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#1665799 - 04/24/11 01:31 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
Kees, what setting should I use for Tune-lab while using your numbers?

Regards,
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

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#1666019 - 04/24/11 09:52 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Thomas Dowell]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Thomas Dowell
Kees, what setting should I use for Tune-lab while using your numbers?

Regards,


Anything you want (perhaps even split-scale mode).

Kees

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#1666021 - 04/24/11 09:56 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Thomas Dowell]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Thomas Dowell
Yes, as Kees said, my numbers take no account of iH, so the numbers can't change. Simply change the default partial selection of your tuning file. There should be an option to "Edit Partials" or "Edit Table of Partials". Any of the notes can be tuned at different partials, but Tunelab won't automatically select the second partial above C7, though you can manually change to nearly any practical partial.

The same is true for my "offset numbers" (but not the original absolute numbers which lock you into a specific partials scheme). The offsets are partial independent.

Kees

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#1667013 - 04/26/11 04:51 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
I tried your numbers, Kees, with the 5'8" Knabe. I afraid the numbers didn't make it out of the temperament. F3-A3 was not as fast as G3-B3, and the A#3-D4 third was too wide. The equal beating fifth/fourth checks were fairly close, but the overall temperament was much stronger than I would expect EBVT III.
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

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#1667047 - 04/26/11 05:29 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Thomas Dowell]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Thomas Dowell
I tried your numbers, Kees, with the 5'8" Knabe. I afraid the numbers didn't make it out of the temperament. F3-A3 was not as fast as G3-B3, and the A#3-D4 third was too wide. The equal beating fifth/fourth checks were fairly close, but the overall temperament was much stronger than I would expect EBVT III.


Sorry to have wasted your time. I was experimenting with stronger versions of EBVT and temporarily made some changes in my program and forgot to revert before I computed your numbers.

I can send you the correct numbers if you are still willing to try.

Kees

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#1667117 - 04/26/11 07:29 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
Ah! That makes sense. It wasn't a waste of time, just not what I was expecting. I used those numbers to pitch correct the piano, so I got to play it with the unisons pulled in quickly before trying to fine tune. I will say, C-major sounded truly amazing with that temperament!

If you could, could you send me EBVT numbers when you get a chance? If you still do the completely custom method, I would be most interested in that, but please don't feel compelled to change things around on my account.

Thank You!
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

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#1667156 - 04/26/11 09:32 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Thomas Dowell]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
OK, I sent them again. That was Bill's EBWT you tuned there.

Kees

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#1667226 - 04/27/11 12:56 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
OK, I sent them again. That was Bill's EBWT you tuned there.

PS. I sent you the offset data rather than the completely customized data because I believe the latter would be a last resort option if the offset idea (due to you) does not work.

I don't really see a program to compute EBVT3 offsets absolutely with a rigid stretching scheme (my original plan) as practical. But a collection of offset files for a suite of pianos can be distributed just as a bunch of tunelab templates.

Cheers,
Kees

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#1670700 - 05/03/11 02:41 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Hi guys,

I've been very busy, and will be for the remainder of the week. I've tuned aurally, mainly concert work for the last week or so, so I haven't had that much time to check the numbers. I will get back on track with that as soon as I can!
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1677887 - 05/14/11 11:23 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
It's been a while!

Kees: I finally tried your new numbers on my own piano, the Nordiska 5'5" grand. The scaling in not perfect, but fairly consistent in the treble. I used them for the treble, and they worked very well. There were two small tweaks in the temperament, F#3 was slightly sharp, and A#3 was slightly flat, but these were very small adjustments. A4 ended up being a little flat as well. Instead of being a pure 6:3 octave, it seemed to be a nearly pure 4:2 octave. In this case it was no big deal to adjust it sharp, because I had started by floating pitch about 1 cent flat.

Other than that, the numbers worked just as good, probably even a little better than mine for the treble.

I tuned the bass aurally, as I will explain in a bit.

