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#2306438 - 07/24/14 12:02 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Olek]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Olek
When I think of "smiling unsion" I wonder iof it could not be advantageous to be attentive of the curvature by making the 2 outer strings going the same direction, and the center one the opposite.
I had briefly considered a similar concept. I thought: it could be advantageous if one could control a slightly sharpening tone in the decay. There are some psychoacoustical benefits to that kind of approach--especially if it were to go along with a specific style of unison tuning (e.g., ++0, +00, etc.). It might be possible to control this with specific curvature orientations.

I haven't travelled down that road of experimentation yet, because getting all the strings in the same plane--to eliminate the need for aggressive levelling--has become paramount in my consideration to eliminate falseness/false-beats in the tone (i.e., levelling can/will introduce falseness with the typical american approach to the madness mad).

However, with the individually tied-off single strings (e.g., many european pianos), a slightly different string orientation for the left string would be an approach that might be worthwhile to at least look into for more control over the tonal shape and projection.

Since my objectives have been to install straight wires on both sides, I haven't really yet observed how a 5 degree change in curvature orientation or a 5 degree coil orientation effects the tone (i.e., if I bent a wire inconsistently, I simply made another one). I've spent the entirety of my focus on choosing a straight orientation. In the beginning, it is not easy to read the wire to see exactly how and where to make the bends, but with enough practice, the skill can be mastered to produce consistent visual/tonal results. 3hearts
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
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Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2306456 - 07/24/14 01:03 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Wow that is a brainstorming session there.

Not only Americans can be somehow brutal on wire.

As I learned, for vertical pianos, you take an old transmission lever (behind the pedals) of an old vertical piano (wooden lever type)- you fix on its end a small bar to make a T shape.

Then you stand in front of the piano, push on the T with your stomach (and weight, the beer drinkers have some advantage on that part) , then massage up and down the wire unison by unison until the wire is heated enough (which is fast)

The wire is not supposed to be deformed here, or it will degrade, but in mediums the stress factor is very low usually so the stretch can be large.

bass strings are then mounted, if not all the lower tenor wires have to be massaged before mounting the basses (which I do generally).

It is too soon to ascertain the tonal change at that point, that is why that aspect escaped me . But if you have a few replaced strings on some pianos, the experience is easy to do, with a hammer shank for instance.

That "heat process "is officially a stabilization method.

Regards


BTW to do lightly or avoid with Paulello wire, anyway look at the stress factor level before going on..





Edited by Olek (07/24/14 02:22 PM)
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#2306478 - 07/24/14 01:58 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
I've been reading and following this thread, and I have given a little bit of thought to what I think is trying to be accomplished, which is to have a coil on the tuning pin in the pinblock in the piano, without any twist to the wire. So it got me thinking about stringing a bit. That is something I have done for the past forty years, the way most everybody does it, by hand using a tuning pin crank to make the coil and then driving the tuning pin into the pinblock through the plate.

I got thinking about alternative methods of stringing. Long story short, I looked up the Sciortino insta coiler, and watched a video on how it is used. Here's the thing: The tuning pins are all driven into the pinblock beforehand to a set height. The becket hole is straight out towards the bridge (or 90 degrees to the stretcher). Then the end of the wire is then fed through the becket, the tool is placed over the tuning pin, and then 2 1/2 coils are wound around the tuning pin while in place. Then the wire is fed around the hitch pin, back under the capo or agraffe, cut to length and then fed through the becket and turned as before.

It seems to me that, unless the stringer were applying some restraining force, any twist in the wire would be relieved before the wire goes into the becket. Further, I cannot think of any forces further applied in the remaining act of stringing that would introduce any twist in the wire (that would not be relieved)

I have never used the insta coiler, so I can't speak from the experience of usage. I would be interested in the comments of others.

Will Truitt
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2306504 - 07/24/14 02:39 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I am interested to hear what people have experienced with that tool.

