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#2306355 - 07/24/14 08:53 AM Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today
biasa199 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 78
I visited Yamaha's flagship store today (located in Ginza, Tokyo), and was fortunate enough to try their C1X that was on display. It was hands down the best grand I've played so far. It was very responsive (faster than all the Steinways I've played). It had a medium touch to it, and it sounded so perfect that I thought it was a digital piano. Yamaha did a wonderful job prepping it, and it was a joy to play. Unfortunately, I only got to play one song (all visitors were escorted out because somebody [important?] was sampling every single piano in the store). The price tag on the C1X was only $15,500, which is pretty darn cheap (they are sold for about $30,000 according to a couple of sites I've looked at). I was sad to hear that they only deliver/ship to Japan, so I guess delivery to the US is out of the question :P

I'll probably be returning there tomorrow. I hope to sample a few more instruments and ask a few questions. Their store is huge and includes not only pianos but violins, saxophones, trumpets, etc,. Any questions do you think I should ask?


Edited by biasa199 (07/24/14 08:55 AM)

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#2306360 - 07/24/14 09:00 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2554
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Too bad they didn't let you listen to the "important" visitor playing the pianos!
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A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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#2306362 - 07/24/14 09:04 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 672
Loc: Lewes DE
I have been there myself several times over the years, but not since my piano education adventures started almost a year ago.

I have a new C2X in my home and love it. Without getting into the whole "what I paid for my C2X" firestorm again, I can tell you that you are not going to find a C1X at a U.S. dealer for $16K or below.

The main issue is that virtually no dealer in the U.S. carries the C1X in stock. You will get a much better deal value-wise starting with a C2X. Most Yamaha dealers have at least one in stock, and most likely on the showroom floor.

P.S. For those in this forum: Even if you are not a Yamaha fan per se, if you ever find yourself in Tokyo a visit to Ginza (and this store) should be considered a "must" for music lovers. smile


_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"

2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Diabelli - Allegretto; Schein - Allemande


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#2306363 - 07/24/14 09:05 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
biasa199 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 78
Originally Posted By: malkin
Too bad they didn't let you listen to the "important" visitor playing the pianos!


Hehe. I actually came back a few minutes later just to listen to her play. It sounded like she was a jazz musician. It made me wonder why Yamaha has a soundproof room in the back titled "piano sampling room", and why they didn't use it. They instead decided that they were going to make all the other visitors (3 families I believe) go away.

Oh, also, they had a couple of Bosendorfers in their showroom, which I thought was pretty interesting. Anybody have an idea as to why they would do this?

--

Originally Posted By: BrianDX
I have been there myself several times over the years, but not since my piano education adventures started almost a year ago.

I have a new C2X in my home and love it. Without getting into the whole "what I paid for my C2X" firestorm again, I can tell you that you are not going to find a C1X at a U.S. dealer for $16K or below.

The main issue is that virtually no dealer in the U.S. carries the C1X in stock. You will get a much better deal value-wise starting with a C2X. Most Yamaha dealers have at least one in stock, and most likely on the showroom floor.

P.S. For those in this forum: Even if you are not a Yamaha fan per se, if you ever find yourself in Tokyo a visit to Ginza (and this store) should be considered a "must" for music lovers. smile


Haha. I'm not much of a Yamaha fan either, but I was pleasantly surprised at their store and how well the piano was prepped.


Edited by biasa199 (07/24/14 09:07 AM)

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#2306365 - 07/24/14 09:07 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 672
Loc: Lewes DE
They own Bosendorfer...
_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"

2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Diabelli - Allegretto; Schein - Allemande


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#2306368 - 07/24/14 09:08 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: BrianDX]
biasa199 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 78
Originally Posted By: BrianDX
They own Bosendorfer...


Oh wow. I didn't know that. I guess I learned something new today. Thanks Brian. smile

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#2306370 - 07/24/14 09:11 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 672
Loc: Lewes DE
NP. Just be be clear, they "own" Bosendorfer but don't "interfere" with their operations I believe...
_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"

2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Diabelli - Allegretto; Schein - Allemande


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#2306384 - 07/24/14 09:42 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: biasa199
... and it sounded so perfect that I thought it was a digital piano.

This statement makes me weep, and not with joy.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2306391 - 07/24/14 09:51 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 672
Loc: Lewes DE
I decided to let that one go.... shocked
_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"

2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Diabelli - Allegretto; Schein - Allemande


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#2306394 - 07/24/14 09:57 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Minnesota Marty]
biasa199 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 78
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: biasa199
... and it sounded so perfect that I thought it was a digital piano.

This statement makes me weep, and not with joy.


Sorry. I guess I worded it wrong? By perfect, I mean that it perfectly replicated the signature Yamaha tone that I came to love in their samples.

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#2306401 - 07/24/14 10:24 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Biasa,

There are many of us who cringe at the thought of a digital becoming the hallmark of what a piano should be. To us, the comparison is totally backwards.

