Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2304025 - 07/19/14 01:45 PM Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making
gynnis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 121
Loc: Florida, Connecticut
In 1927 Albert B. Vant published a short book on "Piano Scale Making". As an example piano he illustrates the design process with a 5' grand piano. He states that

" A 5 foot Grand of which we will make a scale has been made and pronounced good, so the figures given for dimensions are reliable"

Does anyone know if this piano was ever produced and by what company?
_________________________
Seiler 206, Chickering 145, Estey 2 manual reed organ, Fudge clavichord, Zuckerman single harpsichord, Technics P-30, Roland RD-100.

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#2304110 - 07/19/14 04:57 PM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: gynnis]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Del can probably answer this better than most of the rest of us. But if my memory serves-Vant either designed or inspired the Brambach. Pretty bad piano in my experience. Gives the Yamaha GH1 a bit of "competition".
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2304196 - 07/19/14 08:39 PM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: gynnis]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5296
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: gynnis
In 1927 Albert B. Vant published a short book on "Piano Scale Making". As an example piano he illustrates the design process with a 5' grand piano. He states that

" A 5 foot Grand of which we will make a scale has been made and pronounced good, so the figures given for dimensions are reliable"

Does anyone know if this piano was ever produced and by what company?

In the preface to the book Vant states that a piano of this size has been built and "pronounced good." Whatever that means.

I've come across a couple of pianos that are very similar to this design but none that I would say are the same. It is a little difficult to tell just what Vant's design really was like. He furnishes a number of "sketches" throughout the text to illustrate various points. Unfortunately these sketches do not always resemble the numbers he is giving in the text.

I've been working on republishing the book with new typesetting but keeping the original text and sketches intact. Included in the new edition (along with the original sketches) will be drawings that more accurately reflect the actual numbers in the text. The differences in some cases are significant.

I don't know that I have ever seen a piano of this design although I've seen some that come really close. I suspect the design he presents in the book represent a very generic design of the era and not a specific piano. We are told only that a prototype had been built; nothing is said about it being in production.

As designs for short pianos go it's not all that bad. I've seen a lot worse.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#2304197 - 07/19/14 08:40 PM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5296
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Del can probably answer this better than most of the rest of us. But if my memory serves-Vant either designed or inspired the Brambach. Pretty bad piano in my experience. Gives the Yamaha GH1 a bit of "competition".

The GH1 is one of those that is a whole lot worse....

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#2304288 - 07/20/14 06:33 AM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: gynnis]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7544
Loc: France
That really seem to be challenging to design the smaller model(s)

Most parameters are at their limit, and then you need to have the most ideal scale and strike line.

Today with softer steel available some common defects can be lowered.

BTW can the soundboard be installed so there is no angle (strings parallel to the key bed?)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2304318 - 07/20/14 08:43 AM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: Olek]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5296
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Olek
That really seem to be challenging to design the smaller model(s)

Most parameters are at their limit, and then you need to have the most ideal scale and strike line.

Today with softer steel available some common defects can be lowered.

BTW can the soundboard be installed so there is no angle (strings parallel to the key bed?)

There is little margin for error in the design of small pianos.

As you say, there are softer steel wires available to avoid some common defects. But it is far preferable to avoid those design defects in the first place. While they are inherent to the traditional approach to the design of smaller pianos most of them can be completely avoided with entirely new design.

Yes, soundboard installation can be accomplished in a way that allows the string plane to be parallel to the keybed.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#2304327 - 07/20/14 09:08 AM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: gynnis]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7544
Loc: France
Thanks Del. Does it mean the inner rim is artistic shaped, or bridges or both?

I wonder how accurate that can be done with traditional methods and Grey iron plate.

I understand Yamaha for instance have no problem with that, but a hand fitting?

BTW you do focus on stress factor much, or last?

Regards


Edited by Olek (07/20/14 09:11 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2304331 - 07/20/14 10:04 AM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: Olek]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5296
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Olek
Thanks Del. Does it mean the inner rim is artistic shaped, or bridges or both?

I wonder how accurate that can be done with traditional methods and Grey iron plate. ...

BTW you do focus on stress factor much, or last?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the inner rim is artistic shaped." Certainly I consider aesthetic art to be a part of design but I doubt that is what you are asking.

Gray iron castings can be made fairly consistently. More to the point, in modern manufacturing the important points can be milled using precisely controlled CNC machining workstations.

I try to not "focus" on any one aspect of an overall design. Everything is a compromise and I'm after what I consider to be the best balance of those compromises.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#2304341 - 07/20/14 10:49 AM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: gynnis]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7544
Loc: France
Del I mean, even if the outer shape of the board can be done flat (with only the front part curved), as a consistent bridge height will create different plane angles, I suppose the liner (inner rim) have to follow a precise shape if the goal is to obtain a string plane parallel to the key bed.