I like the idea to have all the pins inserted and +- leveled, then I like to make tight coils from the start, with a T hammer or a crank (the T hammer is very convenient)

I could do the same with the usual sawed pin to make the coil outside the piano (installed with round nose pliers then)

I do not figure if it is faster with that method or no. Less tools handling is usually a good thing indeed.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2306538 - 07/24/14 03:30 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: jim ialeggio]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1238
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Ed Foote,
Have you installed wire twisted at Arledge's 45deg, which is what I see as the issue to be avoided? This is the twist that I find most likely to happen if a clear protocol is not established to avoid it.
Jim Ialeggio


Hi Jim,
Yes. I decided to destructively test some of my suspicions and theories on a piano that was coming down anyway. I talked to James about his and Jim Ellis's findings, and found that they were pretty well on the mark. I twisted a couple of single strings a full 360 degrees, and upon pulling back up to pitch, sounded just as fine. I put some in that were curved up and some down, some sideways, etc. I tried getting the curvature to mimic what they did with their string lathe, but I found it difficult to actually install the curvature at 45 degrees. The natural way to coil is with the curve, and then the pin is at 90 degrees. I had to intentionally begin the becket with the pin at what was, to me, an unnatural angle to the wire.

What I do to avoid this when stringing is to wind the coil so the curvature is dead on 90 degrees to the pin. Thus, when the pin is then put into the block, the curve of the wire is to the left,(bass, as this is for grands). This curve is then taken to the bridge pins and laid amongst them while maintaining the curve horizontally. This causes the approach to the hitch pin to have the curvature going away from the direction I want it to, i.e. clockwise around the pin. So, I use the distortion that is going to happen as the wire bends around the hitch pin to also allow me to twist the wire 180 degrees as I bend it "backwards" around the hitch. I pull firmly and as the wire is pulled through the bridge pins, they tend to anchor the orientation as I bring the curve backwards around the pin, the long end of the wire is rotated forward as the wire forms its bend. It seems that as the wire is bending 180 degrees, it's temporary plasticity allows an easy reversal of the curvature.
Done properly, I will see two curvatures nesting with one another before I cut the wire and feed it through the agraffe. Then, I make sure that the curvature is 90 degrees to the pin and wind it on. When that pin goes into the block, it will be holding the curvature horizontally, which is where i leave my strings when I install them.

I get a lot less false beating than new factory work...
Regards,

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#2306543 - 07/24/14 03:32 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Olek]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 853
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: gynnis
I'm sure glad harpsichords don't have this problem since every string is terminated separately. Of course harpsichords break strings if you look at them funny.


Is not it mostly if you lower their tension? (plus age, indeed).
Any idea on the stress on bronze and steel wire here?


Less about age and more about lower tension. I used to have a chart with stresses of the wire. Iron wire was also used in the treble of many harpsichords.
_________________________
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#2306596 - 07/24/14 04:36 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Ed,


Thanks for your description. Unless I'm understanding your description wrong, which of course is entirely possible ( pictures are really helpful in something this simple confused ), it sounds as if the end goal of what 443 and you are proposing achieves the same goal by different means. The goal being the natural curvature of the 2 sides of the wire nesting, ie curving in the same direction, and the coil sitting 90 deg to the natural curvature so the inserted pin is not inducing any extra twist.

Have I read your description correctly???

Jim I
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advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
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#2306606 - 07/24/14 04:52 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
My main objective--with the way that I install strings--is to achieve greater consistency in the string levelling, without having to touch/adjust anything in the speaking length of the string (i.e., because I know THAT process creates falseness/false-beats in the tone). I also happens to be the case, that zero twists in the system also eliminates much of the falseness.

Ed Foote, when you where testing the different twists/turns, did you observe the lack of a "false-beat" or did you observe with an ETD the change in tonal stability over time(i.e., speeding-up/slowing-down and drifting higher/lower throughout the sound envelope)? The later, is a matter of falseness, and is the attention to detail that I am actually talking about, monitoring with an ETD, and observing.