Comparing 'the real thing' to 'sampled sounds' means that the standards have been lowered to accept imitation as the goal and norm.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2306406 - 07/24/14 10:38 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2089
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Biasa199,
Do you prefer the CX1, (C1X?), you played to any digital piano?
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2306433 - 07/24/14 11:38 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Joe Ravita Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Pittsburgh Pa
We stock the C1,2 3 and 7 silent in the CX series. The C1X has sold well beyond our projections and is second to C3X sales. I attribute this to this piano performing well beyond its size having some very good players with size issues in townhomes and condos. In the previous C series we generally sold C1 on special order only but noticed a significant difference in the CX version.
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#2306440 - 07/24/14 12:10 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1406
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: biasa199
I'll probably be returning there tomorrow. I hope to sample a few more instruments and ask a few questions. Their store is huge and includes not only pianos but violins, saxophones, trumpets, etc,. Any questions do you think I should ask?

Check out the music store, it is huge and has music that doesn't get published in the US. I got some fun duets while I was there.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2306441 - 07/24/14 12:18 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: BrianDX]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1317
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: BrianDX
NP. Just be be clear, they "own" Bosendorfer but don't "interfere" with their operations I believe...
Yamaha bought the Bösendorfer company a few years ago, and then moved everything/everyone out of the old factory in the city [where they had been for c.130 years]; they are now doing the entire production in a city about 30mins away from Vienna. Artists used to have a much stronger connection/influence on the piano production and routinely visited the factory--since it was right there where they were coming to perform; this doesn't happen as much anymore since the factory is so far away from the action.

This has, indeed, interfered with the culture and connection between artists and piano-builders/concert-technicians. cry cursing
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
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Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2306454 - 07/24/14 01:01 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
AmateurBob Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/11
Posts: 48
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: biasa199
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: biasa199
... and it sounded so perfect that I thought it was a digital piano.

This statement makes me weep, and not with joy.


Sorry. I guess I worded it wrong? By perfect, I mean that it perfectly replicated the signature Yamaha tone that I came to love in their samples.


Yes it made me weep too. I worry that pianos will be made "too" good and lose their soul, although several people have told me it won't happen.

The clarification made me weep too, if biasa199 is referring to digital samples. I hope acoustic pianos are not starting to be judged by how well they mimic the digital samples - samples that are made from an acoustic for the express purpose of mimicking the acoustic... makes my head spin.

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#2306458 - 07/24/14 01:05 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: BrianDX]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10481
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: BrianDX


The main issue is that virtually no dealer in the U.S. carries the C1X in stock.


What makes you say that?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2306479 - 07/24/14 01:59 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Minnesota Marty]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7193
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Biasa,

There are many of us who cringe at the thought of a digital becoming the hallmark of what a piano should be. To us, the comparison is totally backwards.

Comparing 'the real thing' to 'sampled sounds' means that the standards have been lowered to accept imitation as the goal and norm.


Yada, yada, yada

Why don't you can the "many of us" and simply speak for yourself. This forum isn't a majority rule political convention. It's a compilation of individual opinions. Should a member not make a comment because you claim that it brings you tears?

You are taking a short phrase from the periphery of a thread and steering the thread toward one of the most cliched hackneyed topics in the piano forum. It's been discussed many many times and there is no universal answer. It's a question of an individual's use of his instrument.

Comments like "many of us" are properly seen as inside politicking. It's like Washington Irving's description of the village idlers meeting under a tree in front of the village inn to pass the day discussing everything and resolving nothing.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#2306487 - 07/24/14 02:20 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: BrianDX]
88 Fingers Jeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 42
Loc: Peoria, IL
Originally Posted By: BrianDX
P.S. For those in this forum: Even if you are not a Yamaha fan per se, if you ever find yourself in Tokyo a visit to Ginza (and this store) should be considered a "must" for music lovers. smile


I agree completely. I was in Ginza with my wife about 10 years ago, and when she wanted to go to Burberry's, I decided to head off to Yamaha.

What a great store. It's the only time I can remember being happy when she spent a long time shopping for clothes. grin


Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: BrianDX
NP. Just be be clear, they "own" Bosendorfer but don't "interfere" with their operations I believe...
Yamaha bought the Bösendorfer company a few years ago, and then moved everything/everyone out of the old factory in the city [where they had been for c.130 years];


That's rather disappointing. Do they still have the showroom in the city? The one time I was in Vienna, while my travel companions were oohing and aahing in a chocolate shop, I took a walk over to Bösendorferstraße. Unfortunately, it being a Sunday, they were closed. I remember having my face pressed against the glass like a little kid.

Hmmm. I just noticed a common theme here. Whenever I'm traveling with someone who wants to do something that doesn't interest me, I go wandering off looking for pianos.

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#2306502 - 07/24/14 02:37 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: BrianDX]
michaelha Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 837
Originally Posted By: BrianDX

The main issue is that virtually no dealer in the U.S. carries the C1X in stock. You will get a much better deal value-wise starting with a C2X. Most Yamaha dealers have at least one in stock, and most likely on the showroom floor.


They're on the floor at Music Exchange in San Fran & San Jose. Played at least one, really nice. What Joe Rivita said about it being right behind the C3x in sales seems believable to me. Probably a good number of people with small homes but still want to get something high-quality.
_________________________
Casio CDP-100
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#2306515 - 07/24/14 02:56 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: A443]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 804
Originally Posted By: A443
Yamaha bought the Bösendorfer company a few years ago, and then moved everything/everyone out of the old factory in the city [where they had been for c.130 years]; they are now doing the entire production in a city about 30mins away from Vienna. Artists used to have a much stronger connection/influence on the piano production and routinely visited the factory--since it was right there where they were coming to perform; this doesn't happen as much anymore since the factory is so far away from the action.

This has, indeed, interfered with the culture and connection between artists and piano-builders/concert-technicians. cry cursing

Thanks for this information A443. As an admirer of Bösendorfer pianos I'm glad that production continues, and I do hope that Yamaha fully understands that they have to care for the unique tradition of this company.

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#2306539 - 07/24/14 03:30 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: A443]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10481
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: BrianDX
NP. Just be be clear, they "own" Bosendorfer but don't "interfere" with their operations I believe...
Yamaha bought the Bösendorfer company a few years ago, and then moved everything/everyone out of the old factory in the city [where they had been for c.130 years]; they are now doing the entire production in a city about 30mins away from Vienna. Artists used to have a much stronger connection/influence on the piano production and routinely visited the factory--since it was right there where they were coming to perform; this doesn't happen as much anymore since the factory is so far away from the action.


This is not at all my understanding, but I'm checking the facts and will post again when I have them.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2306562 - 07/24/14 03:54 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 672
Loc: Lewes DE
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: BrianDX


The main issue is that virtually no dealer in the U.S. carries the C1X in stock.


What makes you say that?

That was an exact quote from my dealer, as originally we went into the store hoping to buy a C1X.

Although it's annoying that either he was exaggerating (or worse) in the long run we are very happy with the C2X and would make the same choice again if we had to.
_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"

2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Diabelli - Allegretto; Schein - Allemande


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#2306564 - 07/24/14 03:58 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Joe Ravita]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 672
Loc: Lewes DE
Originally Posted By: Joe Ravita
We stock the C1,2 3 and 7 silent in the CX series. The C1X has sold well beyond our projections and is second to C3X sales. I attribute this to this piano performing well beyond its size having some very good players with size issues in townhomes and condos. In the previous C series we generally sold C1 on special order only but noticed a significant difference in the CX version.

Interesting, and not at all what I was told by my dealer.

I am glad to hear the entire CX series is selling well though. Curious as to how the C2X sells in relation to the other smaller sizes?
_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"

2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Diabelli - Allegretto; Schein - Allemande


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#2306570 - 07/24/14 04:08 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1317
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: BrianDX
This is not at all my understanding, but I'm checking the facts and will post again when I have them.
The factory is already gone; I watched it come down myself. The pianos are now 100% made in the suburb of Wiener Neustadt. With the train/bus connects, it would take visiting artists c.hour to get there from the city.
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#2306574 - 07/24/14 04:13 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
O Great Ice Princess - Hast thyne own piano risen to the heights of the sampled digital?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2306622 - 07/24/14 05:17 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Minnesota Marty]
88 Fingers Jeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 42
Loc: Peoria, IL
Reminds me of a line from the Honeymooners...

Ed Norton: "Boy, these flowers had me fooled. They're real! I mean it, they're almost as good as the artificial ones."

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#2306628 - 07/24/14 05:32 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 804
Bösendorfer's production now is in Wiener Neustadt (south of Vienna), a Bösendorfer piano salon remains in the Musikverein Building in central Vienna, see http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/company.html


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#2306641 - 07/24/14 06:06 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Personally, I have always felt a sense of loss since Steinway moved from 85 Varick Street to the entire block at Park and 53rd Street in Manhattan. Then, to add further insult to injury, there came that whole folly in Astoria, Queens.

Just like Steinway, Bösendorfer has no hope of survival in a new factory.
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2306643 - 07/24/14 06:09 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Minnesota Marty]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1406
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Personally, I have always felt a sense of loss since Steinway moved from 85 Varick Street to the entire block at Park and 53rd Street in Manhattan. Then, to add further insult to injury, there came that whole folly in Astoria, Queens.

In 1870?
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Poetry is rhythm.

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#2306650 - 07/24/14 06:19 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Indeed - Those changes "interfered with the culture and connection between artists and piano-builders/concert-technicians."

(My cheek is starting to ache from my firmly implanted tongue.)
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2306654 - 07/24/14 06:36 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Registered: 10/11/12
Posts: 548
Loc: Northern Virgina
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Indeed - Those changes "interfered with the culture and connection between artists and piano-builders/concert-technicians."

(My cheek is starting to ache from my firmly implanted tongue.)


hehehe
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#2306657 - 07/24/14 06:44 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1406
Loc: California
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2306668 - 07/24/14 07:06 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
biasa199 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 78
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Biasa199,
Do you prefer the CX1, (C1X?), you played to any digital piano?


Of course.

Yamaha had it listed as the C1X.
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/grandpianos/gp-cx/c1x/?mode=model

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#2306669 - 07/24/14 07:07 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: phantomFive]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10481
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2306762 - 07/24/14 11:44 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1406
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2306818 - 07/25/14 04:38 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 804
Well, Marty, it may be that you are not accustomed to urban life in a European city such as Vienna.
grin

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#2306847 - 07/25/14 08:18 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: maurus]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted By: maurus
Well, Marty, it may be that you are not accustomed to urban life in a European city such as Vienna.
grin

Well lets see. I would have a lovely lunch at Restaurant Anna Sacher with dessert, of course. Then I might amble over to the Bösendorfer Salon at the Wiener Musikverein to get my fingers limbered up and test the latest in the showroom. Next I would meet some friends from the Academy and have some coffee before we head to the Staatsoper for the event of the day. Ending the evening might necessitate a late supper at Fabios.

Gee, I just don't feel any need to travel to Wiener Neustadt for artistic camaraderie at the Bösendorfer Fabrik.

Yes I know, I'm missing the "culture and connection between artists and piano-builders/concert-technicians." I live a life of desolation and depravity.

Again, I weep.
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#2306863 - 07/25/14 09:00 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
A443 Offline
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We literally have thousands of professional pianists in the city of Vienna at any given time. Professional/performing pianists in the city would routinely visit the Graf Starhemberggasse factory to play on the concert fleet and meet/work with the piano-builder/concert technicians for their upcoming concerts/recordings. Every pianist had "their" concert technician that they trusted and ones they didn't like so much, and it was more of a working-friendship that often culminated in lunch and/or coffee. This happened, because there was a convenient and comfortable place for everyone to come together.

Minnesota Marty, you are being disrespectful/dismissive of a longstanding musical cultural tradition that you were never part of--you obviously don't care, but you are neither a professional pianist nor concert technician living/working in the city. <---to those people, it was a loss that was not insignificant.

The Bösendorfer Salon the Anna Sacher Restaurant, BTW, are for tourists, or perhaps: international, non-german speaking, students. Foreigners, the world over, are sadly: all alike. laugh
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#2306865 - 07/25/14 09:03 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: phantomFive]
Steve Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.


I disagree. there has been a significant number of improvements since the sale. Today's NY Steinway is a better piano that those made in the 60s-70s and 80s. For example:

Piano Buyer Review
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#2306866 - 07/25/14 09:05 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Actually A427, I'm being dismissive of you.
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#2306888 - 07/25/14 09:43 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
adamp88 Offline
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A427? Really?

What next? Are you going to challenge him to a fight on the playground after school?
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#2306895 - 07/25/14 09:57 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: adamp88]
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2601
Loc: Not in Texas
Originally Posted By: adamp88
A427? Really?

What next? Are you going to challenge him to a fight on the playground after school?


Not for the next thirty days.

There are several members who have been repeatedly warned about ruining practically every thread they participate in by engaging in unending tit-for-tat insults. Public warning that the tolerance level for this has gone way down. Persist at your own risk.
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#2306966 - 07/25/14 12:27 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: adamp88]
A443 Offline
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Originally Posted By: adamp88
A427? Really?

What next? Are you going to challenge him to a fight on the playground after school?
No, not at all. Those were my experiences and observations based on many years of living/working in that city. I'm not sure why my existence/experience always seem to come across as threatening--but it always seems to have been that way.

If I have personal experience that I think might add value to the discussion, I share; if I don't, I don't.
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#2306973 - 07/25/14 12:57 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
adamp88 Offline
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Hi A443, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Marty's comment to you. smile
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#2306992 - 07/25/14 01:45 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
phantomFive Offline
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Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.


I disagree. there has been a significant number of improvements since the sale. Today's NY Steinway is a better piano that those made in the 60s-70s and 80s. For example:

Piano Buyer Review

Well, having 'significant number of improvements' in no way is a contradiction or disagreement to what I said.


To help you understand what I meant, let's look at another tech company: Apple has made significant improvements to their products since Tim Cooke left, but they are still worse off for having lost Steve Jobs.
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#2307012 - 07/25/14 02:20 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: A443]
turandot Offline
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Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: A443
[quote=adamp88]A427? Really?
If I have personal experience that I think might add value to the discussion, I share; if I don't, I don't.


Sorry to see the thread not be about the C1 and C1X, but since it is what it is, I would like your take on the sale, particularly if you happened to be living in Vienna at the time.

From what I could glean from the business media in the US, Baway had no choice but to dispose of Bosendorfer, and probably should not have bid for it a decade before. Bawag was in trouble on its own and Bosendorfer had lost 2 million euros in one year. That's a startling number for a company with so few units produced. There were two bidders. Brodmann bid 11 milion euros and Yamaha 15. Yamaha guaranteed that production would stay in Austria. Brodmann didn't. Bawag chose Yamaha when Brodmann did not up its bid.

Now if any of that is incorrect, please correct me.

I have two questions for you. The first is your own opinion. Which available option do you think was the best course?

a) Bawag keeping the company

b) Bawag selling to Brodmann, a shell company for pianos made OEM in Xichang, China by Parsons Music

c) Bawag selling to Yamaha

d) something I didn't mention

The second question is about the general opinion in Austria of the two bids. Did the Austrians by and large favor Brodmann because of its claim to be a Austrian piano maker as opposed to the big Japanese coroporation?

