Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
153 registered (ajames, 36251, accordeur, Alegretto, 45 invisible), 1786 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#2305705 - 07/23/14 01:10 AM 4/4 measure in 3/4 time?
caters Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 199
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
Siegmunds Love Song from The Walkyrie by Wagner has in the 2nd 3/4 time section a measure that looks like a 4/4 measure in both hands.

What could this 4/4 measure without any 4/4 time signature preceding it in a 3/4 time section mean?

The section I am talking about is the one with the 16th note sextuplets.

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2305709 - 07/23/14 01:20 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
I'm looking right at it, and don't see any measure like that.

Can you be more specific on which measure you mean? (I see various measures with sextuplets, and some that I guess might sort of 'look like' they're 4/4 but aren't, if you look real closely at the note values and rests; anyway I'm not sure that any of those are what you mean.)

Top
#2305710 - 07/23/14 01:23 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7776
Loc: New York City
Mark....



Don't feed the troll.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2305711 - 07/23/14 01:26 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
caters Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 199
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
It is measure 56.

In the left hand it has a sixteenth note sextuplet followed by a quarter followed by 3 sixteenths followed by an eight rest followed by 3 16ths.

In the right hand it has a dotted eight followed by 4 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice.

Both of these are the length of a 4/4 measure.

Top
#2305713 - 07/23/14 01:33 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
We must be counting the measures differently.

I'm counting m. 56 as the one before a switch to 9/8, and it doesn't match what you're saying. Are you sure it's 56?


Poly: Looks reasonable to me. As long as it's reasonable, it's reasonable.

Top
#2305714 - 07/23/14 01:35 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
About 500 pianos.

Top
#2305715 - 07/23/14 01:35 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7776
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
We must be counting the measures differently.

I'm counting m. 56 as the one before a switch to 9/8, and it doesn't match what you're saying. Are you sure it's 56?

Mark...see my above comment.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2305717 - 07/23/14 01:37 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
OK -- you mean the whole thing is BS?

We'll see. If you're right, you were ahead of me. smile

Top
#2305719 - 07/23/14 01:41 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
This is similar to Chopin Op. 54, bar 75 where it changes to 12/16 time.

Top
#2305720 - 07/23/14 01:42 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
caters Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 199
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
The book I am getting it from is Selected Piano Music which is no. 22 in Everybody's Favorite Series of music books and the 4/4 measure in 3/4 time is measure 56 in there.

Top
#2305721 - 07/23/14 01:43 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
This is similar to a passage in Chopin Op. 54, bar 75. It changes to 12/16 time without any time signature preceding it.

That's not really a change.

Originally Posted By: caters
The book I am getting it from is Selected Piano Music which is no. 22 in Everybody's Favorite Series of music books and the 4/4 measure in 3/4 time is measure 56 in there.

Dunno what to tell you -- I'm not seeing anything like that.

Top
#2305722 - 07/23/14 01:46 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7776
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
This is similar to a passage in Chopin Op. 54, bar 75. It changes to 12/16 time without any time signature preceding it.

That's not really a change.

grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2305723 - 07/23/14 01:47 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
I counted wrong it's actually 15/8 time. But then a couple measures later it goes to 66/1 time. How are you supposed play that at tempo? You would need a lot of pianos.

Top
#2305728 - 07/23/14 01:56 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
caters Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 199
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
well I honestly counted how many quarters there is an equivalent of in that measure and the left hand had 4 quarters. It wasn't like a 4/4 3/4 polymeter or anything along those lines.

1st quarter, LH: sixteenth note sextuplet
1st quarter, RH: Dotted eighth followed by 2 32nds

2nd quarter, LH: quarter
2nd quarter, RH: 2 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths

3rd quarter, LH: 3 sixteenths followed by half of the eight rest
3rd quarter, RH: eighth rest followed by 2 sixteenths
4th quarter, LH: half of the eight rest followed by 3 sixteenths
almost a 4th quarter, RH: 1 sixteenth followed by eighth rest


Edited by caters (07/23/14 02:00 AM)

Top
#2305729 - 07/23/14 01:56 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: Bay Area, CA
caters isn't a troll. He just marches to the beat of his own drummer. (In a strangely notated time signature...)


-J
_________________________
Schubert Immersion: Bb Impromptu; C# minor and Ab Moments Musicaux; accompanying four songs (Suleika II, Rastlose Liebe, Du Liebst Mich Nicht, Im Fruhling); listening intensely to Die Schöne Müllerin and Winterreise

Chopin: first Ballade; Mozart: D minor concerto;

Top
#2305730 - 07/23/14 02:01 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18290
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: caters
The book I am getting it from is Selected Piano Music which is no. 22 in Everybody's Favorite Series of music books and the 4/4 measure in 3/4 time is measure 56 in there.


Well, remember that this is a transcription or an arrangement from what Wagner originally wrote for voice and orchestra. Unless we can see that exact transcription, there's no way we can adequately answer your question. It's even possible that the transcriber/arranger made a mistake, or that the editor made a printing error.

It's also possible, isn't it, that you have made a mistake?

Can you post an image of the page in question? If not, I don't think we can answer your question.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2305821 - 07/23/14 09:18 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
the nosy ape Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 723
Loc: Westford, MA
Originally Posted By: caters
In the right hand it has a dotted eight followed by 4 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice.

I count 3 beats in this measure.

Top
#2305903 - 07/23/14 11:48 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: the nosy ape]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18290
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: the nosy ape
Originally Posted By: caters
In the right hand it has a dotted eight followed by 4 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice.

I count 3 beats in this measure.


Right!

Break it down into thirty-second notes and you'll find you have a total of 24 thirty-second notes, the equivalent of three quarter notes.

beat 1 = dotted eighth plus the first two thirty-second notes = 8 thirty-second notes
beat 2 = two thirty-second notes plus three sixteenth-notes = 8 thirty-second notes
beat 3 = two eighth rests = 8 thirty-second notes


_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2306049 - 07/23/14 04:29 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
caters Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 199
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
but it has an eighth rest followed by 3 sixteenths followed by another eight rest in the RH.

This is equivalent to these beats

Beat 1: dotted eighth followed by 2 32nds

Beat 2: 2 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths

Beat 3: eight rest followed by 2 sixteenths

almost a 4th beat: 1 sixteenth followed by an eighth rest

Top
#2306057 - 07/23/14 04:36 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
caters Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 199
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
and by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice I don't mean the eighth rest alone twice. I mean that whole group of 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest is there twice.


So that measure is practically a 4/4 measure in both but is really a polymeter of 15/16 in the right hand and 4/4 in the left hand.


Edited by caters (07/23/14 04:50 PM)

Top
#2306086 - 07/23/14 05:41 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7776
Loc: New York City
ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2306101 - 07/23/14 06:28 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18290
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: caters
but it has an eighth rest followed by 3 sixteenths followed by another eight rest in the RH.

This is equivalent to these beats
Beat 1: dotted eighth followed by 2 32nds
Beat 2: 2 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths
Beat 3: eight rest followed by 2 sixteenths
almost a 4th beat: 1 sixteenth followed by an eighth rest


Well, that's not what you wrote before. If you can't post an image of the measures in question, I hardly think it's worth anyone's time to try figure out what you yourself don't seem to be observing from one post to the next.

In your first post you wrote that (some of?) the sixteenths were sextuplets; that would mean that six sixteenth-notes as sextuplets would be the equivalent of two eighth-notes. Later, you said nothing about the sixteenth-notes being sextuplets, so how are we supposed to figure this out?

Moreover, I hardly think that Wagner did not know how to count.

What I wrote in my last post was consistent with what you had written, and was equal to 3/4 time, and as nosy ape observed before me.
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2306644 - 07/24/14 06:11 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
caters Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 199
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
that is what I was meaning before when I said "3 sixteenths and an eight rest twice" was that whole group twice.

All sixteenths in the LH until the last 2 measures are sextuplets and then the second to last measure has them in the RH.

while the LH plays sextuplets the RH plays a lot of eighth note triplets which sixteenth note sextuplets are the same length as.

Top
#2306658 - 07/24/14 06:47 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
Sweet06 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 408
POST A EFFING PICTURE!!!
_________________________
"Doesn't practicing on the piano suck?!?!"
"The joy is in the practicing. It's like relationships. Yeah, orgasms are awesome, but you can't make love to someone who you have no relationship with!"

Top
#2306675 - 07/24/14 07:24 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5528
Originally Posted By: caters
that is what I was meaning before when I said "3 sixteenths and an eight rest twice" was that whole group twice.

All sixteenths in the LH until the last 2 measures are sextuplets and then the second to last measure has them in the RH.

while the LH plays sextuplets the RH plays a lot of eighth note triplets which sixteenth note sextuplets are the same length as.

You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#2306680 - 07/24/14 07:32 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: bennevis]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.
I'm almost turned on by this! grin

I mean this is all slang for S&N stuff, right? :P
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2306687 - 07/24/14 07:49 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Nikolas]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5528
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.
I'm almost turned on by this! grin

I mean this is all slang for S&N stuff, right? :P

My good mathematician friend, who supplied me with all the afore-mentioned figures, assures me that indeed, S∞N thumb.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#2306691 - 07/24/14 08:04 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: bennevis]
Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 441
Loc: Northern CA
Originally Posted By: bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.

Isn't it nontuplet? Wouldn't a nonuplet be not a tuplet at all, but a regular subdivision?
_________________________
Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci

Top
#2306698 - 07/24/14 08:19 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Parks]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5528
Originally Posted By: Parks
Originally Posted By: bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.

Isn't it nontuplet? Wouldn't a nonuplet be not a tuplet at all, but a regular subdivision?

You're right, it should be nontuplet. For some reason, the spell-checker on my laptop (which I still haven't worked out how to turn off) removed the 't' when my back was tturned.......
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#2306724 - 07/24/14 09:48 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: bennevis]
Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 441
Loc: Northern CA
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Parks
Originally Posted By: bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.

Isn't it nontuplet? Wouldn't a nonuplet be not a tuplet at all, but a regular subdivision?

You're right, it should be nontuplet. For some reason, the spell-checker on my laptop (which I still haven't worked out how to turn off) removed the 't' when my back was turned.......

Don't you mean, when your backed was urned?


Edited by Parks (07/24/14 10:44 PM)
_________________________
Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
- > Gift Ideas for Music Lovers < -
From PianoSupplies.com a division of Piano World.
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Restoration referrals needed
by Dewdman42
12/19/14 12:38 PM
Single note with a "harsh sound"
by i1lsia
12/19/14 12:23 PM
Schaff Bros baby grand piano $300
by Paul678
12/19/14 11:24 AM
What to Practice, Given My Goal
by st23
12/19/14 09:11 AM
Roland V Combo VR-09 Question
by contented
12/19/14 09:11 AM
Forum Stats
77354 Members
42 Forums
159986 Topics
2349435 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission