Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2304885 - 07/21/14 02:48 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Almaviva]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
Thanks Bud.
The only thing is, this is a 2nd-hand piano so the finish you get is what you get, it's ebony or nout. Only thing I could do is hunt about for a mahogany polish Schimmel I'd I suppose their none too common most of them are probably ebony polish, though my mum likes ebony. Only other thing would be to buy a brand new one at like 44,000 or whatever they go for new, I'm told that's what they retail for and I'd say that's about right given it's quality.

There is no way I'm gonna buy or be able to afford a new one, not unless I can get credit for long enough that the monthly payments are within my budget, that'd be like 10-15 years and I don't think you can get credit for that period.

The Weinbach 170 despite it's rather dull cabinet and naff wood finish, sounded really good to me, up top was abit mushy and sloshy sounding, but my tuner assured me once it's played in it will sound magnificent, it's pretty much brand new, though it's been in the showroom for like 10 years or so and hasn't been sold so obviously as others have said it'll need a good goin over and checked for dryness or whatever else.

I dunno, I can't hunt about for yonks, I do want to replace my Newman in the next year or so, I know you should not rush things like this too much, but whatever I buy I will get used to, won't have much choice I'll have to, yes you'd like to get it right as you can, but I'll be asking if I bought the right one whatever I buy, it'll hardly be perfect in every area I'll always find something to moan about, so best to decide on a quality piano that has the sound you most like out of what's available, if I went trying out all the pianos in Jame's warehouse, I'd still be humming and hohing next Christmas, might be the wise thing to do but I'd like to buy something this year, this Schimmel looks promising given what I played on it and looks the best value for money given it's pristine quality and age, I will keep the Weinbach on the sidelinne though, and maybe try some Yamaha's while I'm at it, but I'd like to shave down the number of options because otherwise I'd not make a decision, that's the type a fella I am, always wavering.

Top
(ads 568) Hailun Pianos

 

#2305267 - 07/22/14 09:32 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
Sam it sounds like you are very difficult to please!

The Schimmel is a good piano, exceptionally well made, and that particular example looks pristine. If he's offering it for 18,000 and you have the money, then take it because they cost about 32,000 (the dealer for new Schimmel in the UK is Peregrine's in London, and they have a concert 189T for sale, new, at 31,390), and I'd say that's a good deal.

The Weinbach isn't a 'naff wood finish' it's in Satin Mahogany. The varnish on it is matt finish rather than gloss finish. Regarding the sound being a bit mushy up top - well, that could be something that brightens up with age, or it could be something else inherent in the design of the piano.

James Cameron has a Kawai KG-2 advertised on his website, it's 3750, which is a good price. Kawai is a good piano and this could be well worth a look if you can cope with the faded casework.

If Jamie or James are offering you credit without a deposit (and by deposit I mean like 50% of the price and then the rest over 3 years), then you're doing well. You'll have to see what you can afford according to what level of credit you can get from either of them.

I can't help get the feeling though, that one day we're going to sign in to this forum and we're going to see 'New Steinway Model A, any good?' ;-)

Top
#2305508 - 07/22/14 04:20 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
Haha good one Joe. Nah I don't reckon I'll be posting that very soon, I'm not that daft, I know what I can realistically spend, and that is a no-go for me, atleast for another 20-30 years anyway.

All's I was saying was, the Weinbach looks naff to me, I know it's satin, just the general cabinet design was putting me off, and when your spending money on it, particularly when your own baby grand is almost the look you want and cost you next to nothing, you've a right to huff n' puff all you want, especially when Yamaha's go for that sorta money and look nicer ,well to me anyway.

I know I am not an easy guy to please, I'm hardly ever happy with anything, ask my uncle he'll tell you. I find it funny you have to pay more for the likes of mahogany and rosewood than satin, when you get thousands of older piano's, most of which look nicer to my eyes, and they're all mostly wooden finishes, then again we're talking totally different era here, obviously back then wood was cheaper and more plentiful, nowadays that sorta finish is understandably costlier, not to mention it's desirable, given how you don't see nearly as many wood grained ones about as you do black or white ones. That's not to say it was naff Joe that was just how I felt about it.

