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#2306650 - 07/24/14 06:19 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Indeed - Those changes "interfered with the culture and connection between artists and piano-builders/concert-technicians."

(My cheek is starting to ache from my firmly implanted tongue.)
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2306654 - 07/24/14 06:36 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Registered: 10/11/12
Posts: 544
Loc: Northern Virgina
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Indeed - Those changes "interfered with the culture and connection between artists and piano-builders/concert-technicians."

(My cheek is starting to ache from my firmly implanted tongue.)


hehehe
_________________________
1950 Baldwin M

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#2306657 - 07/24/14 06:44 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1404
Loc: California
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2306668 - 07/24/14 07:06 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
biasa199 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 78
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Biasa199,
Do you prefer the CX1, (C1X?), you played to any digital piano?


Of course.

Yamaha had it listed as the C1X.
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/grandpianos/gp-cx/c1x/?mode=model

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#2306669 - 07/24/14 07:07 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: phantomFive]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10479
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2306762 - 07/24/14 11:44 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1404
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2306818 - 07/25/14 04:38 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 804
Well, Marty, it may be that you are not accustomed to urban life in a European city such as Vienna.
grin

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#2306847 - 07/25/14 08:18 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: maurus]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: maurus
Well, Marty, it may be that you are not accustomed to urban life in a European city such as Vienna.
grin

Well lets see. I would have a lovely lunch at Restaurant Anna Sacher with dessert, of course. Then I might amble over to the Bösendorfer Salon at the Wiener Musikverein to get my fingers limbered up and test the latest in the showroom. Next I would meet some friends from the Academy and have some coffee before we head to the Staatsoper for the event of the day. Ending the evening might necessitate a late supper at Fabios.

Gee, I just don't feel any need to travel to Wiener Neustadt for artistic camaraderie at the Bösendorfer Fabrik.

Yes I know, I'm missing the "culture and connection between artists and piano-builders/concert-technicians." I live a life of desolation and depravity.

Again, I weep.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2306863 - 07/25/14 09:00 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1314
Loc: Manywheres
We literally have thousands of professional pianists in the city of Vienna at any given time. Professional/performing pianists in the city would routinely visit the Graf Starhemberggasse factory to play on the concert fleet and meet/work with the piano-builder/concert technicians for their upcoming concerts/recordings. Every pianist had "their" concert technician that they trusted and ones they didn't like so much, and it was more of a working-friendship that often culminated in lunch and/or coffee. This happened, because there was a convenient and comfortable place for everyone to come together.

Minnesota Marty, you are being disrespectful/dismissive of a longstanding musical cultural tradition that you were never part of--you obviously don't care, but you are neither a professional pianist nor concert technician living/working in the city. <---to those people, it was a loss that was not insignificant.

The Bösendorfer Salon the Anna Sacher Restaurant, BTW, are for tourists, or perhaps: international, non-german speaking, students. Foreigners, the world over, are sadly: all alike. laugh
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#2306865 - 07/25/14 09:03 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: phantomFive]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10479
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.


I disagree. there has been a significant number of improvements since the sale. Today's NY Steinway is a better piano that those made in the 60s-70s and 80s. For example:

Piano Buyer Review
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2306866 - 07/25/14 09:05 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Actually A427, I'm being dismissive of you.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2306888 - 07/25/14 09:43 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
adamp88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Omaha, NE
A427? Really?

What next? Are you going to challenge him to a fight on the playground after school?
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Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Piano Technician
Associate Member, PTG

ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE

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#2306895 - 07/25/14 09:57 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: adamp88]
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2601
Loc: Not in Texas
Originally Posted By: adamp88
A427? Really?

What next? Are you going to challenge him to a fight on the playground after school?


Not for the next thirty days.

There are several members who have been repeatedly warned about ruining practically every thread they participate in by engaging in unending tit-for-tat insults. Public warning that the tolerance level for this has gone way down. Persist at your own risk.
_________________________
Greg

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#2306966 - 07/25/14 12:27 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: adamp88]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1314
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: adamp88
A427? Really?

What next? Are you going to challenge him to a fight on the playground after school?
No, not at all. Those were my experiences and observations based on many years of living/working in that city. I'm not sure why my existence/experience always seem to come across as threatening--but it always seems to have been that way.

If I have personal experience that I think might add value to the discussion, I share; if I don't, I don't.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2306973 - 07/25/14 12:57 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
adamp88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Omaha, NE
Hi A443, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Marty's comment to you. smile
_________________________
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Piano Technician
Associate Member, PTG

ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE

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#2306992 - 07/25/14 01:45 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1404
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.


I disagree. there has been a significant number of improvements since the sale. Today's NY Steinway is a better piano that those made in the 60s-70s and 80s. For example:

Piano Buyer Review

Well, having 'significant number of improvements' in no way is a contradiction or disagreement to what I said.


To help you understand what I meant, let's look at another tech company: Apple has made significant improvements to their products since Tim Cooke left, but they are still worse off for having lost Steve Jobs.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2307012 - 07/25/14 02:20 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: A443]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7192
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: A443
[quote=adamp88]A427? Really?
If I have personal experience that I think might add value to the discussion, I share; if I don't, I don't.


Sorry to see the thread not be about the C1 and C1X, but since it is what it is, I would like your take on the sale, particularly if you happened to be living in Vienna at the time.

From what I could glean from the business media in the US, Baway had no choice but to dispose of Bosendorfer, and probably should not have bid for it a decade before. Bawag was in trouble on its own and Bosendorfer had lost 2 million euros in one year. That's a startling number for a company with so few units produced. There were two bidders. Brodmann bid 11 milion euros and Yamaha 15. Yamaha guaranteed that production would stay in Austria. Brodmann didn't. Bawag chose Yamaha when Brodmann did not up its bid.

Now if any of that is incorrect, please correct me.

I have two questions for you. The first is your own opinion. Which available option do you think was the best course?

a) Bawag keeping the company

b) Bawag selling to Brodmann, a shell company for pianos made OEM in Xichang, China by Parsons Music

c) Bawag selling to Yamaha

d) something I didn't mention

The second question is about the general opinion in Austria of the two bids. Did the Austrians by and large favor Brodmann because of its claim to be a Austrian piano maker as opposed to the big Japanese coroporation?

Thanks

I'm not dismissing your coments about the cultural loss. I'd just to focus on the alternatives that were realistically available to Bawag at the time..

_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#2307014 - 07/25/14 02:22 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: phantomFive]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10479
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.


I disagree. there has been a significant number of improvements since the sale. Today's NY Steinway is a better piano that those made in the 60s-70s and 80s. For example:

Piano Buyer Review

Well, having 'significant number of improvements' in no way is a contradiction or disagreement to what I said.


To help you understand what I meant, let's look at another tech company: Apple has made significant improvements to their products since Tim Cooke left, but they are still worse off for having lost Steve Jobs.


What makes you think that Steinway's leadership is less motivated or cares less about their pianos?

I have interacted with their executives and find them both caring about Steinway's quality as well as being very motivated.... possibly more so than John and Henry were in the later years.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2307036 - 07/25/14 03:20 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1404
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I do feel that something was lost when the Steinway family gave up control of the company, though.


What was lost?


Motivated leadership that cares about pianos. Similar thing happened to IBM after Tom Watson Jr left.


I disagree. there has been a significant number of improvements since the sale. Today's NY Steinway is a better piano that those made in the 60s-70s and 80s. For example:

Piano Buyer Review

Well, having 'significant number of improvements' in no way is a contradiction or disagreement to what I said.


To help you understand what I meant, let's look at another tech company: Apple has made significant improvements to their products since Tim Cooke left, but they are still worse off for having lost Steve Jobs.


What makes you think that Steinway's leadership is less motivated or cares less about their pianos?

I have interacted with their executives and find them both caring about Steinway's quality as well as being very motivated.... possibly more so than John and Henry were in the later years.


Well, for one thing, I don't think you'll disagree that Steinway was worse off during the CBS era

The Steinways were very aggressive improving their pianos, and marketing them.

Edit: Please don't interpret this to mean that Steinway is bad at marketing, or bad at improving their pianos; rather that before they were quite beyond anyone else in these areas


Edited by phantomFive (07/25/14 03:24 PM)
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2307055 - 07/25/14 04:08 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: turandot]
michaelha Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: A443
[quote=adamp88]A427? Really?
If I have personal experience that I think might add value to the discussion, I share; if I don't, I don't.


Sorry to see the thread not be about the C1 and C1X, but since it is what it is, I would like your take on the sale, particularly if you happened to be living in Vienna at the time.

From what I could glean from the business media in the US, Baway had no choice but to dispose of Bosendorfer, and probably should not have bid for it a decade before. Bawag was in trouble on its own and Bosendorfer had lost 2 million euros in one year. That's a startling number for a company with so few units produced. There were two bidders. Brodmann bid 11 milion euros and Yamaha 15. Yamaha guaranteed that production would stay in Austria. Brodmann didn't. Bawag chose Yamaha when Brodmann did not up its bid.

Now if any of that is incorrect, please correct me.

I have two questions for you. The first is your own opinion. Which available option do you think was the best course?

a) Bawag keeping the company

b) Bawag selling to Brodmann, a shell company for pianos made OEM in Xichang, China by Parsons Music

c) Bawag selling to Yamaha

d) something I didn't mention

The second question is about the general opinion in Austria of the two bids. Did the Austrians by and large favor Brodmann because of its claim to be a Austrian piano maker as opposed to the big Japanese coroporation?

Thanks

I'm not dismissing your coments about the cultural loss. I'd just to focus on the alternatives that were realistically available to Bawag at the time..



Good info and puts things into perspective. A lot of times consumers only think from their point of view, and don't look at the economic impact to all parties concerned (e.g. the owners). Not sure what caused them to lose $2M that year, but apparently Yamaha thought moving the factory out of the high rent city would help. I like that option more than B.
_________________________
Casio CDP-100
2012 Kawai RX-5 BLAK

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#2307084 - 07/25/14 05:11 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: turandot]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 859
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: A443
[quote=adamp88]A427? Really?
If I have personal experience that I think might add value to the discussion, I share; if I don't, I don't.


Sorry to see the thread not be about the C1 and C1X, but since it is what it is, I would like your take on the sale, particularly if you happened to be living in Vienna at the time.

From what I could glean from the business media in the US, Baway had no choice but to dispose of Bosendorfer, and probably should not have bid for it a decade before. Bawag was in trouble on its own and Bosendorfer had lost 2 million euros in one year. That's a startling number for a company with so few units produced. There were two bidders. Brodmann bid 11 milion euros and Yamaha 15. Yamaha guaranteed that production would stay in Austria. Brodmann didn't. Bawag chose Yamaha when Brodmann did not up its bid.

Now if any of that is incorrect, please correct me.

I have two questions for you. The first is your own opinion. Which available option do you think was the best course?

a) Bawag keeping the company

b) Bawag selling to Brodmann, a shell company for pianos made OEM in Xichang, China by Parsons Music

c) Bawag selling to Yamaha

d) something I didn't mention

The second question is about the general opinion in Austria of the two bids. Did the Austrians by and large favor Brodmann because of its claim to be a Austrian piano maker as opposed to the big Japanese coroporation?

Thanks

I'm not dismissing your coments about the cultural loss. I'd just to focus on the alternatives that were realistically available to Bawag at the time..



Actually William, you're nearly spot-on, but there was another bidder: Sauter.
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Grotrian•Sauter•Estonia•Kayserburg•Baldwin•Brodmann•Ritmüller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#2307096 - 07/25/14 05:41 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: master88er]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7192
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: master88er
there was another bidder: Sauter.


and......??????


Never caught a whiff of that. Please develop.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#2307098 - 07/25/14 05:46 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: turandot]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1314
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: turandot
Sorry to see the thread not be about the C1 and C1X, but since it is what it is, I would like your take on the sale, particularly if you happened to be living in Vienna at the time.

From what I could glean from the business media in the US, Baway had no choice but to dispose of Bosendorfer, and probably should not have bid for it a decade before. Bawag was in trouble on its own and Bosendorfer had lost 2 million euros in one year. That's a startling number for a company with so few units produced. There were two bidders. Brodmann bid 11 milion euros and Yamaha 15. Yamaha guaranteed that production would stay in Austria. Brodmann didn't. Bawag chose Yamaha when Brodmann did not up its bid.

Now if any of that is incorrect, please correct me.

I have two questions for you. The first is your own opinion. Which available option do you think was the best course?

a) Bawag keeping the company

b) Bawag selling to Brodmann, a shell company for pianos made OEM in Xichang, China by Parsons Music

c) Bawag selling to Yamaha

d) something I didn't mention

The second question is about the general opinion in Austria of the two bids. Did the Austrians by and large favor Brodmann because of its claim to be a Austrian piano maker as opposed to the big Japanese coroporation?
In terms of what was in the media: non-disclouseur agreements prohibit all parties, including BAWAG, from disclosing any parts of the sales process. How any of that information was made public, or where the information came from, is a mystery. confused

It is public knowledge, however, that there was at least one other bidding group (i.e., not another piano manufacturer), backed by the support of the workers. That group was apparently not politically correct for BAWAG: it seems like the Bosendörfer sale may have gotten caught up in a red vs. black political back-and-forth; those were some scandalous times--that is what was in the news (i.e., not so much about Bosendörfer). Since BAWAG is a red party bank, and they were under attack by the black party (i.e., for embezzling and mismanagement of strike fund monies), BAWAG dealt with Bösendrofer in a way that was least harmful for them politically...as far as I can tell. sleep
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2307168 - 07/25/14 09:04 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: A443]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7192
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: A443
it seems like the Bosendörfer sale may have gotten caught up in a red vs. black political back-and-forth; those were some scandalous times--that is what was in the news (i.e., not so much about Bosendörfer). Since BAWAG is a red party bank, and they were under attack by the black party (i.e., for embezzling and mismanagement of strike fund monies), BAWAG dealt with Bösendrofer in a way that was least harmful for them politically...as far as I can tell. sleep


Oy Vey! Red and Black. Black and Red. I was in the 19th for two years livings on Nusswaldgasses. I couldn't even understand my neighbors, much less the politics.

If a bank in the US is disposing of an asset and both the bank and the asset are in a distressed situation, it would be almost certain that the high bid would win the day as long as its debt level was not a concern and/or its credit shaky.

Are you suggesting that Bawag took less than it could have gotten from a group supported by Bosie workers because Yamaha was the politically expedient choice?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#2307287 - 07/26/14 09:04 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10479
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
A mitigating factor:

I was told that Bosendorfer had been declared a "national treasure" and that any buyer was legally bound to keep Bosey in Austria.

If true, that might have affected bidders.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2307290 - 07/26/14 09:15 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 804
As far as I can tell this is an unfounded rumor. In fact there was a formal statement in parliament of an Austrian minister saying that - while it was to be desired that production stays in Austria - the government would not interfere with a private sale. This official statement can be found here:
http://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/XXIII/AB/AB_01724/

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#2307300 - 07/26/14 09:32 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1314
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
A mitigating factor:

I was told that Bosendorfer had been declared a "national treasure" and that any buyer was legally bound to keep Bosey in Austria.

If true, that might have affected bidders.
No, that is not true.

There was some movement to set the Graf Starhemberggasse factory/building under "Denkmalschutz" protection, but that was not welcomed by the Hutterstrasser family: doing so would have significantly devalued the land, the building could then not be altered for other uses (i.e., this was a serious concern, as the building was constructed of a series of add-ons over a c.300 year period), and would have completely prevented the current high-rise project that is going in there now.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2307309 - 07/26/14 09:55 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: turandot]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1314
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: turandot
If a bank in the US is disposing of an asset and both the bank and the asset are in a distressed situation, it would be almost certain that the high bid would win the day as long as its debt level was not a concern and/or its credit shaky.
The sale of Bösendorfer, and the other twenty-some politically motivated purchases by BAWAG, had little/nothing to do with a financial distress situation.

The BAWAG board received a far more favourable offer to purchase the company, with the support of the workers, c.3 months before politics forced their hand to start unloading the companies--the offer to purchase the company came after the Bösendorfer red-party-management refused to negotiate large on-going orders of pianos that would have ensured profitability (i.e., it was reported that Bösendorfer was haemorrhaging many millions of euros/year). The response from BAWAG essentially was: the company is not for sale, everything is fine, we are not going to change directions.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2307320 - 07/26/14 10:41 AM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: Steve Cohen]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7192
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen


I was told that Bosendorfer had been declared a "national treasure"


Hey, that's the same as your designation in the US, no? grin

The way it was reported in the US business press was that Yamaha on its own had agreed to keep piano prodcction in Austria.

Designating an enterprise that is leaking two million euros in one year a national treasure seems a little strange, and that 2m figure reported in the business press came from correspondents in Europe. It was also widely reported in the European press before the sale was consummated.

Originally Posted By: A443
The sale of Bösendorfer, and the other twenty-some politically motivated purchases by BAWAG, had little/nothing to do with a financial distress situation


This is hard for me to understand, especially since Bawag's own financial mess was bad enough that it wound up being controlled by a hedge fund that dealt in distressed assets. But.... the reason I asked you to post your impressions of the sale was to try to understand things from an Austrian perspective. So, while the political aspect you're reporting is confusing (at least to me), it's also fascinating and I appreciate you taking the time to develop it here.
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#2307361 - 07/26/14 12:43 PM Re: Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today [Re: biasa199]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1314
Loc: Manywheres
OK, this might get too complicated/uninteresting, but I’ll give it a shot anyway.

BAWAG was Austria’s forth largest bank, which was 100% owned by the unions (ÖGB). The ÖGB is a VERY powerful group in Austria that, essentially, IS the Red party [SPÖ--Social Democratic Party of Austria; FYI, the previous name of this party was "Social Democratic Workers' Party of Austria”]. The connect is no secret, everyone in Austria knows this.

The BAWAG board consisted of ÖGB and SPÖ leaders. Even though BAWAG was a company, with fiduciary responsibilities to its shareholders, the board and CEOs, nevertheless, took many actions that were purely politically in nature; there were twenty-some companies that were purchased by BAWAG over the years for reasons other than business investments. However, none of those business were really “the problem” in terms of the bank’s own self-created financial distress--all of these companies's losses were manageable, including Bösendorfer's.

The Black party (ÖVP) intervened when it learned that the BAWAG leadership was convering-up €1,000,000,000 in losses by using the ÖGB strike-fund monies as a guarantee (i.e., to hide the fact that highly speculative offshore transactions in the Caribbean/Lichtenstein went bad, as did a c.€400,000,000 loan to Refco--all in the same year). Naturally, the investigations found that were many other "financial issues” going back much further to other CEOs.

Just to be clear: strike-fund monies may not be used for speculative investment purposes, nor can they be used to guarantee loans. This is why it was a red vs. black political issue. What they were doing was illegal. Because of the BAWAG scandals, and the massive amounts of negative media, the ÖGB and SPÖ had no choice but to quickly sell off BAWAG to manage the negative image for the upcoming 2006 elections.

Bösendorfer was, essentially, a non-issue in the political turmoil that was transpiring. There were so many more important issues that people were dealing with at the time. The finical stability of YAMAHA represented a situation that seemed to have had less potential for something to go wrong and produce even more political ammunition in the upcoming elections of 2006.

Bösendorfer had other options in terms of new ownership that were supported by the unions at the company level (i.e, the workers), but not necessarily at the ÖGB/SPÖ/political level.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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