Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2304238 - 07/19/14 11:58 PM Sanding/shaping hammer
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
As I told to sand, re-shape the hammer for making voice mellower.

Is this necessary? If the sand to smooth striking point, the strike mark come back soon. High treble even worse, the felt is too thin to sand.

Comment about sanding hammer welcomed.

Thank you.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#2304251 - 07/20/14 12:43 AM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21673
Loc: Oakland
Sanding hammers has a number of uses. In new hammers, it removes irregularities in the felt which were either there to begin with or a result of being clamped in the cauls. It also mates the strings to the hammers. In lacquered hammers, it removes irregularities in the lacquering. In old hammers, it removes the grooves, especially the corners of them, which is hardened from wear and makes the tone quite harsh.

When there is not enough felt to sand, the hammers need replacing.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2304253 - 07/20/14 12:57 AM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Weiyan


Is this necessary? Comment about sanding hammer welcomed.

deleting grooves
http://youtu.be/sf1LHhRMwhg
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2304257 - 07/20/14 01:08 AM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1400
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I agree with BDB. If sanding old hammers creates more harsh tone, the piano would benefit from new hammers.

You can try steam voicing though after sanding.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2304373 - 07/20/14 11:41 AM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 702
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Here's a little additional information: Filing Hammers. Best wishes, Chuck Behm
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

Top
#2304377 - 07/20/14 11:53 AM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1411
For institutional/high-use settings, and in an effort to preserve the felt and the life of the hammers, one should first do basic voicing [primarily in and around the string marks] before shaping--this reduces the overall amount of felt that is removed. Hammer shaping is necessary for great tone: it is an ongoing maintenance procedure that never ends (i.e., the string marks will always come back if the piano is played).
_________________________
Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2304380 - 07/20/14 11:59 AM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 768
Loc: Seattle
I think it is also wise to choose a hammer that will "wear well." Hammers innately only get harder with use. Using a hammer that isn't a hard, hot pressed hammer to begin with, in my opinion, generally works better in heavier use situations.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

Top
#2304396 - 07/20/14 12:40 PM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
sand only if there is enough "meat", if not just help the string marks to be less large and voice around, or even, voice only while keeping the imprints large, they will damp the high frequencies but will understand how to voice for more resiliency. needle around the crown to soften the external of the imprints , then a little low under 9 if it help,(do not if it does not) then lower under the crown to unpack hardened felt.

I like relatively frequent moderate filing.

Using some carbon paper to visualize better hammer contact in the end , on less important pianos it helps to gain time (cannot be cleaned well in the imprints)

the large and hard imprints are breaking strings and avoid the tone to be produced nicely.
Needling does the same as sanding, almost, in that case, the outer part is turned to be inconsistent, but will damp some hardness at the same time some partials are damped.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2304397 - 07/20/14 12:44 PM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
A single light stroke with 80 grit can help you before tuning.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2304412 - 07/20/14 01:07 PM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2194
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
From about middle C down to the lowest notes-a softer, lighter hammer produces a better sound when there are some definite string marks. This also produces a better range of tone color from the shift pedal. In the treble, once the grooves get deeper than the string diameter, a light shaping to reduce that helps tone. Treble hammers with grooves deeper than the string diameter sound worst when you are playing soft because the felt on the sides slightly damps the strings motion after the hammer has actually left the string.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2304420 - 07/20/14 01:52 PM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3613
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
What about if you need to go the other way? My partner's piano sounds too mellow, almost dull. The hammers have no grooves to speak of, but they are a very round shape. It's a Yamaha U2 upright. My piano is a larger U3 but is considerably brighter and she would like her piano to sound more like mine. The hammer felt feels more or less the same hardness as my hammers. I've tested this with needles. Should the hammers be given a more pointed, egg shaped profile to restore the higher partial content?

Top
#2304435 - 07/20/14 02:40 PM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2194
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Shaping the hammers to reduce the mass will increase brightness and dynamics.