Jamie wanted to speak to me today about something, I'll need to give him a bell tomorrow to see what he wants. I probably will just go with the Schimmel, my gut instinct is that, while it might have lacked the warm creaminess of the little Weinbach 170, it just seems the better instrument and looks like it'll last longer and serve me better, and who knows, maybe it will start to really shine once I start playing it, maybe my initial impressions of it weren't the whole story, I didn't play it all that much, so I couldn't get a proper idea of how creamy it was, that and I didn't have the 170 next to it to compare it to, see now that's the pain in the bum, as James told me, you can't really start to get an appreciation for what it'll be like until you have it where your putting it in the house, so maybe it'll be just right when I've got it in the house.

I'm gonna give Jamie a ring and see what he's saying to it, and I'll let you all know what the deal is.

Top
#2306957 - 07/25/14 12:10 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
Hi Guys
Just a quick update, my local tuner Jamie phoned me yesterday, and I told him I had been over at the Edinburgh piano Co and tried this Schimmel grand, plus the bigger Weinbach 192 which didn't really impress us like I expected it to.

He said he was looking out for a Schimmel and expressed an interest in buying one ,so I asked James if he might be willing to sell Jamie the Schimmel since he already gave him the little Weinbach 170. He hasn't came back to me yet be here's hoping because it would be a lot more convenient if I had both side by side to compare, and hey, even if I don't buy it, atleast Jamie will have what he wanted, though he did say I should be able to get one for less than 18,000, so dunno where he's got that from but he obviously knows better than I do.

He asked me again about the Weinbach 170, it is smaller than the Schimmel so I have my doubts, although that was the one that grabbed me at first save for the slight mushy sound above middle C, he said he's gonna voice it for me and then see what I reckon, I probably shouldn't use length as an indication of tone because the 170 didn't sound bad really given it's size but I dunno how It compares with the Schimmel directly because I haven't played both together at the same visit, so it's hard to compare them.

He also said I could come over next week to his Warehouse where he is currently restoring a C. Bechstein, a full restoration, new hammers, felts, board etc, and he says I might want to try that out, he's aiming for about 12,000 seems abit much but if I like it may be a good buy if the restoration is done well, it's a 6 footer so it's probably a Model A or something along that track, he couldn't remember off hand what model it was or it's age but he said to give him a phone next week and I can come and see what else he has.

However he did say he will still keep the Schimmel on the table and if he get's that one I want, I'll have all three, the Weinbach, Bechstein and the Schimmel to compare all in the same shop, though it does look like my sensible option is gonna be the Weinbach, if the Bechstein doesn't suit me, the Schimmel's gonna need a deposit, but I'll see what's what once they're all ready to rock n' roll.


Edited by Sam4 (07/25/14 12:15 PM)

Top
#2307026 - 07/25/14 02:50 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3582
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Sam4
... he is currently restoring a C. Bechstein, a full restoration, new hammers, felts, board etc, and he says I might want to try that out, he's aiming for about 12,000 seems abit much but if I like it may be a good buy if the restoration is done well...


A C Bechstein, full restoration, for 12,000? Seems rather unlikely. More like a partial restoration. Might still be good though. Might be a good move to get an independent technician to have a look at it though - if you are considering buying it. You want to know that the soundboard and bridge are in good shape.

Top
#2307030 - 07/25/14 03:06 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: ando]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
Jamie is a qualified tuner and a technician himself, although your right in saying an independent or 2nd look over is a good idea, dunno I don't really like Bechstein's sound all that much, I'm still tempted by either the Schimmel or the Weinbach, having listened to a few clips on youtube, I reckon it might just be the Weinbach it just sound warmer and well, happier to me really. The schimmel really got me though with it's powerfull sound, but I'm not sure if that'd drive us bonkers if I play softer pop and balad type stuff, the little Weinbach might be better suited to my playing style. Should I be concerned about it only being a 170 or should that be big enough? Seems all the bigger ones I tried just didn't get me the same way, especially in the bass though once I have tried them all again I'll have a better idea.

Jamie's asking about 10,000 or so payin it up no deposit, seems fair enough given it's basically new.

Well, I say new it's been in the warehouse for quite a few years and others have advised me to have it checked for dryness, and other things, but it no doubt already has been if it's prepped for sale. I had my doubts about it's rather plain jane case and matt finish but really, that's not what's important the sound and touch is what it's all about, if I want to get it polished later on, I probably could. It is Rosewood, and the bigger 192cm version was Polished Rosewood and I loved that colour, so I guess you could get it professionally polished if you wanted to. Might not be cheap but I havn't found another 170 in this country in that finish that is close to me.

Top
#2307256 - 07/26/14 04:34 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
You may well indeed get a fully rebuilt bechstein for 12 k. IIt's not impossible but you need to know who did the restoration.

It sounds like the 170 weinbach is for you though.

Top
#2307258 - 07/26/14 04:38 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
Oh don't worry about the polyester - let it grow on you. Polyester finishes age quicker than satin anyway

Top
#2307263 - 07/26/14 05:31 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3582
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: joe80
You may well indeed get a fully rebuilt bechstein for 12 k.


Really, Joe? Is that including a new board - or would that be a refinished board that has had whatever attention it needs? In any case, a full rebuild of such a piano costs quite a bit more here in Australia. Then again, Australia pays more for everything piano related. This is not the country to come to for piano bargains!

Top
#2307285 - 07/26/14 08:51 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
Yes, it's possible in the UK. It's difficult but it's possible. For instance, if you have a core of say a bechstein model L, the 5 feet 6 model, you can have a new soundboard and plank installed, restrung, and the action rebuilt - oh and the frame regilded and refelted, and all the trap work and everything restored - MINUS the case work for around 9000 if you go factory direct. Well it might cost a little more than that but I know people are paying 13 to 17 k for full rebuilds including the case - the variation in price depends on the size of the piano and the finish.

In the UK there are no dealers who have their own workshop capable of soundboard replacement, and therefore they all go third party using either SAP or Piano Ficks in Poland, Steinway in Hamburg or Piano Restorations in Bucks UK. Or they just shim the original board....

Obviously going through a dealer costs more than going factory direct.

I find it surprising that one could go to a dealer and buy a fully rebuilt bechstein for less than 20 000 but workshop direct it is absolutely possible.

Unless of course the piano was fully rebuilt a few years back and is now being sold as a second hand rebuild.

The thing with rebuilds is you have to know what you're doing. I know many shops that sell rebuilt pianos and they are effectively tarted up piles of junk. A good way to tell is to start by having a conversation with the dealer about the instrument for sale. I know someone who was asked to leave a piano shop because he asked so many questions about the piano, the dealer became uncomfortable and put him out. Steinway and Bluthner in London are happy to let you look under the hood and inspect the piano through and through which is a good sign.

Top
#2307414 - 07/26/14 04:15 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
I'd sure hope they would after all, if your willing to give anybody that kinda money for something ,you should expect to be able to look at everything and nit-pick it the same as you would a car or a house.

I've asked James (nicely of course) if he'd be willing to lend or sell Jamie the Schimmel for the shop so that I could have the 2 alongside each other to compare more easily. I know that's kind of idealaistic in my favour but seeing as I'm looking at buying one or the other, Jamie wants a Schimmel anyway and everyone's a winner whichever way since James will make money selling it to Jamie, I'll get one of the pianos, and even if I buy the Weinbach, Jamie will have his Schimmel.

I'm still not sure which one to go for, I'm still tossing up the Schimmel (which by the way is the current model 189) aswell as both Weinbach's, the 170 and 192, even though the 170 caught my attention at first, and the 192 didn't impress us like I thought it would, I'm still gonna need to do one more comparison between all three before I make the final decision, the 170 looks promising, don't know if I'd be better with the 192 once it's serviced or voiced like the 170, but I need to try all 3 again to get a fairer comparison because I havn't played each enough to get a good enough feel for what I like, only the 170 impressed at the moment.

Top
#2307816 - 07/27/14 02:33 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
Personally, I'd rather steer well clear of a rebuild, for my money I'd rather have either A new piano or a good original condition second-hand one.

Don't get me wrong I'm well aware there can be nothing wrong with a rebuild, especially if it's done properly, but to me anyway, it's kinda just papering over the proper story, it's likely an old instrument that needed to be rebuilt, otherwise why'd it get rebuilt in the first place?

I'd rather buy a piano I know is in original condition, unless I really trusted the work that had been done to it, I'd rather feel good knowing that, ok even if it's abit abused, I can spend the money having it restored myself and that way, atleast you know where it's going, who's doing it and what's being done, call it paranoid, it's not I just prefer to see a piano it's honest new or used condition, if it's used, I'd rather see it's been used and what knick it's in, atleast then ye know and can see it for what it's really like and not just been as you say Joe, a tarted up piece a junk.

It's kinda like a car, a restoration can be brilliant or crap, but you feel much better if you buy a wreck and fix it yourself, than have a restored one without knowing much about it, or a restore that has stuff you'd rather not have.

Like I say don't get me wrong if the Bechstein turns out to be a real gem, then I might consider it, but I've never really liked Bechstein's tone. So, it's probably gonna be the Schimmel, or either of the 2 Weinbach's, don't know whether to go for the 170 or 192, I'd rather the bigger but it's tone didn't blow my socks off first time I played it, whether it'll sound nicer when it's serviced I dunno.

Top
#2307822 - 07/27/14 02:51 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1258
Loc: The Netherlands
Sam, with all due respect, what you just said with respect to rebuilds does not make any sense.
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

Top
#2307858 - 07/27/14 04:32 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: wimpiano]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
Sorry bud I might not have made much sense when I was on about wanting to do it myself fair enough. All I was saying was, I'd rather buy a new piano or a good original piano, a rebuild just doesn't seem the a good way to go to me. I know it can be a very good buy if it's a job well done, but as Joe says you have to know what your looking for, I'm not saying I wouldn't consider buying one if I got offered it, it's just that unless I knew what had been done and had trust in the folk that did it, I'd rather spend my dosh on a new piano or a piano that is used, but is playable, might need some work, but then you can get a good handle on what needs done from a technician and then have it done, knowing that there's unlikely gonna be anything dodgy going on as Joe pointed out with some shops, and if something wrong did happen, well that's the risk you take, atleast if it's in original knick you know when you buy it that it hasn't been fiddled with ,bit done here bit done there as Joe says that can happen.

I'm not saying I won't look at rebuilds, I'm just cautious of them if I'm spending that kinda money, I'd like something that was either new or if it were a rebuild, I'd be asking who owned it before, what needed done, why was it done them sorts a things. A rebuild can be better than the original instrument, but at the price I'm looking to spend, as you said yourself, it's unlikely to be a full resoration, but a part-restoration, I don't want something that's half finished, I want something that's fully fledged and can serve me for years, I'd rather not have to do stuff to it down the road, which if it's only a part-rebuild, you might have to, and anyway, I'm spending 12,000 or so I want a complete instrument, isn't that a good thing?


Edited by Sam4 (07/27/14 04:35 PM)

Top
#2308068 - 07/28/14 08:55 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
Sam - if I may say, your main problem is your lack of experience as both a pianist and as a piano buyer. You are coming from a terrible piano that is clapped out, to new grand pianos, rebuilt pianos and all these variations in between.

My thought is that you're going to end up on an expensive mistake, and if I were you I'd broaden my horizons, embrace all that I don't know about rebuilds, Chinese pianos, upright pianos, and equip yourself with as much information about all these things as possible. Don't just go to one shop, go and see others. Try Alan makin in Edinburgh, Peter Smith in Glasgow, go and see dome second hand pianos. When I bought the brodmann I spent about 18 months looking. When I upgraded to the Bluthner I spent about a year but I had more knowledge and was able to talk to some of the best technicians available.

I didn't talk much to other pianists except for those I knew to be experienced in the technical side of the piano. I can tell at first, second, third, tenth play if I like a piano, but I can't tell if the piano will be right in the long term.

By the way, rebuilding is not papering over cracks - it is rebuilding - with new parts, New soundboards, new tuning planks - the lot.

Perhaps some 'reconditioned' pianos are time bombs but that's a different thing

Top
#2308075 - 07/28/14 09:30 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1258
Loc: The Netherlands
Couldn't agree more. Even though I really LOVE the Schimmel K189 and would buy it when I had the space, money and permission wink from my wife without any hesitation, I doubt it is the piano for you. Same with the Weinbachs (those are really a step down from the Schimmel, do you realize that?).
It sounds like you haven't seen enough pianos to encounter THAT one piano. (Which is in most cases relatively easy to find). I would always prefer a good rebuild (which is verifiable) over a original condition, simply because it logically should have more life in it..
Beware though of Reconditioned or Refurbished or Refinished...
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

Top
#2308174 - 07/28/14 02:31 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
Originally Posted By: joe80
Sam - if I may say, your main problem is your lack of experience as both a pianist and as a piano buyer. You are coming from a terrible piano that is clapped out, to new grand pianos, rebuilt pianos and all these variations in between.