Thanks

I'm not dismissing your coments about the cultural loss. I'd just to focus on the alternatives that were realistically available to Bawag at the time..

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#2307014 - 07/25/14 02:22 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: phantomFive]
Steve Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.


I disagree. there has been a significant number of improvements since the sale. Today's NY Steinway is a better piano that those made in the 60s-70s and 80s. For example:

Piano Buyer Review

Well, having 'significant number of improvements' in no way is a contradiction or disagreement to what I said.


To help you understand what I meant, let's look at another tech company: Apple has made significant improvements to their products since Tim Cooke left, but they are still worse off for having lost Steve Jobs.


What makes you think that Steinway's leadership is less motivated or cares less about their pianos?

I have interacted with their executives and find them both caring about Steinway's quality as well as being very motivated.... possibly more so than John and Henry were in the later years.
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#2307036 - 07/25/14 03:20 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
phantomFive Offline
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Registered: 01/11/14
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Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.


I disagree. there has been a significant number of improvements since the sale. Today's NY Steinway is a better piano that those made in the 60s-70s and 80s. For example:

Piano Buyer Review

Well, having 'significant number of improvements' in no way is a contradiction or disagreement to what I said.


To help you understand what I meant, let's look at another tech company: Apple has made significant improvements to their products since Tim Cooke left, but they are still worse off for having lost Steve Jobs.


What makes you think that Steinway's leadership is less motivated or cares less about their pianos?

I have interacted with their executives and find them both caring about Steinway's quality as well as being very motivated.... possibly more so than John and Henry were in the later years.


Well, for one thing, I don't think you'll disagree that Steinway was worse off during the CBS era

The Steinways were very aggressive improving their pianos, and marketing them.

Edit: Please don't interpret this to mean that Steinway is bad at marketing, or bad at improving their pianos; rather that before they were quite beyond anyone else in these areas


Edited by phantomFive (07/25/14 03:24 PM)
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#2307055 - 07/25/14 04:08 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: turandot]
michaelha Online   content
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Posts: 837
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: A443
[quote=adamp88]A427? Really?
If I have personal experience that I think might add value to the discussion, I share; if I don't, I don't.


Sorry to see the thread not be about the C1 and C1X, but since it is what it is, I would like your take on the sale, particularly if you happened to be living in Vienna at the time.

From what I could glean from the business media in the US, Baway had no choice but to dispose of Bosendorfer, and probably should not have bid for it a decade before. Bawag was in trouble on its own and Bosendorfer had lost 2 million euros in one year. That's a startling number for a company with so few units produced. There were two bidders. Brodmann bid 11 milion euros and Yamaha 15. Yamaha guaranteed that production would stay in Austria. Brodmann didn't. Bawag chose Yamaha when Brodmann did not up its bid.

Now if any of that is incorrect, please correct me.

I have two questions for you. The first is your own opinion. Which available option do you think was the best course?

a) Bawag keeping the company

b) Bawag selling to Brodmann, a shell company for pianos made OEM in Xichang, China by Parsons Music

c) Bawag selling to Yamaha

d) something I didn't mention

The second question is about the general opinion in Austria of the two bids. Did the Austrians by and large favor Brodmann because of its claim to be a Austrian piano maker as opposed to the big Japanese coroporation?

Thanks

I'm not dismissing your coments about the cultural loss. I'd just to focus on the alternatives that were realistically available to Bawag at the time..



Good info and puts things into perspective. A lot of times consumers only think from their point of view, and don't look at the economic impact to all parties concerned (e.g. the owners). Not sure what caused them to lose $2M that year, but apparently Yamaha thought moving the factory out of the high rent city would help. I like that option more than B.
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#2307084 - 07/25/14 05:11 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: turandot]
master88er Offline
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Registered: 04/15/07
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Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: A443
[quote=adamp88]A427? Really?
If I have personal experience that I think might add value to the discussion, I share; if I don't, I don't.


Sorry to see the thread not be about the C1 and C1X, but since it is what it is, I would like your take on the sale, particularly if you happened to be living in Vienna at the time.

From what I could glean from the business media in the US, Baway had no choice but to dispose of Bosendorfer, and probably should not have bid for it a decade before. Bawag was in trouble on its own and Bosendorfer had lost 2 million euros in one year. That's a startling number for a company with so few units produced. There were two bidders. Brodmann bid 11 milion euros and Yamaha 15. Yamaha guaranteed that production would stay in Austria. Brodmann didn't. Bawag chose Yamaha when Brodmann did not up its bid.

Now if any of that is incorrect, please correct me.

I have two questions for you. The first is your own opinion. Which available option do you think was the best course?

a) Bawag keeping the company

b) Bawag selling to Brodmann, a shell company for pianos made OEM in Xichang, China by Parsons Music

c) Bawag selling to Yamaha

d) something I didn't mention

The second question is about the general opinion in Austria of the two bids. Did the Austrians by and large favor Brodmann because of its claim to be a Austrian piano maker as opposed to the big Japanese coroporation?

Thanks

I'm not dismissing your coments about the cultural loss. I'd just to focus on the alternatives that were realistically available to Bawag at the time..



Actually William, you're nearly spot-on, but there was another bidder: Sauter.
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#2307096 - 07/25/14 05:41 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: master88er]
turandot Offline
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Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: master88er
there was another bidder: Sauter.


and......??????


Never caught a whiff of that. Please develop.
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#2307098 - 07/25/14 05:46 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: turandot]
A443 Offline
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Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1317
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: turandot
Sorry to see the thread not be about the C1 and C1X, but since it is what it is, I would like your take on the sale, particularly if you happened to be living in Vienna at the time.

From what I could glean from the business media in the US, Baway had no choice but to dispose of Bosendorfer, and probably should not have bid for it a decade before. Bawag was in trouble on its own and Bosendorfer had lost 2 million euros in one year. That's a startling number for a company with so few units produced. There were two bidders. Brodmann bid 11 milion euros and Yamaha 15. Yamaha guaranteed that production would stay in Austria. Brodmann didn't. Bawag chose Yamaha when Brodmann did not up its bid.

Now if any of that is incorrect, please correct me.

I have two questions for you. The first is your own opinion. Which available option do you think was the best course?

a) Bawag keeping the company

b) Bawag selling to Brodmann, a shell company for pianos made OEM in Xichang, China by Parsons Music

c) Bawag selling to Yamaha

d) something I didn't mention

The second question is about the general opinion in Austria of the two bids. Did the Austrians by and large favor Brodmann because of its claim to be a Austrian piano maker as opposed to the big Japanese coroporation?
In terms of what was in the media: non-disclouseur agreements prohibit all parties, including BAWAG, from disclosing any parts of the sales process. How any of that information was made public, or where the information came from, is a mystery. confused

It is public knowledge, however, that there was at least one other bidding group (i.e., not another piano manufacturer), backed by the support of the workers. That group was apparently not politically correct for BAWAG: it seems like the Bosendörfer sale may have gotten caught up in a red vs. black political back-and-forth; those were some scandalous times--that is what was in the news (i.e., not so much about Bosendörfer). Since BAWAG is a red party bank, and they were under attack by the black party (i.e., for embezzling and mismanagement of strike fund monies), BAWAG dealt with Bösendrofer in a way that was least harmful for them politically...as far as I can tell. sleep
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#2307168 - 07/25/14 09:04 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: A443]
turandot Offline
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Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: A443
it seems like the Bosendörfer sale may have gotten caught up in a red vs. black political back-and-forth; those were some scandalous times--that is what was in the news (i.e., not so much about Bosendörfer). Since BAWAG is a red party bank, and they were under attack by the black party (i.e., for embezzling and mismanagement of strike fund monies), BAWAG dealt with Bösendrofer in a way that was least harmful for them politically...as far as I can tell. sleep


Oy Vey! Red and Black. Black and Red. I was in the 19th for two years livings on Nusswaldgasses. I couldn't even understand my neighbors, much less the politics.

If a bank in the US is disposing of an asset and both the bank and the asset are in a distressed situation, it would be almost certain that the high bid would win the day as long as its debt level was not a concern and/or its credit shaky.

Are you suggesting that Bawag took less than it could have gotten from a group supported by Bosie workers because Yamaha was the politically expedient choice?
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#2307287 - 07/26/14 09:04 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Steve Cohen Offline
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A mitigating factor:

I was told that Bosendorfer had been declared a "national treasure" and that any buyer was legally bound to keep Bosey in Austria.

If true, that might have affected bidders.
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#2307290 - 07/26/14 09:15 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
maurus Offline
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As far as I can tell this is an unfounded rumor. In fact there was a formal statement in parliament of an Austrian minister saying that - while it was to be desired that production stays in Austria - the government would not interfere with a private sale. This official statement can be found here:
http://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/XXIII/AB/AB_01724/

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#2307300 - 07/26/14 09:32 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
A443 Offline
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Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
A mitigating factor:

I was told that Bosendorfer had been declared a "national treasure" and that any buyer was legally bound to keep Bosey in Austria.

If true, that might have affected bidders.
No, that is not true.

There was some movement to set the Graf Starhemberggasse factory/building under "Denkmalschutz" protection, but that was not welcomed by the Hutterstrasser family: doing so would have significantly devalued the land, the building could then not be altered for other uses (i.e., this was a serious concern, as the building was constructed of a series of add-ons over a c.300 year period), and would have completely prevented the current high-rise project that is going in there now.
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#2307309 - 07/26/14 09:55 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: turandot]
A443 Offline
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Originally Posted By: turandot
If a bank in the US is disposing of an asset and both the bank and the asset are in a distressed situation, it would be almost certain that the high bid would win the day as long as its debt level was not a concern and/or its credit shaky.
The sale of Bösendorfer, and the other twenty-some politically motivated purchases by BAWAG, had little/nothing to do with a financial distress situation.