My methodology NEVER produces actual false-beats, as is heard from the NY factory. Why? It is because I am not levelling the strings (i.e., deforming them) and I never "seat" the string at the bridge. <----deformations are where most false-beats come from (i.e., it is NOT loose bridge pins; if it were, vice grips would temporarily eliminate/diagnose the problem). Wire twists, in my experience, is where falseness over time is created. There are other issues that can cause false-beats, but those problems need to be addressed where those problems lie.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2306615 - 07/24/14 05:00 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: jim ialeggio]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Thanks for your description. Unless I'm understanding your description wrong, which of course is entirely possible ( pictures are really helpful in something this simple confused ), it sounds as if the end goal of what 443 and you are proposing achieves the same goal by different means. The goal being the natural curvature of the 2 sides of the wire nesting, ie curving in the same direction, and the coil sitting 90 deg to the natural curvature so the inserted pin is not inducing any extra twist.

Have I read your description correctly???
I think it is somewhat similar in terms of twist, except the planes/paths that the wires travel in are different)

Ed, are your coils both done in the direction of the natural curvature, or is the second coil against the natural curvature (i.e., you start with the left string, coil with the curvature, backwards [against the natural curvature] around the hitch pin, and now the natural curvature for the right string is in the direction of a C [what do you do here: 1)follow the natural curvature with the coli and flip 180 degrees, or 2) make the coil against the natural curvature of the wire]?
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2306689 - 07/24/14 07:54 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1238
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Thanks for your description. Unless I'm understanding your description wrong, which of course is entirely possible ( pictures are really helpful in something this simple confused ), it sounds as if the end goal of what 443 and you are proposing achieves the same goal by different means. The goal being the natural curvature of the 2 sides of the wire nesting, ie curving in the same direction, and the coil sitting 90 deg to the natural curvature so the inserted pin is not inducing any extra twist.

Have I read your description correctly???
I think it is somewhat similar in terms of twist, except the planes/paths that the wires travel in are different)

Ed, are your coils both done in the direction of the natural curvature, or is the second coil against the natural curvature (i.e., you start with the left string, coil with the curvature, backwards [against the natural curvature] around the hitch pin, and now the natural curvature for the right string is in the direction of a C [what do you do here: 1)follow the natural curvature with the coli and flip 180 degrees, or 2) make the coil against the natural curvature of the wire]?


Yes, Jim, that is the procedure. It was taught by Bill Garlick and ( I think), Ernie Juhn in a class on restringing at North Bennett in 1975. The emphasis was on having our pianos look like the 60 year old Ivers and Pond when it was finally restrung. We had cut the wires on a big Ivers and Pond upright and all of them curved the same way. Just another layer of consistency.

Both coils have the curvature in the same direction. I bend the wire around the hitch while giving it slightly more than 1/2 twist. It comes out with the curvature laying in the same plane and direction as the first wire. I tried to intentionally make the two legs of the wire have opposite curvatures. It is difficult to have the wire stay in the same plane when being bent back against its natural curvature. Careless rounding of the hitch pin will leave that curvature in all sorts of orientations. Intentionally twisting it as it is bent can bring create consistent, properly oriented, curvatures.

Inre A443's criticism of bending wires at their terminations: after some years of treating recording and performance instruments with this, I have not found this to create falseness, at all. It is often the case that a slight, sideways push of the wire into the bridge pin can change things for the better. I live with my work at the school, and most of our concert instruments have less than vertical agraffe drilling. I have always used the strings' leveling before carving the hammers into an irregular mess, and have not found any of the downsides mentioned.

Agraffe buzzes will usually go away with a sharp strike, straight down into the topstring, directly behind the capo. I actually broke a string doing this, once, many years ago. This has little to do with bending wire in the speaking length. The small deviations of agraffe holes are more easily addressed with the slight lifting of wire than any other way, and I have yet to see the procedure do anything but improve the unison. It also address the problem of una cord requirements. If you have a low string in the middle of the tri-chord, what are you gonna do?
Regards,

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#2306766 - 07/24/14 11:57 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
I was originally taught to do everything in the way that Ed Foote describes. I did that approach for many years. In the end, I choose to deviate from that path for a number of very specific reasons (i.e., it didn't happen haphazardly).

Since I monitor and document the falseness of the strings over time [using the Verituner]--which helps me gauge when new plain wire would improve the sound--it naturally caught my attention when, after levelling/seating procedures occurred, the falseness of the wire worsened by noticeable and measurable amounts. Having kept detailed recorders in an institutional setting, like that, is what allowed me to notice the correlation between the brutal attacks on the strings and an overall degradation of tone quality (i.e., increased wavering in the pitch).

The combination of that knowledge, with the way I bend the wire and orientate the coils--to avoid any/all twists--is what allows me to create a very pure tone with bare minimal distortions/falseness and zero false-beats. If string falseness doesn't disappear with the wire installed using this methodology, I can fairly confidently sate: is not a wire problem, it is something else in the system!

I've been bending the wire like this for around the hitch-pin for about a decade now: shocked

The natural curvature of both wires running parallel makes installation much easier. thumb
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2306775 - 07/25/14 12:22 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21910
Loc: Oakland
I bend the same way using round-nosed pliers. It is easier to thread a replacement string under the capo and damper that way. A quick bend the opposite direction lets the wire hold to the hitch pin without a clamp, and directs it down toward the plate. Since strings usually break when I have only a short time until the house is open, doing it quickly is important. I orient it the same way even if it is a tied string.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2306784 - 07/25/14 01:26 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: BDB]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: BDB
It is easier to thread a replacement string under the capo and damper that way.
I think that was the original reason I switched to this kind of bend: it was faster and much easier to install. It it so happens, there are other benefits too! whome
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2306902 - 07/25/14 10:12 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2197
Loc: Maine
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Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
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#2306942 - 07/25/14 11:26 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: David Jenson]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Are you a piano industry professional?
Apparently?
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2306972 - 07/25/14 12:43 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
A443, thanks for the video. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words - in this case, it does not need to use any. Very clear what you are doing

Do you start your stringing by making your bend first as illustrated using a length of wire that is somewhat overlong, allowing your to cut each side exactly to length, and then coiling them? Or do you coil one side first and drive it into the pinblock, come out the proper distance, make bend as illustrated above, and them come around to the other side?

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2307110 - 07/25/14 06:25 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
When replacing a string, I make the first bend, install the wire, cut to length, make the coil, and transfer to the tuning pin.

When restringing, I usually make all the cuts, bends, and coils outside of the piano for optimal alignment and control (i.e., for the capo section). This allows me to accurately bend the wire/coil in an orientation that helps ensure the tone is as pure as possible. cool
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2307119 - 07/25/14 07:00 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
Thanks, A443, that's what I thought and it makes sense.

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2307140 - 07/25/14 07:42 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
I was originally taught to do everything in the way that Ed Foote describes. I did that approach for many years. In the end, I choose to deviate from that path for a number of very specific reasons (i.e., it didn't happen haphazardly).

Since I monitor and document the falseness of the strings over time [using the Verituner]--which helps me gauge when new plain wire would improve the sound--it naturally caught my attention when, after levelling/seating procedures occurred, the falseness of the wire worsened by noticeable and measurable amounts. Having kept detailed recorders in an institutional setting, like that, is what allowed me to notice the correlation between the brutal attacks on the strings and an overall degradation of tone quality (i.e., increased wavering in the pitch).

The combination of that knowledge, with the way I bend the wire and orientate the coils--to avoid any/all twists--is what allows me to create a very pure tone with bare minimal distortions/falseness and zero false-beats. If string falseness doesn't disappear with the wire installed using this methodology, I can fairly confidently sate: is not a wire problem, it is something else in the system!

I've been bending the wire like this for around the hitch-pin for about a decade now: shocked

The natural curvature of both wires running parallel makes installation much easier. thumb


Cool video, thanks,

A question : how long do you allow for the new strings to have a start of their "final tone" ?

I always have find the strings too "wild" until massaged.
SO I do not give them the time to settle in their natural position.

I will give a try and comparatives too, soon.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2307161 - 07/25/14 08:45 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Olek]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Olek
I always have find the strings too "wild" until massaged.
SO I do not give them the time to settle in their natural position.
My policy: "don't touch the strings!" Of course, in secret, I do what I have to do to make the adjustments that need to be made.

I think...maybe...the way Olek massages the string, possibly helps to even-out the small twist/rotation that occur as the strings pass around bearing points at the bridge.

What Olek might be experiencing could have more to do with the varying degrees of horizontal orientation as the wire goes around the bridge-pin (i.e., if the wire is not bending exactly with its natural curvature, there is a great risk to induce a temporary rotation when gong around a bearing point.

When the wires are installed with a downward curvature, the capo neatly shapes the wire into a smooth and nature looking S cure--which is not as disturbed by the R/L bridge bends, so there is most-likely less 'temporarily' rotation (i.e., it is at a 90 degrees plane= very stable).

I render my strings with agility. Because of that, any possible rotation, is probably already dealt with by the time I am done stabilise a new set of strings (i.e., by that time, my tone is already set, without any string massaging). I think Olek might find that there is less of a need to massage the strings with this other wire orientation. But, I don't know--he could be hearing something else entirely...
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2307325 - 07/26/14 11:01 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: jim ialeggio]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
I also think that the requirements of leveling become more critical when hard heavy hammers are used on boards which are not very responsive, new or old. With my boards, which are quite responsive, have reasonable to low tension scales, cold pressed light hammers, minor leveling inconsistencies just are not the problem they are in systems that are pushed to the high performance limit. As in anything that is referred to high performance, high performance always means on the knife edge of dysfunction, hence the need for super anal, yet far from long term leveling.

Thoughts?
Sorry, jim ialeggio, I didn't mean to ignore your question.

My experience agrees with what you wrote: the lighter the hammer, the less of an issue minor string levelling issues are--even in terms of concert work! It doesn't matter as much as it does with the modern overly-heavy hammers, so why risk the additional falseness of the tone with pulling/pushing on the string?!? If the agraffe or plate orientation is the problem, fix that, but leave the poor strings in peace.

And you are right, IMHO: sting levelling is not permanent, which means it needs to be done over-and-over-and-over again, further worsening the problem of falseness on concert instruments over time. <-----yet that, oddly enough, is what many manufactures recommend!

Piano owners: NEVER let a technician pound/tap on your piano strings--help stop the madness!
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2307329 - 07/26/14 11:13 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
If you shape your V-bar to a 0.5mm string contact point with the profile to a definite V shape and chamfer the string holes in the agraffe to a similar shape-string leveling by making slight vertical bends in the wire will not produce false beats. Plus you will never have string buzzes there either and the strings will last longer because you have perfected the pivot termination conditions.

I have a nearly forty year history of pianos with the string terminations configured this way.
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#2307331 - 07/26/14 11:20 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
443,

What is your actual stringing process? You said you like to cut, bend, coil on the bench or at least outside the piano. In order to cut, I have to have the wire bent at the hitch, and placed in the piano to measure where to cut. Which means the extra steps of placing the wire in the piano to measure and cut, removing coiling and returning the string to the piano.

How do you cut outside the piano....or rather how do you measure outside the piano...seems like a pain

Jim
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2307338 - 07/26/14 11:39 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
kennyz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 81
Loc: N.E Pennsylvania
Ed, what do you use to chamfer your agraffes, and do you do this by hand or on a drill press? A close up pic would be great!
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Once upon a tune...old world piano tuning and restoration
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#2307341 - 07/26/14 11:50 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21910
Loc: Oakland
When I string, I make the bend in the wire, hook it around the hitchpin, and cut the other end of the wire to length. Then I trim the first end. If there are agraffes, I cut both ends and trim them with the wire in place. I string from bass to treble, so if I make a mistake with the bend and there is not enough length, there is a chance I can use the string later.
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#2307353 - 07/26/14 12:11 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
If you shape your V-bar to a 0.5mm string contact point with the profile to a definite V shape and chamfer the string holes in the agraffe to a similar shape-string leveling by making slight vertical bends in the wire will not produce false beats. Plus you will never have string buzzes there either and the strings will last longer because you have perfected the pivot termination conditions.