My thought is that you're going to end up on an expensive mistake, and if I were you I'd broaden my horizons, embrace all that I don't know about rebuilds, Chinese pianos, upright pianos, and equip yourself with as much information about all these things as possible. Don't just go to one shop, go and see others. Try Alan makin in Edinburgh, Peter Smith in Glasgow, go and see dome second hand pianos. When I bought the brodmann I spent about 18 months looking. When I upgraded to the Bluthner I spent about a year but I had more knowledge and was able to talk to some of the best technicians available.

I didn't talk much to other pianists except for those I knew to be experienced in the technical side of the piano. I can tell at first, second, third, tenth play if I like a piano, but I can't tell if the piano will be right in the long term.

By the way, rebuilding is not papering over cracks - it is rebuilding - with new parts, New soundboards, new tuning planks - the lot.

Perhaps some 'reconditioned' pianos are time bombs but that's a different thing
Hi Joe
I wouldn't say my littlePaul newman was totally "clapped out", abit older and maybe a little tired with some work needing to be done but Jamie looked at it and said it was in good knick, and it had been regularly serviced in it's previous home. It does still have quite a good bit of tone now it's settled in even though it most likely isn't what it used to be.

I also wouldn't say I lack skill as a pianist, I've been playing for nearly 20 years, what you call experience as a pianist and what I cal experience could be quite different, I don't play classical or maybe have the most subtle technique but who gives a toss? I play what I play and the most important thing is, I get a piano that sound and feels right for the stuff I do.

OK, i'm sure that's not what you were really getting at, I got abit apprehensive there as you do when somebody says you lack experience, you go who are they to say, but yes your right in that I do lack any know-how in buying a new or rebuilt piano. I will be trying more, but whatever the case, I'm going through Jamie because he's agreed to do me the kind of deal as well as giving me the money back for my baby grand, whether that's a good idea isn't up for discussion, my folks are helping me pay for this, and that's the way it's gonna be if I'm to get anything.

I have come from a background of older, perhaps clapped out by most folks standards pianos, although I can get along with pretty much any piano as long as it has atleast some tone in it, and I can get used to it and get a sound I like out of it, as you say Joe, I'll know when ther right one comes along, I have played pianos before which I knew I liked, heck funny story here, I nearly asked my university if I could have the Fazer upright, maybe not a very high quality piano, but I loved it's sound, so that's what was important.

You are right I'll have to get more clued-up on what goes into different pianos, but look, what's important really is, I try as many as I can, and when the right sounding one comes by, I'll get it, but Jamie has to be able to get it for me, that could be an issue, the Weinbach 170 as I said before caught me, as did the Schimmel, and I could over the years, get used to any flaws there are, as I also mentioned ,I 'll always moan about something with Any piano, and these 2 have most things right for me. Given I've come from the background I have with older, out of tune pianos, and still managed to get lessons, and teach myself and had fun playing on them, anything newer or rebuilt is likely gonna be better than what I have now, so I can't really make an expensive mistake can I? I'll buy the best one that I like the sound of that's available nearest to me, I've looked around enough and all this searching is startin to do ma box in, I now just want something I can play on to get rid of my Paul Newman, that might be a fool-hardy attitude you might say, but I reckon the right one won't be too far away.

Top
#2308416 - 07/29/14 08:59 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
Sam I stand by what I said - it wasn't meant to insult you in any way, but to help. If you have limitations in your technique it can be very difficult to understand, by playing, what makes a good piano.

At the end of the day, buy the piano you like best. I know some amateur pianists who are quite good and that have played for a long time who come and play my piano and think it is terrible because of the soft voicing. But it is actually their inability to produce a singing tone that is a problem, and once they get into the piano a bit they love it.

My view of what makes a good pianist is different from yours because I'm working at a high level all the time, dealing with miniscule touch variations and pedalling that depends on a millimeter to make a difference in the level of sustain I want. I want an action that allows me to play different notes in a chord at different volumes, or legato and staccato in the same hand, and do all sorts of trills, leaps, double octaves, thirds, sixths, etc and above all, produce a singing tone, and a fortissimo that is full but doesn't shatter glass. If a piano does all that, I don't really care if it lacks this or that, or even if it's brighter or mellower. I only care about the response of the instrument

Top
#2308535 - 07/29/14 02:27 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
That's alight Joe, I wasn't really offended, obviously you and me are different in what we want out of a piano, and as you need the responsiveness and careful control of the piano, that sorta thing would bother you, but to me with the sorta music I pplay, it doesn't, and I'm not looking to learn that kinda stuff for awhile yet, so as you rightly said, I have to find the piano that sounds beat for what I play just now, and if down the road I decide I need something more refined or control-able, then I'll upgrade or change as and when I have to.