To set the tuning curve for the treble, I did the following:

Tune F3-A4 with auto 6:3/4:1 settings.

Set Tunelab to E6, and play E4 (4th partial) and A4 (3rd partial), then adjusting so that E4 reads just as sharp as A4 does flat.

Tune A4-E6.

Set Tunelab to C7, and play F5 (3rd partial). Adjust overall treble stretch so that F5 reads as pure.

I chose to set E6, as this note falls very close to the middle between A4 and C8, and I chose C7, based on the comment that Patrick made that he wants wide 12th from C7 onward.

This method is based on the assumption that the offsets are absolute in their accuracy from an "ideal tuning curve", and hopefully this would be a more consistent method than simply relying on the program's inharmonicity model.

When I tried to develop a method of imitating this matching for the bass, I came up empty and just tuned the bass aurally.

Any ideas on using a similar method in the bass? What are the exact parameters from A2 down?
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

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#2291927 - 06/19/14 04:55 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Thomas Dowell]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Reviving this old thread.

There never seemed to be a firm conclusion, or?

I would like to use TuneLab to tune my 120 cm (47") Nordiska upright in EBVT III. The tenor break is between D#3 and E3.

I primarily play Bach so C2-C6 is much more important to me than octaves 0, 1 and (the rest of 6), 7 and 8. I don't know if I can get better octaves 2 to 5 (and C6) by compromising the extreme octaves? Just a thought.

Anyway, can someone summarize for me all the steps I need to do to make the best EBVT III .tun for my piano?

I read the entire thread, but it feels like the thread was never concluded properly.
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2292842 - 06/21/14 04:02 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Anyone?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2293158 - 06/21/14 08:06 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Ryan Hassell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 480
Loc: Farmington, MO
This is the easiest way. Robert Scott (creator of Tunelab) told me to do it this way. Take samples as your normally would, let Tunelab determine the tuning curve and then click on the "unequal temperaments" and select EBVT 3. What you are doing is layering the EBVT 3 offsets on top of the Tunelab generated tuning curve for that piano. This is how I tune every piano. I've been tuning since 2007 and 100% of my customers have been very happy. I don't know if it gets it as good as when done aurally, because the EVBT3 is designed to be tuned aurally, but it will still sound better than ET.

Hope this helps!
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#2293720 - 06/23/14 05:04 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
I guess that is the way to do it today using only TuneLab. But as I understand from this thread, some of the guys were able to make an even better .tun file matching Bill's intentions and the iH of the particular piano even better, somehow. Do I have to send my .tun file to DoelKees or something?


Edited by pinkfloydhomer (06/23/14 09:52 AM)
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2293888 - 06/23/14 01:52 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
I guess that is the way to do it today using only TuneLab. But as I understand from this thread, some of the guys were able to make an even better .tun file matching Bill's intentions and the iH of the particular piano even better, somehow. Do I have to send my .tun file to DoelKees or something?

Sure, send me your tun file by email and I'll run my program on it and send you the result.

Kees

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#2293892 - 06/23/14 02:00 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Okay, but I just need to understand several things:

1) The .tun file I send to you, is it just a fresh new tuning, my iH measurements and then I choose Bremmer EBVT-III in the "Non-equal temperaments" menu, or how exactly do I make the .tun file for you? And is it better if you get a lot of iH-readings instead of just C1,C2,C3,C4,C5?

2) What is the difference between your method and the method of the other guy in the thread, and which one is best?

In other words: What exactly do I have to do to get the best possible EBVT-III with TuneLab on my particular piano?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2293907 - 06/23/14 02:29 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
Okay, but I just need to understand several things:

1) The .tun file I send to you, is it just a fresh new tuning, my iH measurements and then I choose Bremmer EBVT-III in the "Non-equal temperaments" menu, or how exactly do I make the .tun file for you? And is it better if you get a lot of iH-readings instead of just C1,C2,C3,C4,C5?

2) What is the difference between your method and the method of the other guy in the thread, and which one is best?

In other words: What exactly do I have to do to get the best possible EBVT-III with TuneLab on my particular piano?


It's a long time ago I did this and I forgot the details. But if you just send me your normal tun file that you now use for you piano I'll send you a computed EBVT tun file to try out.

Kees

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#2303952 - 07/19/14 08:04 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Okay, will do later today.

How much closer to real EBVT-III will your .tun file be compared to if I just choose EBVT-III inside TuneLab?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2304332 - 07/20/14 10:08 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Here is my .tun file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5fso5scduq43rf/nordiska20140605tabpro.tun

I have yet to understand several things:

1) How will your (DoelKees) version differ from the other guys version?

2) How will it differ from the stock TuneLab version?

3) Will it affect the temperament octave compared to the stock TuneLab version?

4) Will it afect the octaves compared to the stock TuneLab version?

5) How do I use the version you send me?

I tuned my piano in stock TuneLab EBVT-III yesterday. It sounds pretty great already smile
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2304580 - 07/20/14 10:38 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
Here is my .tun file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5fso5scduq43rf/nordiska20140605tabpro.tun

I have yet to understand several things:

1) How will your (DoelKees) version differ from the other guys version?

2) How will it differ from the stock TuneLab version?

3) Will it affect the temperament octave compared to the stock TuneLab version?

4) Will it afect the octaves compared to the stock TuneLab version?

5) How do I use the version you send me?

I tuned my piano in stock TuneLab EBVT-III yesterday. It sounds pretty great already smile

Result below. 1) Don't know 2) Different pitches 3) Yes 4) Yes 5) load it and tune.

Kees
--
IHCon C1 0.000
IHCon D1 0.000
IHCon E1 0.000
IHCon G1 0.000
IHCon C2 0.000
IHCon D2 0.000
IHCon E2 0.000
IHCon G2 0.000
IHCon C3 0.000
IHCon D3 0.000
IHCon E3 0.000
IHCon G3 0.000
IHCon C4 0.000
IHCon D4 0.000
IHCon E4 0.000
IHCon G4 0.000
IHCon C5 0.000
IHCon D5 0.000
IHCon E5 0.000
IHCon G5 0.000
IHCon C6 0.000
IHCon D6 0.000
IHCon E6 0.000
IHCon G6 0.000
IHCon C7 0.000
A0 6 0.0 -23.25
A#0 6 0.0 -18.99
B0 6 0.0 -19.53
C1 6 0.0 -14.66
C#1 6 0.0 -14.97
D1 6 0.0 -13.99
D#1 6 0.0 -11.87
E1 6 0.0 -12.89
F1 6 0.0 -8.32
F#1 6 0.0 -9.54
G1 6 0.0 -7.16
G#1 6 0.0 -7.24
A1 6 0.0 -7.93
A#1 6 0.0 -5.20
B1 6 0.0 -6.79
C2 6 0.0 1.01
C#2 6 0.0 -0.59
D2 6 0.0 -0.14
D#2 6 0.0 0.81
E2 6 0.0 -0.89
F2 4 0.0 -0.28
F#2 4 0.0 -2.04
G2 4 0.0 0.54
G#2 4 0.0 -0.64
A2 4 0.0 -0.92
A#2 4 0.0 0.74
B2 4 0.0 -1.04
C3 4 0.0 1.97
C#3 4 0.0 0.15
D3 4 0.0 1.53
D#3 4 0.0 1.94
E3 4 0.0 0.52
F3 2 0.0 0.05
F#3 2 0.0 -1.63
G3 2 0.0 1.73
G#3 2 0.0 -0.32
A3 2 0.0 -1.04
A#3 2 0.0 1.72
B3 2 0.0 -0.55
C4 2 0.0 3.16
C#4 2 0.0 -1.33
D4 2 0.0 0.79
D#4 2 0.0 1.68
E4 2 0.0 0.10
F4 2 0.0 2.44
F#4 2 0.0 0.49
G4 2 0.0 3.50
G#4 2 0.0 2.49
A4 1 0.0 0.00
A#4 1 0.0 1.57
B4 1 0.0 -0.24
C5 1 0.0 4.14
C#5 1 0.0 2.17
D5 1 0.0 3.47
D#5 1 0.0 3.30
E5 1 0.0 2.49
F5 1 0.0 3.82
F#5 1 0.0 1.97
G5 1 0.0 5.63
G#5 1 0.0 2.49
A5 1 0.0 3.34
A#5 1 0.0 5.33
B5 1 0.0 3.58
C6 1 0.0 6.80
C#6 1 0.0 3.79
D6 1 0.0 6.58
D#6 1 0.0 6.77
E6 1 0.0 6.08
F6 1 0.0 8.40
F#6 1 0.0 6.92
G6 1 0.0 11.04
G#6 1 0.0 10.01
A6 1 0.0 11.00
A#6 1 0.0 12.31
B6 1 0.0 11.66
C7 1 0.0 15.22
C#7 1 0.0 14.07
D7 1 0.0 17.38
D#7 1 0.0 16.61
E7 1 0.0 17.58
F7 1 0.0 20.27
F#7 1 0.0 19.57
G7 1 0.0 24.20
G#7 1 0.0 22.40
A7 1 0.0 25.59
A#7 1 0.0 28.16
B7 1 0.0 28.53
C8 1 0.0 33.01


