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One already does!

We are all guilty!

We are all guilty!

In Linux we call them cron jobs!

I think that thread has finally ran its course.

Ouch, I just found this thread. I spend most of my time in the PC because I'm a serious, classical, advanced player. Sadly, most of what everyone has said is right on target. PC has always had its share of curmudgeons but most were quite knowledgeable and worth reading.

...Those of us at PC who try to be polite and productive find it distressing that others are intimidated and uncomfortable in PC. It's actually embarrassing to be lumped with a few bad apples. Those of us looking for interesting conversations find the rudeness and attacks very frustrating. I do hope things become better soon. The ambiance in PC is always in flux. Please use your ignore option and look for the best in us. Some of us are actually nice people...

I'm a bit divided on the current group-think on disliking who I think is being referenced.

There's two things going on, here...

1. It takes two or more to tango - people don't argue in a vacuum.

2. There is a rather traditional, dogmatic or deferential landscape with some subjects - which does deserve challenege, as does the status quo - that is all healthy. From perspective, there's nothing wrong with trying to inject a bit of objectivity, science or progressive thought - and just as often, it's an ideological clash, as much as anything else.

Yes, somebody constantly playing the polemic no doubt is tedious for some, but you don't have to engage him / her, nor read threads unless you want to - it's all choice.

In the example hinted at - I don't think they do themselves any favours - and I'd certainly buy that there looks to me, a fair degree of bluff and bluster in those, thar, sails - but all the same, I suspect even if he / she wasn't playing rather fast and loose in supporting - or perhaps understanding - their argument, and wasn't as, perhaps, abrasive - even if their argument was strong, valid, supported, and not expressed acidically, I suspect there's still plenty that still would not like the thrust of their perspective.

When I hear groups of people, condemning others, in another thread, I shake my head just as much at them, as what they complain at. I realise the context - but all the same, it's very insular, clique-ish, and really, a bit childish.

People chose to engage with them - it's all choice. Ignoring is just as easy. Arguing with them, to a certain degree, gives them more wings and influence, than simply them expressing a singular, perhaps unpopular, opinion.

If you don't like what this person says, simply ignore them. If the thread descends to a state you don't like, you don't have to read it. If you believe it should command the attention of a moderator, then report it.

It takes two or more to tango -- people don't argue in a vacuum

There is a rather traditional, dogmatic or deferential landscape with some subjects -- which does deserve challenge, as does the status quo -- that is all healthy. There's nothing wrong with trying to inject a bit of objectivity, science or progressive thought -- and just as often, it's an ideological clash, as much as anything else.

Don't worry; it is pretty easy to tell the good ones from the others!

Oh, I do agree! But that tends to leave a lot of threads looking like Swiss cheese because of this:

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There was a part of that thread that held a certain kind of appeal to me: the question of whether it is possible to define "objectively perfect technique" based on the way physics, anatomy and physiology affect piano playing -- and if so, what that perfect technique would look like. That, I think, could have been a worthy and interesting topic of conversation. Mind you, I don't feel that I myself am in a position to truly tackle that issue. But I can see how someone who has the relevant knowledge, both of piano performance and of the way it is influenced by physics/anatomy/physiology, might be able to determine "objective" deficiencies in someone's physical playing based on that.

Assuming this is indeed possible, though, doing it would require:

1) True, in-depth knowledge of the relationship between physical movement and pianistic skill.

2) A certain level of tolerance for the idea that pianists whose technique is "objectively sub-optimal" might have good reasons to play the way the do -- reasons that have nothing to do with perfect technique, and everything to do with personal comfort and -- the ultimate goal -- musicality (*).

It seems to me that the main players in the PC debate demonstrated neither of the above during the course of that debate. And yet, one of them repeatedly claimed that just about everything he said was "objectively true", without substantiating that claim in any meaningful way. He's also not shy about professing that those who can't see it his way are obviously stupid (or something to that effect), and that anything which does *not* meet his definition of objective truth is essentially worthless.

You're right, they don't. I've never hidden the fact that I like a good debate (or even a not-so-good one that has the potential to improve). I participated in the thread because, at least at first, I found it quite entertaining. I even said as much in my first post on *this* thread.



Agreed.

There was a part of that thread that held a certain kind of appeal to me: the question of whether it is possible to define "objectively perfect technique" based on the way physics, anatomy and physiology affect piano playing -- and if so, what that perfect technique would look like. That, I think, could have been a worthy and interesting topic of conversation. Mind you, I don't feel that I myself am in a position to truly tackle that issue. But I can see how someone who has the relevant knowledge, both of piano performance and of the way it is influenced by physics/anatomy/physiology, might be able to determine "objective" deficiencies in someone's physical playing based on that.

Assuming this is indeed possible, though, doing it would require:

1) True, in-depth knowledge of the relationship between physical movement and pianistic skill.

2) A certain level of tolerance for the idea that pianists whose technique is "objectively sub-optimal" might have good reasons to play the way the do -- reasons that have nothing to do with perfect technique, and everything to do with personal comfort and -- the ultimate goal -- musicality (*).

It seems to me that the main players in the PC debate demonstrated neither of the above during the course of that debate. And yet, one of them repeatedly claimed that just about everything he said was "objectively true", without substantiating that claim in any meaningful way. He's also not shy about professing that those who can't see it his way are obviously stupid (or something to that effect), and that anything which does *not* meet his definition of objective truth is essentially worthless.

In my opinion, it's impossible to have a fruitful, civilised discussion with anyone who thinks like that. And the fact that individuals with these or similar world views regularly frequent the Pianist's Corner, makes it a rather inhospitable place to those who go there looking for meaningful conversation.

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(*) Although it would be interesting to test this if we could, I do not currently believe that an automaton, built and programmed specifically to play the piano with "objectively perfect technique", could move its audience in the way that some truly skilled and musically gifted concert pianists can. Conversely, I do not think that "objectively perfect technique" is absolutely required for a meaningful, musical performance of the vast majority of music out there.

When I see the trolls posting I don't even want to get involved in the thread as one's voice risks becoming immersed in a sea of "sound and [of] fury, signifying nothing."

That is so unfortunate and is true of me also. Yesterday, I opened a thread that is generating some very thoughtful conversation and I'm learning a lot. Sadly, I can't help holding my breath waiting for someone with a bone to pick to hijack it. The very nature of a "monitored forum" is to keep the conversation civil. If my thread starts spiraling downward, I'm going to hit that "notify" button so fast, those trolls' heads will spin!