The BAWAG board received a far more favourable offer to purchase the company, with the support of the workers, c.3 months before politics forced their hand to start unloading the companies--the offer to purchase the company came after the Bösendorfer red-party-management refused to negotiate large on-going orders of pianos that would have ensured profitability (i.e., it was reported that Bösendorfer was haemorrhaging many millions of euros/year). The response from BAWAG essentially was: the company is not for sale, everything is fine, we are not going to change directions.
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#2307320 - 07/26/14 10:41 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
turandot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen


I was told that Bosendorfer had been declared a "national treasure"


Hey, that's the same as your designation in the US, no? grin

The way it was reported in the US business press was that Yamaha on its own had agreed to keep piano prodcction in Austria.

Designating an enterprise that is leaking two million euros in one year a national treasure seems a little strange, and that 2m figure reported in the business press came from correspondents in Europe. It was also widely reported in the European press before the sale was consummated.

Originally Posted By: A443
The sale of Bösendorfer, and the other twenty-some politically motivated purchases by BAWAG, had little/nothing to do with a financial distress situation


This is hard for me to understand, especially since Bawag's own financial mess was bad enough that it wound up being controlled by a hedge fund that dealt in distressed assets. But.... the reason I asked you to post your impressions of the sale was to try to understand things from an Austrian perspective. So, while the political aspect you're reporting is confusing (at least to me), it's also fascinating and I appreciate you taking the time to develop it here.
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#2307361 - 07/26/14 12:43 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
A443 Offline
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OK, this might get too complicated/uninteresting, but I’ll give it a shot anyway.

BAWAG was Austria’s forth largest bank, which was 100% owned by the unions (ÖGB). The ÖGB is a VERY powerful group in Austria that, essentially, IS the Red party [SPÖ--Social Democratic Party of Austria; FYI, the previous name of this party was "Social Democratic Workers' Party of Austria”]. The connect is no secret, everyone in Austria knows this.

The BAWAG board consisted of ÖGB and SPÖ leaders. Even though BAWAG was a company, with fiduciary responsibilities to its shareholders, the board and CEOs, nevertheless, took many actions that were purely politically in nature; there were twenty-some companies that were purchased by BAWAG over the years for reasons other than business investments. However, none of those business were really “the problem” in terms of the bank’s own self-created financial distress--all of these companies's losses were manageable, including Bösendorfer's.

The Black party (ÖVP) intervened when it learned that the BAWAG leadership was convering-up €1,000,000,000 in losses by using the ÖGB strike-fund monies as a guarantee (i.e., to hide the fact that highly speculative offshore transactions in the Caribbean/Lichtenstein went bad, as did a c.€400,000,000 loan to Refco--all in the same year). Naturally, the investigations found that were many other "financial issues” going back much further to other CEOs.

Just to be clear: strike-fund monies may not be used for speculative investment purposes, nor can they be used to guarantee loans. This is why it was a red vs. black political issue. What they were doing was illegal. Because of the BAWAG scandals, and the massive amounts of negative media, the ÖGB and SPÖ had no choice but to quickly sell off BAWAG to manage the negative image for the upcoming 2006 elections.

Bösendorfer was, essentially, a non-issue in the political turmoil that was transpiring. There were so many more important issues that people were dealing with at the time. The finical stability of YAMAHA represented a situation that seemed to have had less potential for something to go wrong and produce even more political ammunition in the upcoming elections of 2006.

Bösendorfer had other options in terms of new ownership that were supported by the unions at the company level (i.e, the workers), but not necessarily at the ÖGB/SPÖ/political level.
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#2307377 - 07/26/14 01:39 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: A443]
Almaviva Offline
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Posts: 598
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
For what it's worth, Bosendorfer is not the only premium piano maker to recently relocate its manufacturing far away from its historical roots. Bechstein, for example, still has its headquarters and showroom in Berlin, but C. Bechstein and Bechstein pianos are now made in the town of Seifhennersdorf - still in Germany, but right on the Czech border!

Has this relocation adversely affected Bechstein by "interfering with the culture and connection between artists and piano-builders/concert-technicians"? I'm not a professional pianist, I'm not affiliated with the piano industry, and I don't live in a major musical center like Vienna or Berlin, so I can't tell from first-hand experience whether A443 has a good point.


Edited by Almaviva (07/26/14 02:14 PM)

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#2307384 - 07/26/14 02:14 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: A443]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7193
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: A443
OK, this might get too complicated/uninteresting, but I’ll give it a shot anyway.

BAWAG was Austria’s forth largest bank, which was 100% owned by the unions (ÖGB). The ÖGB is a VERY powerful group in Austria that, essentially, IS the Red party [SPÖ--Social Democratic Party of Austria; FYI, the previous name of this party was "Social Democratic Workers' Party of Austria”]. The connect is no secret, everyone in Austria knows this.

The BAWAG board consisted of ÖGB and SPÖ leaders. Even though BAWAG was a company, with fiduciary responsibilities to its shareholders, the board and CEOs, nevertheless, took many actions that were purely politically in nature; there were twenty-some companies that were purchased by BAWAG over the years for reasons other than business investments. However, none of those business were really “the problem” in terms of the bank’s own self-created financial distress--all of these companies's losses were manageable, including Bösendorfer's.

The Black party (ÖVP) intervened when it learned that the BAWAG leadership was convering-up €1,000,000,000 in losses by using the ÖGB strike-fund monies as a guarantee (i.e., to hide the fact that highly speculative offshore transactions in the Caribbean/Lichtenstein went bad, as did a c.€400,000,000 loan to Refco--all in the same year). Naturally, the investigations found that were many other "financial issues” going back much further to other CEOs.

Just to be clear: strike-fund monies may not be used for speculative investment purposes, nor can they be used to guarantee loans. This is why it was a red vs. black political issue. What they were doing was illegal. Because of the BAWAG scandals, and the massive amounts of negative media, the ÖGB and SPÖ had no choice but to quickly sell off BAWAG to manage the negative image for the upcoming 2006 elections.

Bösendorfer was, essentially, a non-issue in the political turmoil that was transpiring. There were so many more important issues that people were dealing with at the time. The finical stability of YAMAHA represented a situation that seemed to have had less potential for something to go wrong and produce even more political ammunition in the upcoming elections of 2006.

Bösendorfer had other options in terms of new ownership that were supported by the unions at the company level (i.e, the workers), but not necessarily at the ÖGB/SPÖ/political level.


Amazingly enough, I could understand it and I thank you for it. The point that made it cohesive for me was the misappropriation of union strike funds. With that at the center, everything else made sense amd I could understand how the isolated issue of Bosie was not a big consideration.

I was a member here at the time, and I can recall a couple of industry people writing that the sale to Brodmann was a done deal. They were both retailing Brodmann's Chinese pianos and had a rooting interest in how the decision would go. One in particular was openly salivating on this forum about the validation it would bring to Brodmann and Christian Hoferl.. When Yamaha unexpectedly won out, there was some egg on some faces. Yamaha is hardly a favorite in this forum. However, industry people in this forum are very good at wiping the egg off quickly and marching on.

I'll put the link, but it may have no value beyond amusement.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/184414/1.html

Russell Kassmann has suggested in this thread that Saulter was also a bidder. Certainly there was nothing in the open about that at the time, and Sauter doesn't fit the profile of a worker-favored bidder that you mentioned since it is a piano maker.

When Yamaha closed the deal, it was widely suggested that it just wanted a trophy brand to up its plebeian image. I doubt there's any truth to that because it is a public company with its own fiduciary responsibilities which include making money for shareholders. The streamlining of operations and removal from Vienna would certainly fit that particular responsibility.

It's too bad for Bosie that it was powerless about its own fate. The company seems to have had a lot of hard luck with its owners historically.

Thanks again
_________________________
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#2307387 - 07/26/14 02:23 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: A443]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1406
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: A443
Bösendorfer had other options in terms of new ownership that were supported by the unions at the company level (i.e, the workers), but not necessarily at the ÖGB/SPÖ/political level.

What option was supported by the workers?
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2311080 - 08/04/14 05:19 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: BB Player]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 672
Loc: Lewes DE
Originally Posted By: BB Player
Originally Posted By: adamp88
A427? Really?

What next? Are you going to challenge him to a fight on the playground after school?


Not for the next thirty days.

There are several members who have been repeatedly warned about ruining practically every thread they participate in by engaging in unending tit-for-tat insults. Public warning that the tolerance level for this has gone way down. Persist at your own risk.

Hmmmm. Based on a couple of thread posts after this one, obviously one of the members that has partcipated in these insults seem to have been given a pass.

Not cool...


Edited by BrianDX (08/04/14 05:20 PM)
_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"

2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Diabelli - Allegretto; Schein - Allemande


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#2311083 - 08/04/14 05:24 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: BrianDX]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 672
Loc: Lewes DE
Back to the CX discussion. I noticed over the weekend that according to their website Yamaha has Increased the prices of all of their acoustic pianos.

Interesting. ..
_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"

2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Diabelli - Allegretto; Schein - Allemande


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#2311107 - 08/04/14 05:59 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: BrianDX]
michaelha Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 837
Originally Posted By: BrianDX
Back to the CX discussion. I noticed over the weekend that according to their website Yamaha has Increased the prices of all of their acoustic pianos.

Interesting. ..


I remember when I was shopping for my piano and visiting a Yamaha dealer, it was shortly after the Japanese Prime Minister, Abe, devalued the yen (Abenomics) to try to help make Japanese imports more competitive (cheaper or more profitable). I asked him if that would mean Yamaha would lower it's prices. He belted out this big, fake, laugh, "hahaha Yamaha lower it's prices...Yamaha NEVER lowers it's prices." Well, I guess he was right.
_________________________
Casio CDP-100
2012 Kawai RX-5 BLAK

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#2311127 - 08/04/14 06:33 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
DancerJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/14
Posts: 38
Oh, my! This thread makes me wonder if I should just go ahead and buy B3.

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#2311132 - 08/04/14 06:48 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: DancerJ]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 672
Loc: Lewes DE
I remember in early May while shopping for our CX2 our dealer said that the best deals to be had were those pianos that were already in stock, as a price increase was coming soon. I thought that was a sales gimmick. Apparently not.
_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"

2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Diabelli - Allegretto; Schein - Allemande


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