You could remove the same note hammer assemblies from both yours and your friends piano and weigh them on a sensitive gram scale. If yours are lighter, that tells you a lot.

If she decides to get some tone regulation done-you would do well to employ a technician who is skilled in hammer shaping to do the actual work.

Yamaha hammers usually get bright quickly when played so if it is now dull in the bass and middle-I would proceed carefully-because it will likely brighten up after 100 hours or so of playing. If the dullness is from about note 55to88-reducing the hammer mass will significantly improve tone.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2304534 - 07/20/14 08:00 PM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: A443]
davidglenn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/14
Posts: 29
Loc: North Carolina
Are you saying basic voicing (needling) before re-shaping would reduce amount of felt, helping preserve some of the life of the hammer? Does it make the felt raise in that area? I thought re-shaping then voicing was normal. I didn't know there was a benefit to needle first. I have a piano to do this week I will give this method a try.
_________________________
David Glenn
Piano tuner/ pianist
1970 Baldwin R Grand
1952 Baldwin M Baby Grand
1922 fully restored Estey 6' Grand
1910 restored Estey Upright
Yamaha PSR-750

Top
#2304583 - 07/20/14 10:53 PM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: davidglenn]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1411
Originally Posted By: davidglenn
Are you saying basic voicing (needling) before re-shaping would reduce amount of felt, helping preserve some of the life of the hammer?
Yes.

Originally Posted By: davidglenn
Does it make the felt raise in that area?
Yes.

Originally Posted By: davidglenn
I thought re-shaping then voicing was normal.
Yes. I think it probably is, but this levels the hammer flat, then the voicing puffs certain areas backup again, and then the final shaping takes more off.

Beware: voicing directly down in the string marks will make a dramatic change, so please proceed with caution. The front portion of the hammer--at the string marks--is more sensitive to fff power/colour <----I recommend staying clear of this area. A better approach is to insert the needles at the una corda position, and angling under the string marks--which begins the una corda voicing procedure.
_________________________
Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2304594 - 07/20/14 11:33 PM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21673
Loc: Oakland
You need to reshape hammers before the action can be regulated properly, and then you can begin to work on voicing. Unless the grooves are minimized, you cannot set the let-off properly, and all the other measurements stem from that.

After that comes voicing. As with all voicing procedures, different techniques under different circumstances will give different results. You have to do it several times to begin to figure out what to do to get the results that you want.

Just as one should learn how to replace a shank or a string when one learns to tune pianos, one should learn to replace a set of hammers when one learns to deal with hammers by sanding and other voicing techniques. Eventually, you will come across a piano where your best efforts are beyond the condition of the piano. Sometimes you may cause this yourself, but even more often, you will run into pianos where there is not enough hammer felt to work with. Heavily worn hammers can have no felt on the top notes, or less obviously, can be worn down to the point where the felt is saturated with glue. There is nothing you can do except replace the hammer then, if you want good tone from the piano.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2305127 - 07/21/14 10:59 PM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2194
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
A443's advice about doing some needling prior to reshaping is good. But I wouldn't go much higher than note 55 with it. But if the hammers are like the old Steinway hammers-light and soft-I wouldn't do it at all.

If the hammers are like most of the heavier, dense felt hammers made since about 1965-A443's procedure may well result in a more even tone and a smoother shape.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2305226 - 07/22/14 06:59 AM Re: Sanding/shaping hammer [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
The idea to wake up the felt, then layers are more easy to work with.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha UX vs WX
by goldmund
10/25/14 11:34 AM
Need help with chords
by Shirz
10/25/14 07:52 AM
Which are the best forums for piano technicians and DIYers?
by Withindale
10/25/14 03:17 AM
Prelude
by noobpianist90
10/25/14 01:55 AM
Red Striped Screws and Fancy Nuts
by chernobieff
10/24/14 11:57 PM
Who's Online
120 registered (accordeur, 0987654321, anotherscott, A Guy, Anne'sson, 31 invisible), 1562 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76653 Members
42 Forums
158488 Topics
2327551 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission