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Siegmunds Love Song from The Walkyrie by Wagner has in the 2nd 3/4 time section a measure that looks like a 4/4 measure in both hands.

What could this 4/4 measure without any 4/4 time signature preceding it in a 3/4 time section mean?

The section I am talking about is the one with the 16th note sextuplets.

I'm looking right at it, and don't see any measure like that.

Can you be more specific on which measure you mean? (I see various measures with sextuplets, and some that I guess might sort of 'look like' they're 4/4 but aren't, if you look real closely at the note values and rests; anyway I'm not sure that any of those are what you mean.)

Mark....



Don't feed the troll.

It is measure 56.

In the left hand it has a sixteenth note sextuplet followed by a quarter followed by 3 sixteenths followed by an eight rest followed by 3 16ths.

In the right hand it has a dotted eight followed by 4 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice.

Both of these are the length of a 4/4 measure.

We must be counting the measures differently.

I'm counting m. 56 as the one before a switch to 9/8, and it doesn't match what you're saying. Are you sure it's 56?


Poly: Looks reasonable to me. As long as it's reasonable, it's reasonable.

About 500 pianos.

Mark...see my above comment.

OK -- you mean the whole thing is BS?

We'll see. If you're right, you were ahead of me.

This is similar to Chopin Op. 54, bar 75 where it changes to 12/16 time.

The book I am getting it from is Selected Piano Music which is no. 22 in Everybody's Favorite Series of music books and the 4/4 measure in 3/4 time is measure 56 in there.

That's not really a change.


Dunno what to tell you -- I'm not seeing anything like that.

I counted wrong it's actually 15/8 time. But then a couple measures later it goes to 66/1 time. How are you supposed play that at tempo? You would need a lot of pianos.

well I honestly counted how many quarters there is an equivalent of in that measure and the left hand had 4 quarters. It wasn't like a 4/4 3/4 polymeter or anything along those lines.

1st quarter, LH: sixteenth note sextuplet
1st quarter, RH: Dotted eighth followed by 2 32nds

2nd quarter, LH: quarter
2nd quarter, RH: 2 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths

3rd quarter, LH: 3 sixteenths followed by half of the eight rest
3rd quarter, RH: eighth rest followed by 2 sixteenths
4th quarter, LH: half of the eight rest followed by 3 sixteenths
almost a 4th quarter, RH: 1 sixteenth followed by eighth rest

caters isn't a troll. He just marches to the beat of his own drummer. (In a strangely notated time signature...)


-J

Well, remember that this is a transcription or an arrangement from what Wagner originally wrote for voice and orchestra. Unless we can see that exact transcription, there's no way we can adequately answer your question. It's even possible that the transcriber/arranger made a mistake, or that the editor made a printing error.

It's also possible, isn't it, that you have made a mistake?

Can you post an image of the page in question? If not, I don't think we can answer your question.

Regards,

I count 3 beats in this measure.

Right!

Break it down into thirty-second notes and you'll find you have a total of 24 thirty-second notes, the equivalent of three quarter notes.

beat 1 = dotted eighth plus the first two thirty-second notes = 8 thirty-second notes
beat 2 = two thirty-second notes plus three sixteenth-notes = 8 thirty-second notes
beat 3 = two eighth rests = 8 thirty-second notes

but it has an eighth rest followed by 3 sixteenths followed by another eight rest in the RH.

This is equivalent to these beats

Beat 1: dotted eighth followed by 2 32nds

Beat 2: 2 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths

Beat 3: eight rest followed by 2 sixteenths

almost a 4th beat: 1 sixteenth followed by an eighth rest

and by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice I don't mean the eighth rest alone twice. I mean that whole group of 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest is there twice.


So that measure is practically a 4/4 measure in both but is really a polymeter of 15/16 in the right hand and 4/4 in the left hand.