Edited by DoelKees (07/20/14 10:45 PM)

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#2304582 - 07/20/14 10:49 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
PS pinkfloyd: These are the offsets I prefer to use for Bach, you may want to try it.

C 4.19
C# -0.56
D 1.40
D# 1.68
E -1.40
F 5.59
F# -0.84
G 2.79
G# -0.28
A 0.00
A# 3.63
B -1.12

Kees

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#2304665 - 07/21/14 03:13 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Thanks.
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2304667 - 07/21/14 03:18 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
PS pinkfloyd: These are the offsets I prefer to use for Bach, you may want to try it.

C 4.19
C# -0.56
D 1.40
D# 1.68
E -1.40
F 5.59
F# -0.84
G 2.79
G# -0.28
A 0.00
A# 3.63
B -1.12

Kees


I mostly play Bach, thanks!

Can I somehow apply those offsets to the .tun you gave me? Shouldn't you then give me another of your special .tun files taking these offsets into account for all octaves? Or will these offsets just work as an ordinary unequal temperament in TuneLab?

Thanks in advance.
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2304674 - 07/21/14 03:47 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
PS pinkfloyd: These are the offsets I prefer to use for Bach, you may want to try it.

C 4.19
C# -0.56
D 1.40
D# 1.68
E -1.40
F 5.59
F# -0.84
G 2.79
G# -0.28
A 0.00
A# 3.63
B -1.12

Kees


I mostly play Bach, thanks!

Can I somehow apply those offsets to the .tun you gave me? Shouldn't you then give me another of your special .tun files taking these offsets into account for all octaves? Or will these offsets just work as an ordinary unequal temperament in TuneLab?

Thanks in advance.

These offsets are to be used as an ordinary unequal temperament in TuneLab, nothing to do with the ebvt3 .tun file.

Kees

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#2304675 - 07/21/14 03:53 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Okay, thanks. Does that temperament have a name or does it resemble some wellknown temperament?

On a related note: Which key is the most colored (unjust, unpure) in EBVT-III?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2305086 - 07/21/14 09:14 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
Okay, thanks. Does that temperament have a name or does it resemble some wellknown temperament?

On a related note: Which key is the most colored (unjust, unpure) in EBVT-III?

I call it "my 1/14th comma Bach temperament". It is close to Neidhardt 2. C# has widest M3 in EBVT3.

Kees

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