I have a nearly forty year history of pianos with the string terminations configured this way.


your points are assessed and described by Fenner , also. (without going into iron resistance)
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#2307354 - 07/26/14 12:13 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
I also think that the requirements of leveling become more critical when hard heavy hammers are used on boards which are not very responsive, new or old. With my boards, which are quite responsive, have reasonable to low tension scales, cold pressed light hammers, minor leveling inconsistencies just are not the problem they are in systems that are pushed to the high performance limit. As in anything that is referred to high performance, high performance always means on the knife edge of dysfunction, hence the need for super anal, yet far from long term leveling.

Thoughts?
Sorry, jim ialeggio, I didn't mean to ignore your question.

My experience agrees with what you wrote: the lighter the hammer, the less of an issue minor string levelling issues are--even in terms of concert work! It doesn't matter as much as it does with the modern overly-heavy hammers, so why risk the additional falseness of the tone with pulling/pushing on the string?!? If the agraffe or plate orientation is the problem, fix that, but leave the poor strings in peace.

And you are right, IMHO: sting levelling is not permanent, which means it needs to be done over-and-over-and-over again, further worsening the problem of falseness on concert instruments over time. <-----yet that, oddly enough, is what many manufactures recommend!

Piano owners: NEVER let a technician pound/tap on your piano strings--help stop the madness!

After the 3 strings leveling passes done in Hamburg, the concert tech does not even carry a hook with him.

What do you call "long term ?" is 12 years enough ? That is +- what I am sure of.The coils are not the same, , not the small coils that many of us use, so the curve is larger.




Edited by Olek (07/26/14 12:15 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2307844 - 07/27/14 03:48 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: jim ialeggio]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
How do you cut outside the piano....or rather how do you measure outside the piano...seems like a pain.
Yes, in fact, many of the things that I do are a pain and typically exist outside the confines of an economic system (i.e., the time involved is often not worth it in terms of money to most). That is what happens with an academic background: the freedom to experiment without having to produce. shocked I'd rather find perfection first, understand the system, and then work backwards to find time savers. This has always been my general approach to piano technology.

For a simple replacement string: I make the hitch-pin bend in the wire, insert it under the capo, invert it, and place it on the hitch-pin and between the bridge pins. I have a c.70mm guide made out of a rubber mute--that works with the cutters and method that I use--to produce 3 full turns on the pin. I cut each length based on the location of the pin; I pull the string tight before I cut. I remove the string, make the becket bend on each string, make the coils, and then reinstall. I can do it in the piano too, but I have to be REALLY careful to get the coil at the correct orientation. Slight rotations and twists in the wire do matter in terms of the tone over time (i.e., the decay and sustain). I use that hand-held coiler, but I should make one sometime that is is half the size so that it can be done in the piano with greater easier.

For restring, I will already have made a guide with a string that is marked at the different contact locations. In this case, I use that string to indicate to me how long everything needs to be and where to make the cuts. This method produces really consistent results in terms of the visuals (i.e., where the strings go into the tuning pin in relationship to each other). Everything is done outside the piano this way; the prepared strings are simply installed.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2307913 - 07/27/14 07:49 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Ok, I see. I used to use the aluminum hand coiler, but as you say, it was a pain in the piano...too big. So I made one out of wooden dowel with a brass insert sleeve where the pin goes. The wooden dowel part is shorter than the commercial alum one so I can get as vertical as possible in the piano and close to the plate without mucking up the plate.

In the high treble, I just may try this outside the piano.

I'm curious what your guide string looks like...pic?

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2307935 - 07/27/14 09:14 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21910
Loc: Oakland
I use a hand coiler. I hold the tuning pin in my hand and turn it with a crank, and it makes a coil!
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