I appreciate you don't want me making an expensive mistake, but like you say, you get a good feeling when the piano with the tone you love comes along, and it looks as if I'll just have to sit down with the Weinbach's and the Schimmel, and perhaps a few others, and get to know them better, and maybe ask Jamie and James for their advice aswell, I could also start alking with other technician't but really, it comes down to your own taste and preference doesn't it? Help from people in the know is always a good thing, but when all's over and done with, what's important is I (me) like the sound of it, it has to be able to handle rough loud playing when I do ragtime, but also soft enough to do ballad's and stuff, like you say, that could just be improving my style of playing, but I don't reckon I'm goin far wrong with the Weinbach here, that got me in most areas, well not far wrong for the 10,500 that Jamie wants for it, and even at that I could probably get him lower than that, paying it up with no deposit, a good return on my baby grand aswell, I mean he's not givin me a bad deal here Joe, yes the piano has to be mostly right for me, but as I said above, you get used to a piano's tone eventually, and as I'm basically well, hiring it so to speak, if I decide I don't like it, we can always try something else, I did say to him about the Schimmel, and he is tryin to get it so's I've got the 2 to compare alongside each other, but he is atleast trying his best to get me what I'm looking for, and I'm sure that soon enough, I'll find the right one. Given the experience I've had over the years with the piano's I've had, if I can get a decent tune out of them and be happy aswell, then I'm sure whatever I decide on will suffice perfectly well for me until I have the skill and desire to have something better.

However I'm glad your putting some sense my way and helping us abit here, by the way here's my latest fiasco, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdqS4Ytz7XM

Top
#2308637 - 07/29/14 05:30 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
Please excuse the French but ,Swine, this is more like what I'd want outa the Weinbach IF I went for it, one US store has a polished walnut one, can't seem to find anything like that here in Scotland except Edinburgh Piano Co's rosewood one which I didn't like so much.


The Shops in Boston though Lol! I may just for a laugh contact them and say I'm interested and see what they say, jings can you believe what that'd cost to ship over here, looks like I'm gonna need to keep looking for the finish I want, I don't care if it's not important, I'm paying for it, so I'll get the look I want. Here it is http://rogers-piano.com/pianos/weinbach/


Edited by Sam4 (07/29/14 05:30 PM)

Top
#2308708 - 07/29/14 08:00 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
aesop Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/05/14
Posts: 19
Hi Joe,

I can't agree any more with you. But...if you came up with two instruments, both of which reached your technic desire (e.g. a Schimmel Konzert and a Sauter), wouldn't the characteristics still be of little importance for your choice? laugh


Edited by aesop (07/29/14 11:51 PM)

Top
#2308807 - 07/30/14 03:15 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
Aesop - you're right, but probably less so. I mean, if I didn't like the sound I would probably think it was because it wad unresponsive - usually if a piano is too bright and therefore everything sounds quite monochromatic. I'd rather have too mellow because I know heat happens to pianos with age!

Other things would be is the sound full and rich, or is the sound clear cut and precise? Is it a balance of both? I want a piano that sounds as good for Brahms as it does Bach, one that allows me to play Debussy as well as Rachmaninoff. These finer details are sometimes more down to points of regulation and voicing than they are the actual piano - although if the instrument is sub standard to start with, it's going to be difficult to make it satisfactory.

A mediocre piano can be made good with regulation and voicing but it's never going to give you everything.

Personally, I'd go for a brand new tier one over anything - I prefer German pianos, that's personal though, although I love love love Fazioli - sono I pianoforti bellisimi! The CF Yamaha is good but not my favourite - although I appreciate it is of the highest quality

Second or equal first would be a rebuilt German piano - bechstein, Bluthner, grotrian, Steinway, or even ronisch, scheidmeyer, irmler or ibach. Or perhaps even hagspeil or ehrbar or rich. Lipp. There servant wonderful pianos coming out if Germany in the early 20 th c, that make excellent candidates for full rebuilds. Equally there was a lot of trash lol

Third I would pick Yamaha S and shigeru, fourth Yamaha C series and kawai rx.

I know schimmel is an excellent piano but the sound has never moved me.