Actually I thought that the best idea would be to have a 1 degree slant +-, then it allows for a 90 degrés rake angle while leaving the small over centering that is said to help let off end and réengagement.

I know stress factor is just "important" but it can be lowered so much under limits it have to be taken in account seriously (hence softer wire)
It also show something of the string resiliency/impedance, so it seem to me as a good analysis tool.

Regards.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2304428 - 07/20/14 02:30 PM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: gynnis]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
For small piano design today, the possibilities that the Hybrid wire types offer to produce scales that have the clarity, warmth and power only found on larger scales is new. Being able to scale with tri-chord unisons lower in the compass both plain and wound is the way to go. Also going lower in the compass with the bi-chord wounds helps tremendously.

There is a definite need for developing a way to make lightly loaded strings more uniform and consistent from one to the other. Our ears are very good at not liking un-matched strings as you go higher in the compass. The typical wound string irregularities that are barely noticed below note 20 become very pronounced above note 25.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2305155 - 07/22/14 12:44 AM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: Olek]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5296
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Olek
Del I mean, even if the outer shape of the board can be done flat (with only the front part curved), as a consistent bridge height will create different plane angles, I suppose the liner (inner rim) have to follow a precise shape if the goal is to obtain a string plane parallel to the key bed.

With new construction there are several possibilities. One common method is to simply cut the top of the inner rim and the bellyrail flat. The pre-crowned soundboard assembly is glued to this. The parameter of the soundboard assembly is pressed flat. The board is crowned up in the normal manner but with some bending stress around the inside of the inner rim. This decreases once string bearing is applied to the bridges.

Another method—primarily used by manufacturers that press the inner and outer rims as a single unit—is to leave the top of the inner rim flat and crown the bellyrail. Some manufacturers bevel the top edge of the inner rim in a rather useless attempt to “support crown.” I fail to see how crowning the bellyrail alone does much good and beveling the inner rim does little, if anything, to support crown. The panel (and the ribs) are too thin and too flexible.

A third method is to crown the top of the inner rim and the bellyrail to match the crown of the soundboard assembly. Or, more preferably, the crown of the soundboard assembly after string bearing is applied to the bridges and the assembly is in a somewhat depressed state.

If anything is to be done the third method has the best possibility of contributing something to the performance of the piano. Although, having worked with all three methods, I’m skeptical that any one of them is clearly superior.

Bridges in most modern piano construction are planned to a height matching the string frame. Or they are made to a standardized height that works within the allowed tolerances of the string frame casting. So theoretically you could achieve any string plane angle you wanted just by manipulating the height of the bridges—as long as the bridge height is neither too high nor too low—and the elevations of the string frame cross sections.

We like to talk in absolutes about each of the different design and construction parameters of the piano when, in fact, everything is interactive.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#2305209 - 07/22/14 05:33 AM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: gynnis]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7544
Loc: France
Thank you Del, the shaping of the front support seem to make sense to avoid inutile stress while the high spot of the soundboard is not far from the edge.
I have some trouble to see the difference in terms of compression and useful/vs detracting stress with the installed pzanel. bluethner prefer the cylindrical shape for those reasons, and indeed their panels accept tons of dynamics without saturation.

Lenticular shape add stress in all dimensions.

I was said that using hide glue for ribbing and SB installation provide slightly better results, (compared side to side) may be only because of the more hard glue, also more impregnated in the wood while closing all micro holes better than Titebond.

I suggest that he light slant of the inner rim helps gluing more than crown.
regards, thanks again.


Edited by Olek (07/22/14 05:35 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2305325 - 07/22/14 11:52 AM Re: Albert Vant's Piano Scale Making [Re: gynnis]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
What I have often noticed is that the best woodworking decisions in piano construction will often result in the best acoustic reasons.


Edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT (07/22/14 11:53 AM)
Edit Reason: correct grammer
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Digital piano key noise
by bigsmile
09/21/14 03:15 AM
Hans von Bulow's piano
by phantomFive
09/21/14 01:57 AM
Rubinstein teaching style
by phantomFive
09/21/14 01:52 AM
Question regarding "technique"
by Francisco Scalco
09/21/14 12:29 AM
How about this Knabe Studio Piano?
by Paul678
09/20/14 11:49 PM
Who's Online
53 registered (aesop, bennevis, bigsmile, bhmpower, Bierce, 13 invisible), 908 Guests and 21 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76260 Members
42 Forums
157662 Topics
2315758 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission