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#2305674 - Yesterday at 11:15 PM Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!!
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 814
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
This is my recommendation for bending the piano's plain wire in an effort to 1) minimise falseness/false-beats, 2) reduce the amount of string levelling necessary for high-level voicing and damper work, and 3) prevent an earlier onset of the dreaded "capo-buzz!!!"

This procedure involves three bends--in specific directions--that control the direction/path of the wire's natural curvature.

NOTE: there are no false-beat causing twists/turns in the entire length of the wire (i.e., the coil is purposefully wound on the side of the natural curvature of the wire--not with/under the natural curvature; this is more common/easier, but then introduces a twist when later installed onto the tuning pin).

Because the piano wires travel straighter, there is less need to level strings. This is a great benefit: bending/whacking anywhere in the speaking length of a string--especially at/around the termination points--will create falseness in tone. So, if you don't have to do it, don't! Manhandling piano wire may be a viable persuasion in the real world, but there is no place for that kind of brutality in high-end musical instruments indented for concerts.smokin
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#2305681 - Yesterday at 11:35 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1863
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
So you advocate placing the coil 90 degrees from the natural curve. Have I git that correct.

If you shape the capo bar to a definite V with a 0.5mm string contact point-no capo buzzes ever.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2305692 - Today at 12:41 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 814
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Bend #1: in the middle, around at the side (90 degrees) to the natural curvature of the wire.


NOT like this: the natural curvature of the wire! This is a much more common approach.

A bend with the natural direction of the wire would result in no twists on the right string, but string that wonders more in a R/L plane around the termination points; the 1/2 twist necessary to install the left wire onto the tuning pin would result in a slightly up/down and different R/L points of wondering at/around where the hammers/dampers contact the strings. This one, seemingly insignificant, bend of the wire introduces a tremendous amount of unnecessary and unwanted chaos into a systems with a direct affect on the ability to do high-level voicing (i.e., hammer-to-string fitting) and damper work.

Bends #2&3: the becket bends, around at the side (90 degrees) to the natural curvature of the wire. The end result should resemble a UU/CC, with both ends pointing straight up/down.

Now, that, is a happy piano wire, indeed! grin
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#2305698 - Today at 12:58 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 814
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
So you advocate placing the coil 90 degrees from the natural curve.
Yep.

Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
If you shape the capo bar to a definite V with a 0.5mm string contact point-no capo buzzes ever.
I haven't experienced enough of the 'ever' part for myself yet, but I do assume your statement to be true (i.e., based on my limited experiences with shaping polishing so far).

I don't know how much longer this approach might hold off a potential buzz, but it could/should help, at least a little--it will depend on the angles involved, the weight of the hammers, how much the piano is played, and how much string levelling occurs (i.e., pulling up to level strings, on a piano with a thick capo contact point, will make the problem worse; so, creating naturally more level/consistent strings in the (re)string process--by reducing the need to aggressively level the strings--should prolong the onset of an early capo buzz).

Of course, the real problem should be addressed at the capo at the next restringing.
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#2305740 - Today at 02:49 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7169
Loc: France
Thanks for the pics. The descriptions are clear.
Is not it reducing the amount of possible massaging up later?

Do you still massage with heat your strings ? (I find it again yesterday to thicken and clear the tone on some replaced strings on an old Boesenderfer.)
A hammer shank suffice.

I will test your process soon.
So bend with pliers for the one around pin?
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#2305781 - Today at 07:38 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2034
Loc: Maine
Hmmmmm. I use the "traditional" method and my wire seems to be very happy with no weeping or wailing that I can hear. There's a slight chance that I'm a bit insensitive. In the future I'll have to take a little more time to try to ascertain the happiness of my wire installations. If false beats are any indication, the stuff is pretty happy.
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#2305782 - Today at 07:40 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 118
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Thanks A443, I'm learning a lot!


HW

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#2305785 - Today at 07:48 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1618
Loc: Chicagoland
I must be missing something... I don't see how either method is different when it comes to adding any twist to the string, as long as you control the plane of the coil created during winding. I do see the wandering left/right issue, so will give this a try!

Thanks

Ron Koval
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my piano videos:
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#2305805 - Today at 08:52 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 593
Loc: shirley, MA
Is your statement in the "fascinating video" thread, that "unfortunataly, no string leveling" an exaggeration to make a point or a literal statement?

With bends that agree, do you do any massaging, gentle shaping of the catenary bend, minor leveling.

I must say, regarding leveling, that I have always taken the "Leveling" that high level techs claim as a requirement to be something whose attainment exceeds the physical limitations of steel wire. As in, aggressive corrective leveling probably lasts about as long as it takes for the check to clear. In addition to this, in my own rebuilding work, when string level needs serious correction, that correction without pushing the wire past its elastic limit, is often unattainable. I no longer beat up on out-of-level strings.

I also think that the requirements of leveling become more critical when hard heavy hammers are used on boards which are not very responsive, new or old. With my boards, which are quite responsive, have reasonable to low tension scales, cold pressed light hammers, minor leveling inconsistencies just are not the problem they are in systems that are pushed to the high performance limit. As in anything that is referred to high performance, high performance always means on the knife edge of dysfunction, hence the need for super anal, yet far from long term leveling.

Thoughts?

Jim Ialeggio
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www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
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#2305819 - Today at 09:18 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2034
Loc: Maine
Something that has some bearing here is that the OP has given no indication of any level of affiliation or level of experience with†the†piano service field, or the piano industry in general.
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Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2305841 - Today at 10:03 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: RonTuner]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 814
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
I must be missing something... I don't see how either method is different when it comes to adding any twist to the string, as long as you control the plane of the coil created during winding.
How are you making your coil?

Many people wind the wire around the tuning pin with their hands/fingers, and then whack that pin into the block, or transfer the coil to a pin already in the block. When using this method, the coil follows the path of least resistance and goes along the natural curvature of the wire. Using the 'traditional' first-bend orientation means the left coil will be on the wrong side and requires a 180 degree inversion.

If you have a jig that helps makes a neat coil, it is possible to use the 'traditional' first bend, as long as you make the coil on the left string going in the reverse direction (i.e., back against the natural direction of the wire). However, you'd still have the problems of wires taking different paths as they transverse different contact points.
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#2305857 - Today at 10:24 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1863
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I certainly hope this thread does not devolve into a comparison of professional "genitalia". I really do not give a dam about a long winded polemic regarding respective Curriculum Vitae.

Back to topic,
I do find that string leveling by working slight vertical bends in the wire is very stable over time once the string creep has settled down. As you get into the note 60's range and above-most of the phase fitting of unisons must be done at the strike surface of the hammer.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2305866 - Today at 10:44 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: David Jenson]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 814
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Hmmmmm. I use the "traditional" method and my wire seems to be very happy with no weeping or wailing that I can hear. There's a slight chance that I'm a bit insensitive. In the future I'll have to take a little more time to try to ascertain the happiness of my wire installations. If false beats are any indication, the stuff is pretty happy.
In the past, I have used the term 'false-beat' to describe any unwanted falseness in the tone of the piano wire--whether or not they actually create "beats." Some languages focus on "string falseness"--in contrast to actual false-beats--while others prefer to differentiate between falseness and false-beats in their terminology. The defining line between the two terms, like string falseness, is somewhat blurry.

Falseness includes issues where the pitch (i.e., the multiple frequencies of the different partials) does not remain predictably stable. When partials begin deviating abnormally from their expected behaviour, the level of falseness begins to subjectively increase. A good tone is one that remains stable: a tone that wavers back-and-forth (i.e., speeds up and slows down), or one that falls/raises as its decays is the main issue that I hear in string falseness. It doesn't have to be as bad as a "false-beats" to register aurally as "string falseness."
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#2305961 - Today at 01:21 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
gynnis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 66
Loc: Florida, Connecticut
I'm sure glad harpsichords don't have this problem since every string is terminated separately. Of course harpsichords break strings if you look at them funny.
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#2306034 - Today at 04:03 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: gynnis]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 507
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: gynnis
I'm sure glad harpsichords don't have this problem since every string is terminated separately. Of course harpsichords break strings if you look at them funny.


Quite true!!
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Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
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#2306036 - Today at 04:07 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 507
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: A443
...how much the piano is played, and how much string levelling occurs (i.e., pulling up to level strings, on a piano with a thick capo contact point, will make the problem worse...


Are you saying that you only pull up when doing string leveling?
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2306042 - Today at 04:19 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Olek]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 814
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: Olek
Is not it reducing the amount of possible massaging up later?
I believe this to be the case. When the capo is level, and the wire is installed properly, I find there there is no need for any levelling (i.e., the wires are close enough). If I really want it to be absolutely perfect, I will lightly massage upwards with something wooden...if I absolutely have to.

Originally Posted By: Olek
So bend with pliers for the one around pin?
I use two needle nose pliers to make the first bend--this keeps the wire curvatures in alignment. Then I make the becket bends, then insert into a coil maker/winder jig/tool.
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KlavierbaukŁnstler

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#2306043 - Today at 04:19 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7169
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Hmmmmm. I use the "traditional" method and my wire seems to be very happy with no weeping or wailing that I can hear. There's a slight chance that I'm a bit insensitive. In the future I'll have to take a little more time to try to ascertain the happiness of my wire installations. If false beats are any indication, the stuff is pretty happy.
In the past, I have used the term 'false-beat' to describe any unwanted falseness in the tone of the piano wire--whether or not they actually create "beats." Some languages focus on "string falseness"--in contrast to actual false-beats--while others prefer to differentiate between falseness and false-beats in their terminology. The defining line between the two terms, like string falseness, is somewhat blurry.

Falseness includes issues where the pitch (i.e., the multiple frequencies of the different partials) does not remain predictably stable. When partials begin deviating abnormally from their expected behaviour, the level of falseness begins to subjectively increase. A good tone is one that remains stable: a tone that wavers back-and-forth (i.e., speeds up and slows down), or one that falls/raises as its decays is the main issue that I hear in string falseness. It doesn't have to be as bad as a "false-beats" to register aurally as "string falseness."


the tone "purity" is something noticeable, that can be recorded and also graphed. So probably you will have more data to support your claim.

out of curiosity, is it something you noticed in a factory ?
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#2306046 - Today at 04:22 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7169
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: Olek
Is not it reducing the amount of possible massaging up later?
I believe this to be the case. When the capo is level, and the wire is installed properly, I find there there is no need for any levelling (i.e., the wires are close enough). If I really want it to be absolutely perfect, I will lightly massage upwards with something wooden...if I absolutely have to.

Originally Posted By: Olek
So bend with pliers for the one around pin?
I use two needle nose pliers to make the first bend--this keeps the wire curvatures in alignment. Then I make the becket bends, then insert into a coil maker/winder jig/tool.


Thanks, the missing part is that wire need to be massaged and heated, visibly. this is not only to stabilize by stretching, the tone color change for a hotter, more silky one.



Edited by Olek (Today at 04:23 PM)
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#2306064 - Today at 04:50 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: SMHaley]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 814
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
Originally Posted By: A443
...how much the piano is played, and how much string levelling occurs (i.e., pulling up to level strings, on a piano with a thick capo contact point, will make the problem worse...
Are you saying that you only pull up when doing string leveling?
No, that statement was referring to what increases the problem of capo buzzing/noise. Aggressively pulling up on the wire, because of the resultant decreased space between the string and the capo, worsens that problem.

I'm saying any deformation in the speaking length is not a good idea: it causes falseness in the string's tone.

If it is a new wire, installed in the way I outlined, pushing down doesn't do anything. If I am working with someone else's work, however, my procedure it to push down first (i.e., since it is common for technicians to yank upwards when levelling)--if pushing back down is not enough--only then do I pull up. But, again, any of these procedures is likely to cause a deterioration in the tone.

I don't have enough experience/data to say whether or not massaging the string with friction has a +/- effect on string falseness. However, if I had to, I rather do this than aggressive bends/impacts. But, I still maintain that it is best to leave the strings alone, and make small changes at the hammer/damper.
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#2306073 - Today at 05:09 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7169
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443


I'm saying any deformation in the speaking length is not a good idea: it causes falseness in the string's tone.

Yes certainly , and for massaging the wire must be tense and at pitch.

Honestly I was doing when mounting new strings but without making a relation with tone quality, less false beats, etc.

Just confirmed that lately on individual strings.

It is easy to test by yourself.

The tone do not loose partials as when tapping on bridges for instance.

The same with the pin's tapping, I like it. and it make tapping in front or on the bridge not very efficient in the long run.
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#2306098 - 16 minutes 0 seconds ago Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2034
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I certainly hope this thread does not devolve into a comparison of professional "genitalia". I really do not give a dam about a long winded polemic regarding respective Curriculum Vitae.

'Too late. I fear two participants are off dancing in the either of diminishing returns and ethereal minutiae.
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Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
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#2306100 - 10 minutes 29 seconds ago Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A443]
Chris Leslie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 552
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Thanks A443. I always wondered whether the orientation of the bend matters. I still do, but I least I know that others think about it.
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