Finally, for my purposes, having played many Brodmann, Wendl und Lung and Feurich - they're decent enough and functional but they just don't have what I need, and they don't actually feel solid enough even with feurichs developments with the reinforced keyboard. Just my two cents on what I'm looking for in a piano.

Top
#2308812 - 07/30/14 03:56 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1258
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Sam4
Given the experience I've had over the years with the piano's I've had, if I can get a decent tune out of them and be happy aswell, then I'm sure whatever I decide on will suffice perfectly well for me until I have the skill and desire to have something better.

I think when you buy an instrument such as the Schimmel you won't be looking for something better but you might look for something different.
In these categories it's more about taste then about quality.
For what it is worth, I don't think you are going to get a piano of equal quality for GBP 18000 anytime soon. (Unless you're buying a rebuild, the price on the Bechstein is incredible).
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

Top
#2308813 - 07/30/14 03:57 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1258
Loc: The Netherlands
Oh and by the way, when you are still going for a new Weinbach, why don't you just order one in the desired finish?
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

Top
#2308852 - 07/30/14 07:44 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
Wimpiano, I think it's because these pianos are old stock and therefore offered at a lower price than a similar New instrument.

I agree, it's probably quite difficult to get higher quality than schimmel - without going for a fazioli - but that one might want a different sounding piano. Schimmel use very high quality parts and Labour

Top
#2308870 - 07/30/14 09:12 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
aesop Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/05/14
Posts: 19
Joe,
Thx, you're very warm hearted~ ^_^ I learn a lot from your post. Actually, our tastes are quite alike, although I'm not professional and maybe cannot express what I feel enough clearly sometimes...and here's my story.

During my piano searching, it was easy at first to exclude other choices in my budget...until finally I came up with a Schimmel Konzert and a Sauter...similar price for them at dealers in my country. A time that I was really puzzled...I knowed the difference between them, but both were charming. When I tried one of them, I thought this was my piano. But when I played the other one to say a goodbye, there seemed to be greater persuasions to me: just take it! Hahaha...

So I went back home, for a long time didn't make my decision, and just put it aside. It was surprising that day by day, the sound of Sauter became closer to me, but the sound of Schimmel just stayed there.

Now I've got the Sauter. The sound of it is full, rich, and also clear. Sweet, but can be powerful as long as you need. It can speak in a very light way, or equally deep, depending on the touch. Perhaps there is something more than I can express with words...I think this piano is capable for all kinds of classical and modern pieces. Now what I have to do is just improving my technic, and understanding, to make my music ideal...Sauter is not only my piano, but also my partner, my friend. But I still consider Schimmel very lovely, and will always be very glad to play on them when there is a chance...like a date wink


Edited by aesop (07/30/14 10:12 PM)

Top
#2308875 - 07/30/14 09:26 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
The problem winpiano with that route is, it'd be way too expensive and out of my budget to buy a new one, when in many cases, the 2 weinbach's on offer here, whilst they are old stock and thus might need some attention, are basically new for like half the price.

OK you folk who are more clued can probably spot the difference between a brand new but I can't, and don't really care much. If I was gonna spend that sorta money, I'd be just aswell looking at the higher-quality Petrof or whatever else, in my affordable price range, and by the way I don't actually have that in notes, I'm paying this up through Jamie McLaren in his shop, the Weinbach's or the Schimmel look to be the best bet's in terms of tone, and reliability down the road, y'see you have to remember that I'm probably not gonna be changing this for quite awhile, I'll be paying it for quite abit, I'm never gonna have that sorta money anyway, and the deal me and Jamie have come to is I reckon quite an agreeable one.

Now as Joe mentioned, when you add that into the mix, things start to look very different in terms of what your options are, of all the pianos I've tried these 3 seem to be the nicest to me, yes I'll be trying out more, but the thing is, I HAVE to be able to pay it up, through Jamie thus he has to be able to get it, otherwise it's a no-go unless I want to save up for the next 20 odd years for a new one, which let me tell you is how many it would take me with my employment.

Ordering a new one might still be possible, but I would need to put a deposit down on it, and really, I don't see much point in that, given the one's he has in the shop seem to be just fine to me. Don't get me wrong if I try more pianos, Yamaha, the restored Bechstein I was talking about earlier, and maybe some others, and we find one I like, sure I'll go for it, or if indeed a new one is feasible, then I'd do that too if I could get the finish I wanted, but I doubt that'd be sensible given my financial situation and what my options are just now.

Top
#2309815 - 08/01/14 01:31 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
Well uys I went back round to Jamie's shop today to try out the Weinbach once again, and joe I'm glad you mentioned trying different pianos and playing each for abit, you do start to get a grip of things you do and don't like and you notice stuff that might bother you over the course of having it.

Take the Weinbach 170, having played it again, I now notice the touch is way too heavy and the treble dings like a bell, sounds as if there's somebody playin a triangle on top of ach note, and it rings too long for me, Jamie says he's still to voice it down and given it's brand new and hasn't been played really, it needs time to settle in, so I might still keep it on my list for now just in case I'm judging it unfairly, it's kind of a shame really because I'm still blown over by it's powerful deep bass, but that sound above middle c would really get on my box after awhile if it didn't settle down or we'll have to see once Jamie voices it for us.

I've asked him to keep an eye out for other Weinbach's, any Petrof's and any Schimmel's he may come across and et me know if he get's any in, I did play the Yamaha's, Bluthner's he had, they all had there ups and downs but long story short, none of them as you say got me completely.

I'm still asking James Cameron if he can lend Jamie the Schimmel Konzert, as that looks very promising, I may go over again to sample it and the bigger Weinbach, as I don't think the first time really gave me enough of a chance to really get to know the pianos, it never does. However I can now see what you sll mean by trying them out a fw times, only when you go back again do you start really looking at things properly, and look at what you'd be like with the instrument over the years. It's gonna be a real stretch to get at the Schimmel, but if I can settle a good deal with James, then I'll really consider it, Jamie offered the Weinbach 170 for 10,000, so I reckon the Schimmel could come down to about 16,000 or so, if it's used that could work if he's really wanting a sale.

So until I hear anything from the 2 fellas, I'm still on the lookout.

Top
#2309846 - 08/01/14 03:44 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3582
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Sam, I fear you are boxing yourself into a corner by sticking so firmly to one dealer. How do you actually know that you can't get a similar deal elsewhere? You've already got a taste for how difficult this decision can be. It's hard to find "the one" - so logic dictates that you have to cast a wide net to find that one. Your ideal piano might be just sitting in another store waiting for you to walk through the door - but you'll never know if you never consider other dealers. Give it some thought. I doubt you are getting an unrepeatable deal with your current dealer. You aren't married to your dealer - get out and see other people! wink

Top
#2309885 - 08/01/14 05:07 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 79
No I fully understand where your coming from Ando, I have actually visited other dealerships, and found some that I really like, to that I've asked them if they may lend the one I am considering, which is the Schimmel in the title of this post, to my dealer, they are in actual the same company, but the Edinburgh showroom and warehouse is much larger and has far more to look at and a much bigger range, then agin Jamie is always renewing his stock and his shop is comparitivly teensy by comparison, hence I am looking at other dealse, I appreciate that I could very well get a similar deal elsewhere, yes I'm not married to the dealer, but a lot of other dealers will want you to pass a credit check with something like this, mine does not and I have had a lot of work done from him, aswell as many favors before, I know that's not that important, but there's something to be said for trusting somebody.

I have told him the sorts of things I'm looking for, and he buys and looks out for those pianos all the time. So as I'm going round the dealers looking at other stuff, I still have Jamie on the hunt for the brand and models of piano's I have either heard or played at someone else's shop, bad scenario he could buy the piano off another dealer should that dealer not be willing to give me the sorta finance deal I need, nothing wrong with doing that, as I say I'm not boxing myself in, when as you say I find the one that's right, I'll know and can then decide what to do, but the Schimmel is the good contendr. I don't have the capability to go round every store in Britain, just the one's that are local to me, and that's what I'm doing, I'm sure something will come along, as I say Jamie is always getting new stuff, used Steinway's an all, so I'm confident the right one will turn up.

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp, Piano World, Rickster 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
My Initial Thoughts on Left/Right Hand Independence
by Visalia
09/19/14 01:23 PM
Questions regarding Schafer and Sons VS52
by Tankster911
09/19/14 12:42 PM
Transcribe tune
by pianomise
09/19/14 12:16 PM
Musescore playing my dp ?
by Pollux
09/19/14 10:58 AM
helpers wanted, interactive PC piano teaching game
by russellambrose
09/19/14 08:40 AM
Who's Online
143 registered (255, 36251, ajames, accordeur, albumblatter, 44 invisible), 1469 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76251 Members
42 Forums
157628 Topics
2315259 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission