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#2305392 - 07/22/14 01:39 PM Please Help!!
OliviaWalter Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/22/14
Posts: 3
Hi!
I have played the piano since 7 years but I think I am still not very good at it. I want to improve but I don’t know how. I haven’t been very interested in playing the piano for about 3 of these 7 years, and my teacher that I had 6 years was not good either, she just gave me a sheet and played it for me, then on my next lesson she would give me a new sheet and so one. My teacher now is a bit better but still not really interested in getting me to improve!
My question now is: how do I improve? just by playing different pieces? I wanted to try hanon but I read that it is bad for piano players because it will only teach you technique and you will only play stiff…
The last piece that I played was: Sonatina 1 by m. Clementi op 36 nr 1
And now I am struggling with: Mozart’s theme and variations of “ah, vous dirai-je, maman”
But I really want to improve and maybe try a little jazz too (I have only played classical pieces).
I would like to know what kind of exercise I can do and how to improve!
I am actually really bad at holding tempo too, I have tried to play with an metronome but I always kind of delete the sound of the metronome in my head and just play as usual getting slowly faster and faster maybe you have some advises how I can improve holding the tempo?
And if you have some good book I would super happy if you could recommend them too!
And how many hours should I practice daily?
I would be super happy if you could help me! (and sorry for my incredible bad English!!)

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#2305393 - 07/22/14 01:41 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6247
Loc: St. Louis area
While you are looking for a good teacher, practice Czerny and play simple tunes.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2305410 - 07/22/14 02:08 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
joonsang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/13
Posts: 68
ultimately you are playing piano to make pleasant spunding music. record yourself and i guarantee you will know which phrases you need to work on in order to keep the tempo and phrasing of passages down.

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#2305420 - 07/22/14 02:18 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Can you narrow the scope a bit from "how do I get better" to some more specific questions?

The answer to your broad question is simply "practice".
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305425 - 07/22/14 02:25 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: Atrys]
OliviaWalter Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/22/14
Posts: 3
Hi Atrys! With better i mean, playing more complex music, and you are right practice is the right answer but i asked how smile
I wanted to know How i should practice to be efficient better smile

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#2305433 - 07/22/14 02:37 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Colin Thomson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 102
Please, PLEASE find a really good teacher soon! smile

It is a crime against humanity to have someone who really wants to learn with a teacher who is not engaged. Even really good teachers spend far too much time teaching people who don't really want to be there, and they would consider it a treat to have someone like you with a real interest in learning.

Of course, your questions are broad and hard to answer specifically. But please find a good teacher as soon as you can. Someone who appreciates you as a student.
_________________________
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Colin Thomson

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#2305435 - 07/22/14 02:38 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter

I wanted to know How i should practice to be efficient better

The first step would be to find a better teacher only after asking your current one to take you seriously as a student.

Beyond that, it's difficult to help you meaningfully if you cannot ask more specific questions (what specific problems have you identified, etc.)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305459 - 07/22/14 03:19 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: Atrys]
OliviaWalter Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/22/14
Posts: 3
Hi Atrys!
I going to search after a better teacher but that will be hard because i'm visiting a music school and he is the only piano teacher available, because we are only 3 piano students ( piano players are dying frown ) and about my problems:

1. keeping the tempo (extremely bad at it) i'm getting faster and faster
2. finger postions, like i said so was my teacher not really interested to teach me how to play so I teached myself and if a totally beginner teach herself how to play, then there will not be very good finger positions frown but it was easy for me to learn M. Clementis Sonatina 1 because some of the finger postions where writed on the sheet, which was really helpful! so because of that issue I am kind of clumsy bumping my fingers on the piano, i have really small hands too, i can only reach an octav!

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#2305463 - 07/22/14 03:27 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Art_Vandelay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Stillwater, OK
As far as tempo is concerned, you can simply use the metronome, or even better imo learn to count in your head. You can subdivide the beat depending on the tempo of the piece, ex: 1&2&3&4&. Subdividing will help you notice when the tempo is fluctuating.
_________________________
"If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis."

"If life gives you lemonade, make lemons. Life'll be all like whaaaaaat?" - Phil Dunphy

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#2305465 - 07/22/14 03:33 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter

1. keeping the tempo (extremely bad at it) i'm getting faster and faster

I'm going to guess that as the music gets more complex, the more difficult it is for you to keep tempo at any bpm. Your gradual outpacing of the metronome means your brain has consolidated the motor substrates responsible for play far enough from your pre-frontal cortex that the amount of load on your executive function is very little. This is actually a good sign. All that's left is to acquire an "internal clock" that is also apart from your executive function such that it is under your control. The sum of these things is a balanced central nervous system when applied to this particular task.

There are a bunch of ways to do this. A extremely effective approach is to ditch the metronome for now, and focus on keeping a steady rhythm using a part of your body such as your left leg. If you can manage this very comfortably, your "internal metronome" will be calibrated enough to reintroduce the real metronome. Make sure to make periodic checks with the real metronome so that your brain doesn't think it's keeping a steady pace when it really isn't.

In short, make your internal metronome primary over the real metronome.

Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter

2. finger postions

Intuitive fingerings come from steady practice of a wide range of patterns; principal here are scales and arpeggios. Sight-reading practice also does wonders for establishing intuitive fingerings given new music.

In short, better fingerings will come from learning as much music as possible; you actually don't have to pay too much conscious mind to getting the fingerings right: with enough exposure to new music, your brain will make the proper connections on its own, but it's healthy to get things right from the get-go.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305612 - 07/22/14 08:27 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Derulux Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: Philadelphia
First, let me say that almost any tool, used properly, will help and not hinder your progress. (This includes Hanon.)

Next, since it seems like you're interested in learning from a good teacher, I would recommend two things: post in the piano teacher's forum asking for teacher recommendations, and let everyone know where you live (city, st, country only to protect your privacy) so they can narrow down the search. There are plenty of people who can help you get on a better path. smile
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2305645 - 07/22/14 09:43 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 441
Loc: Northern CA
Olivia, dance. It helps with pulse as well as gives you an understanding of tempo.
_________________________
Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci

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#2305651 - 07/22/14 10:01 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: Parks]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8933
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Parks
Olivia, dance. It helps with pulse as well as gives you an understanding of tempo.

I gotta agree with this! Even my organ prof back in the UK thought it helped me in playing hymns. (And I think I play hymns very well. wink )

Nothing refreshes me like a visit to the Seattle clubs on a weekend. (No help with drugs, thank-you.) Dancing invigorates me, I feel like a million dollars, and cannot wait to get to the piano the next day.
_________________________
Jason

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#2305661 - 07/22/14 10:29 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter

1. keeping the tempo (extremely bad at it) i'm getting faster and faster
2. finger postions, like i said so was my teacher not really interested to teach me how to play so I teached myself and if a totally beginner teach herself how to play,


1. It sounds like improper coordination causing tension which must be released, hence the rushing.
2. The reason for 1.

Solution: playing pieces is NOT the goal at this point. The goal is to play using the best combination of movements.


Edited by faulty_Damper (07/22/14 10:30 PM)

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#2305684 - 07/22/14 11:52 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12200
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
The Twinkle Variations are a far stretch coming from the Clementi 36/1. If there is no way you can study with a good teacher where you live, you may want to consider Skype lessons with a better teacher, or no teacher at all. Haven't you wasted enough time and good money on bad teachers?



Edited by Morodiene (07/22/14 11:53 PM)
_________________________
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MTNA member
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2305734 - 07/23/14 02:16 AM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6468
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter
Hi!
I have played the piano since 7 years but I think I am still not very good at it. I want to improve but I don’t know how. I haven’t been very interested in playing the piano for about 3 of these 7 years, and my teacher that I had 6 years was not good either, she just gave me a sheet and played it for me, then on my next lesson she would give me a new sheet and so one. My teacher now is a bit better but still not really interested in getting me to improve!
My question now is: how do I improve? just by playing different pieces? I wanted to try hanon but I read that it is bad for piano players because it will only teach you technique and you will only play stiff…
The last piece that I played was: Sonatina 1 by m. Clementi op 36 nr 1
And now I am struggling with: Mozart’s theme and variations of “ah, vous dirai-je, maman”
But I really want to improve and maybe try a little jazz too (I have only played classical pieces).
I would like to know what kind of exercise I can do and how to improve!
I am actually really bad at holding tempo too, I have tried to play with an metronome but I always kind of delete the sound of the metronome in my head and just play as usual getting slowly faster and faster maybe you have some advises how I can improve holding the tempo?
And if you have some good book I would super happy if you could recommend them too!
And how many hours should I practice daily?
I would be super happy if you could help me! (and sorry for my incredible bad English!!)
Hi Olivia - You might have better luck if you post your questions on both the Piano Teachers Forum and the Adult Beginners Forum.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305735 - 07/23/14 02:20 AM Re: Please Help!! [Re: faulty_Damper]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6468
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter

1. keeping the tempo (extremely bad at it) i'm getting faster and faster
2. finger postions, like i said so was my teacher not really interested to teach me how to play so I teached myself and if a totally beginner teach herself how to play,


Solution: playing pieces is NOT the goal at this point. The goal is to play using the best combination of movements.
Faulty - With all due respect, do you really believe the OP will understand what this means?? smile
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305736 - 07/23/14 02:24 AM Re: Please Help!! [Re: carey]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: carey
Faulty - With all due respect, do you really believe the OP will understand what this means?? smile

If she genuinely wants to improve, then yes. If she's here for moral support, then no. If the latter, then I'm not a therapist.


Edited by faulty_Damper (07/23/14 02:24 AM)

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#2305851 - 07/23/14 10:17 AM Re: Please Help!! [Re: faulty_Damper]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6468
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: carey
Faulty - With all due respect, do you really believe the OP will understand what this means?? smile

If she genuinely wants to improve, then yes. If she's here for moral support, then no. If the latter, then I'm not a therapist.
You're a knowledgeable guy - no question. And it would seem that the OP genuinely wants to improve and isn't simply seeking a therapist. But you are telling a relative beginner (who hasn't had the benefit of good instruction) to play with the "best possible combination of movements" - without explaining or demonstrating what is involved in doing so. I'm not suggesting that you SHOULD explain or demonstrate here (this is an internet forum and you aren't her teacher)- but I'm simply saying that the advice - although good - isn't helpful in this particular situation because the person receiving it probably won't fully understand what it means. That's all. Cheers !! grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305876 - 07/23/14 10:51 AM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
You don't know for certain anyone genuinely wants to improve. Even if they ask for help, that doesn't mean that they want it, like a homeless person asking for help and not handouts.

In this case, it's clearly a mindset/paradigm issue. She's already mentioned she intends to do Hanon, which by itself suggests this paradigm of finger strengthening, excessive and mindless practicing, etc. She could do that all she wants, but she will always be stuck in that paradigm unless she thinks something different. I simply offered a different paradigm.

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#2305897 - 07/23/14 11:35 AM Re: Please Help!! [Re: faulty_Damper]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6468
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
You don't know for certain anyone genuinely wants to improve. Even if they ask for help, that doesn't mean that they want it, like a homeless person asking for help and not handouts.


I'm pretty sure she wants to improve - otherwise she probably wouldn't have made the effort to post here - in a second language.

Originally Posted By: faulty_damper
In this case, it's clearly a mindset/paradigm issue. She's already mentioned she intends to do Hanon, which by itself suggests this paradigm of finger strengthening, excessive and mindless practicing, etc. She could do that all she wants, but she will always be stuck in that paradigm unless she thinks something different. I simply offered a different paradigm.

Actually she said she "wanted" to do Hanon - but decided against it. And yes - you offered a different paradigm - but I'm guessing she'll have no idea what you are proposing without further explanation. Perhaps she can direct that question to her next teacher.


Edited by carey (07/23/14 11:35 AM)
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2306026 - 07/23/14 03:36 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: Derulux]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3623
Originally Posted By: Derulux
First, let me say that almost any tool, used properly, will help and not hinder your progress. (This includes Hanon.)


Not. A bad tool will cause you damage. Bad screwdrives will kill your screws. Bad technique ("lift your fingers high") will hinder your progress. Mechanically drilled technique will make mechanically sounding (non)music.
_________________________

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#2306030 - 07/23/14 03:43 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3623
Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter

My question now is: how do I improve?


Well you just set the only important step: wanting to improve smile

Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter


just by playing different pieces?


No, rather the opposite, polish a piece that you really like till it's as perfect as you can get it. Feedback by a good teacher on other things to improve can help too. Only then proceed with another piece. Make sure you listen to others performing the piece and compare with recording of yourself.

Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter


I wanted to try hanon but I read that it is bad for piano players because it will only teach you technique and you will only play stiff…

Don't do Hanon unless your teacher has a very good reason for it. It will not improve your technique unless you really know what to do with it.

Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter

I am actually really bad at holding tempo too, I have tried to play with an metronome but I always kind of delete the sound of the metronome in my head and just play as usual getting slowly faster and faster maybe you have some advises how I can improve holding the tempo?


Use a metronome.

Originally Posted By: OliviaWalter

And how many hours should I practice daily?


It depends on how much concentration you can leverage. The more concentrated practice you can do, the faster your progress. But not-concentrated practice will work counter productive. Try 1 or 2 hours spread over the day to start with.
_________________________

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#2306102 - 07/23/14 06:32 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: Derulux]
phantomFive Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1770
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Derulux
First, let me say that almost any tool, used properly, will help and not hinder your progress. (This includes Hanon.)

Next, since it seems like you're interested in learning from a good teacher, I would recommend two things: post in the piano teacher's forum asking for teacher recommendations, and let everyone know where you live (city, st, country only to protect your privacy) so they can narrow down the search. There are plenty of people who can help you get on a better path. smile

That's a good point, if she focuses on getting better and works at it, she probably will get better.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2306149 - 07/23/14 07:43 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1277
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Hi Olivia,

You asked about a book. Dover Publications might still reprint some classics on piano playing by Josef and Rosina Lhevinne, Gieseking, Josef Hofmann, and others. For modern books there is Sandor's book on piano playing, and also Joseph Banowetz's books on pedaling and fingering.

And to dig into the past for inspiration, with not all of these items being specifically about piano playing, there is "Chopin: Pianist and Teacher as Seen by his Pupils" [amusing choice of words for the title as one's 'pupils' are used for seeing], "The Piano Masterclasses of Franz Liszt" by August Göllerich, Anton Schindler's "Beethoven as I Knew Him", Romain Rolland's monumentally styled biography of Beethoven, "Franz Liszt: Selected Letters" translated and edited by Adrian Williams, and the letters of Mozart and Beethoven.

Probably you can just check any of these out of the music library.

I hope some of this is of interest or helps!

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#2306193 - 07/23/14 09:43 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: wouter79]
Derulux Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Originally Posted By: Derulux
First, let me say that almost any tool, used properly, will help and not hinder your progress. (This includes Hanon.)


Not. A bad tool will cause you damage. Bad screwdrives will kill your screws. Bad technique ("lift your fingers high") will hinder your progress. Mechanically drilled technique will make mechanically sounding (non)music.

Perhaps this is why I included that wonderful little modifier, "almost". I'm also not sure we could call using a broken tool the same as "using a tool properly". Certainly, if you're considering the proper use of a tool, the first thing you do is don't use a broken tool. Shop 101. wink

I find this more interesting, though:
Quote:
Don't do Hanon unless your teacher has a very good reason for it. It will not improve your technique unless you really know what to do with it.

You disagree with me, and then in the very next post, agree with me. grin
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2307048 - 07/25/14 03:49 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3623
I said bad tool, not broken tool. A top quality screwdriver of the wrong size will also damage your screws.
_________________________

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#2307059 - 07/25/14 04:27 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: OliviaWalter]
phantomFive Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1770
Loc: California
If your hands start hurting while you play Hanon, stop playing. I think people worry a little too much about that around here......
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2307206 - 07/25/14 11:21 PM Re: Please Help!! [Re: wouter79]
Derulux Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: wouter79
I said bad tool, not broken tool. A top quality screwdriver of the wrong size will also damage your screws.

So you did. But I think using a screwdriver that is the wrong size would be a perfect example of using a tool improperly. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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