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#2307657 - 07/27/14 06:57 AM Something (Anything) Other Than ET
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
I have come across Ron Koval's endeavors on temperaments and have replaced ET for the majority of my tunings with the Koval 1.3.

It is not too far afield from ET and is more of a "Relaxed Fit" tuning-wise, ET with the corners rounded. ET thirds are stretched 13.7 cents. Koval 1.3's range is 11.9 to 15.2 which is what prompted me to try it. WOW.

In the development phase, Ron gave numerical names to his Temperament iterations and now is trying to assign appropriate monikers:

1.3 (11.9 -15.2 cents wide) Koval EqWell (KVEW)
1.7 (11.3 - 15.6 cents wide) Koval Mild Victorian (KVMV)
2.1 (10.7 - 16.1 cents wide) Koval Victorian (KVVT)
2.9 (9.6-17.0 cents wide) Koval Well (KVWT)

Some of Ron's iterations can be viewed at Jason Kanter's site under Modern Well:
http://www.rollingball.com/TemperamentsFrames.htm

Since the Koval 1.3 is not listed on the site yet, I'll offer the offsets:
A 0
A# 1.13
B -.65
C 1.3
C# -.17
D .52
D# .78
E -.52
F 1.3
F# -.35
G .87
G# .35

The best of both worlds. Nothing to jar modern tonal perceptions while offering key coloration. Enjoy...


Edited by Jon Page (07/27/14 09:17 PM)
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2307667 - 07/27/14 07:26 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
euh, what is it for ?

Is not the piano showing how you can tune , Jon ?

That VT100 (I dont know for the phone versions) is a somewhat good analysis tool, and an excellent thinking on the best way to make an ETD at the times it was developed, but nothing scientific, no direct output, recoverable files, no easy access to the data you can see moving on the screen that takes much attention).

I was suggested that the tool can be cheated by partials inconsistency even with the averaging of partials recording.

SO the quality and consistency of the recorded strings, accuracy of the partials compared with their theoretical iH, would be useful. So the tuner can be warned if one note is not "secure", for instance.

It is a great advantage to have that specialized circuitry, but tools where never given to acceed
ss the ata for better analysis, may be to protect the model ?

The initial idea of Ron Koval to use percentages of "zero beating" to create octaves sizes was an excellent way to approach consonance using the particularities of the ETD.

It guarantees that some level of consonance is clearly used for justness, anyway based on the spectra analysis realized by the circuitry.

I unfortunately find the results sounding as "unnatural" than other "perfect tunings" obtained with the VTT100. Those extreme compromising seem to rob some humanity to the result.

Now being able to admit and recognize that is not so easy when one play with a 1400 $ ETD, as with all the tool we buy, if expensive we will find them appropriate, and adapt our way of doing to the tool somehow.

To be really coherent, a previous training as piano tuner is a large advantage as the ear an brain have learned to appreciate tuning output in a more "organic way"

I mean, some tuning fit the piano as well cut trousers,
other change the silhouette of the harmony, design it, which can be helping or no the final results.

It happens quite often those days I simply cannot listen to some music due to the piano tuning sounding so far from the instrument.

Then what I hear is music notes, on their own... Without knowing how the piano was tuned, but even on somewhat old tunings, the evolving keep that imprint and the instrument is less than lively.

I will avoid sending you 50 video links that time ...

ALl the best






Edited by Olek (07/27/14 07:33 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2307669 - 07/27/14 07:34 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 220
Jon, how would you say this compares to EBVT-III?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2307672 - 07/27/14 07:48 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Olek, talk about being out in left field...
The offsets are for a temperament and not a stretch; of which Ron also has a series, as do I. And what makes you think I don't have a background as a strictly aural tuner (30 years BTW before I purchased the VT box in 2002 and now use an iPhone). IH dictates how the piano is tuned in setting the temperament and in regards to stretch, whether you choose to believe that an ETD can not handle that is something different.


Edited by Jon Page (07/27/14 09:44 AM)
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2307694 - 07/27/14 09:43 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
No I did not mean you where not an aural tuner. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
To obtain a quasi Et it is enough to follow the piano on a E3E4 span, to me.
It is fun to play with ETD, but try to have you captured on a camera, may be you will notice what I mean.

Regards.






Edited by Olek (07/27/14 09:44 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2307695 - 07/27/14 09:49 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Something is getting lost in the translation. I don't embrace a romantic view of tuning.

Unless you've tried the temperament, it's all conjecture.


Edited by Jon Page (07/27/14 09:51 AM)
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2307849 - 07/27/14 04:01 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Yes I am all for Romanticism in tuning wink

iH influences the tuning it does not "dictates it".

The cts are probably a good mean to measure pitches but not so much on pianos. It is probably the best we can come close to but the instrument have semi tones that are more than 100 cts, or I do not understand the definition.

I do not believe a few cts here and a few cts there can describe a temperament (particularity when created from someone that did not learn to tune by ear at all!)

if I am bored with ET an I have a sonorous enough piano, I know what I do, it is easier than ET and done very fast.

I just do not force th piano to compromising an allow it to decide for the 5ths in the low range then base the rest of the tuning on those , with minimal reconciliation if something begins to scream or sound too much off.
Usually we are obliged to refrain ourselves to follow the instrument, due to too much iH to allow that. We need to "follow the rules" and the piano like to follow his ones, so conciliating the 2 point of views is not always easy.

I tune as when I am having a walk with my dog, I leave more or less length to the piano to run !

But I think I talk of something little tuners use or experiment in their daily job.

Regards









Edited by Olek (07/27/14 04:03 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2307893 - 07/27/14 06:26 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Thanks Jon, glad you are enjoying the EqWell!


I've been reading and participating in these ETD/Aural ET/other tuning/temperament discussions online for ... decades?? (wow, guess I'm old!)

It is so interesting that the push back comes in contradictory packages.

ETDs aren't good enough to make a real ET / ETDs make the ET too clinical

The display isn't precise enough to do proper work / it is easier to aurally make a tuning 'work' as conditions change - ETDs are too precise.

Only ET tunings are accepted by artists / only piano technicians can judge the quality of a tuning.

Cents offsets can't be used to create a tuning / cents offsets are the way to test against a master tuning

there are probably more that I've forgotten to add...

My temperament creating experiments finished with my variable temperament that was put on the rollingball website in 2002. I found that this particular one played well as the offsets were multiplied or divided to make a stronger or weaker version - different from many of the historical models I had tried. I focus on the mild temperaments, so to get up to the strength of the EBVTIII, you'd need to move to the KVWT (old 2.9 strength - the numbers related to the offset for C and F)

After years of use, I've found that the strengths that Jon posted make particularly good sounding tunings. The EqWell is my equal replacement, and I attribute that temperament with what I hear back from clients - "that special something that you do with your tunings are better than what we've had before".

Jason Kanter is working on updating the website, so it might be a bit before any of the Koval temperaments show up in graph form.

It is one of the joys of working with the Verituner community that Jon and I have been able to hear how other tuners from around the world approach the tuning puzzle. We can sample the stretch style on a particular model of piano - recently, a tech compared three or more different stretches on a Stwy B in a short period of time. Even though each of the three were within a cent or so of each other, the differences in the resultant tuning led him to choose a clear winner for his ears.

Cool stuff.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2307940 - 07/27/14 09:28 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Ron's temperament series groups different strength temperaments in a nice package. I only have the offsets for KVEW but would like to try the rest at some point. All of my customers who delved into the WT waters migrated to a narrower difference between the cycle of fifths and anything that approached 17 cents was to edgy. My go-to non-ET was the DiVeroli - Almost Equal until I tried KVEW, my customers are ecstatic too.

Correction: I found the offsets for the above mentioned temperament series in my VT under Well Temperaments. They are now listed on Jason's site, you may need to remove that cookie from your cache to view, I did anyway.


Edited by Jon Page (07/27/14 11:03 PM)
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2307944 - 07/27/14 10:06 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
The www.rollingball.com site has the updated Koval temperament graphs. I needed to clear my cache using Chrome to see the update. Otherwise, I got an error message. Other browsers may handle it better...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2308004 - 07/28/14 02:52 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 220
I use tunelab, but I guess I can use the same offsets?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2308040 - 07/28/14 07:44 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Yes, the offsets work the same with any platform that allows user defined temperaments... Of course, the better the ETD manages to find an appropriate ET stretch, the better the result when another temperament is the goal.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2308088 - 07/28/14 10:10 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: RonTuner]
Jordan P Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 11
When you (meaning anyone reading this) tune for clients using this temperament or any other than ET, do you tell your client beforehand? Or do you just do it then hope they like it as well as you do?


Edited by Jordan P (07/28/14 10:30 AM)
_________________________
Jordan P.

Piano Technician
Piano Teacher
Church Organist

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#2308157 - 07/28/14 01:10 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jordan P]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1162
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Jordan P
When you (meaning anyone reading this) tune for clients using this temperament or any other than ET, do you tell your client beforehand? Or do you just do it then hope they like it as well as you do?


Greetings,
No, not usually. I have been swapping temperaments around at Vanderbilt, often two different ones in the same studio for years, getting professional feedback. It adds depth to music that was written during earlier days, and seems to detract little from more modern stuff. I think it is only tuners that have trouble finding musical worth in a 17 cent third, because the musicians I am around seem to love it. The teachers that are listening to beginners go through the easy pieces all day like the relief from so much dissonance as would be created by ET.

Few clients are sufficiently aware of what a temperament is, but many know what music sounds like, to them. When they are faced with an intellectual enigma, (a new temperament?), they begin the consideration in ignorance, which is threatening to many. The fact that it is a change tells them that they are expected to judge something, and this instantly puts things in the "challenge" arena. I have found this a poor way to introduce tonality.

If they sit down at their piano after I have tuned it, and it makes them feel better than it has in the past, THEN is the time to describe the change. It is also instructive to see how many people don't notice the difference. So far, over the last 20 years, the customers that prefer to return to ET is about 5%. The customers that have had an epiphany with their classical repertoire is about 50%. Songwriters,( with which this town is infested) have preferred the WT 100%. Jazz musicians here are about evenly split, but the head of the university's chamber ensemble has just requested a mild WT for their practice space.
On the list of rejecters are several large names, like Ronnie Milsap and Ray Stevens, as well as several session piano guys in town. Producers don't like non-ET because they want the freedom to change key by 1/2 step without everything changing, (this is for vocalist voice preference).

Regards,

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#2308165 - 07/28/14 01:52 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Ed Foote]
Jordan P Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: Jordan P
When you (meaning anyone reading this) tune for clients using this temperament or any other than ET, do you tell your client beforehand? Or do you just do it then hope they like it as well as you do?


Greetings,
No, not usually. I have been swapping temperaments around at Vanderbilt, often two different ones in the same studio for years, getting professional feedback. It adds depth to music that was written during earlier days, and seems to detract little from more modern stuff. I think it is only tuners that have trouble finding musical worth in a 17 cent third, because the musicians I am around seem to love it. The teachers that are listening to beginners go through the easy pieces all day like the relief from so much dissonance as would be created by ET.

Few clients are sufficiently aware of what a temperament is, but many know what music sounds like, to them. When they are faced with an intellectual enigma, (a new temperament?), they begin the consideration in ignorance, which is threatening to many. The fact that it is a change tells them that they are expected to judge something, and this instantly puts things in the "challenge" arena. I have found this a poor way to introduce tonality.

If they sit down at their piano after I have tuned it, and it makes them feel better than it has in the past, THEN is the time to describe the change. It is also instructive to see how many people don't notice the difference. So far, over the last 20 years, the customers that prefer to return to ET is about 5%. The customers that have had an epiphany with their classical repertoire is about 50%. Songwriters,( with which this town is infested) have preferred the WT 100%. Jazz musicians here are about evenly split, but the head of the university's chamber ensemble has just requested a mild WT for their practice space.
On the list of rejecters are several large names, like Ronnie Milsap and Ray Stevens, as well as several session piano guys in town. Producers don't like non-ET because they want the freedom to change key by 1/2 step without everything changing, (this is for vocalist voice preference).

Regards,


Thank you for your very informative response, Ed. I have been wanting to tune other temperaments for clients and have been thinking of approaching it in the same way you mentioned. I feel less hesitant about it now. Thank you for your statistics as well. Very interesting.


Edited by Jordan P (07/28/14 01:53 PM)
Edit Reason: Typo
_________________________
Jordan P.

Piano Technician
Piano Teacher
Church Organist

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#2308241 - 07/28/14 05:55 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Today I tuned KVEW on two pianos, S&S M for a piano teacher (told her) and SD10 for a piano recital (they'll only notice ...something). I also tuned two pianos in KVMV, S&S A in a church which sounded magnificently and will be perfect for banging out hymns and the other an old HF Miller grand, again sounded so much like ET but without the edge. An ET without the attitude.

One nice thing about Ron's series is that it is one stop shopping for a temperament. A temperament buffet. Besides the thirds being in a comfortable range, the fifths are too. These are my new standard.
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2308274 - 07/28/14 07:36 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jordan P]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1162
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Jordan P
I have been wanting to tune other temperaments for clients and have been thinking of approaching it in the same way you mentioned. I feel less hesitant about it now. Thank you for your statistics as well. Very interesting.


Greetings,
I should have mentioned something that accompanied my idea of introducing customers to new temperaments. I always made it clear that I would tune it, at no charge, back to ET if they didn't like the way the piano sounded, just not for a couple of weeks. Don't get many takers.
Regards,

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#2308284 - 07/28/14 07:54 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Here's what just came in from the piano teacher with the M today with KVEW:

Well, Jon, I won't disappoint you! Hear the difference? I had to look several times to be certain you hadn't removed my Mr. S. and brought in a Bosendorfer. Immediately, the richness was obvious; I did not have to work at bringing out inner voices---they emerged voluntarily. Nothing is work; it is pure joy. Jon, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

Of course, this is nothing new from those first exposed to WT's. One pianist stated that she no longer had to try so hard to place expression into the music, it was already written in.


Edited by Jon Page (07/28/14 11:13 PM)
Edit Reason: more text
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2308330 - 07/28/14 11:34 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I haven't had much time to read or try to participate on here lately but I am always glad to see this kind of subject come up. I thank Ed Foote for the perfect response!

Really, the only people who are interested in and think that beat speeds of Major Thirds must be absolutely smooth to make music sound its best are piano technicians who primarily focus on tuning. One minor glitch in that and it's all over! It's not perfect so the music is ruined!

But really, nothing could be further from the truth, at least for most performers. What is totally ignored, apparently, is the power and meaning of the Key Signature. The non-equal temperaments provide what is missing in ET, plain and simple.

Of course, one can go too far and then there may be a reaction and the demand to go BACK to ET! But was it ever really ET to begin with? ET is an infinitely unattainable goal but there will always be people beating their heads against the wall and pulling their hair out to try to reach that goal thinking it will make the music sound better. Sorry to say, it won't. The same amount of energy spent elsewhere in the refinement of the piano definitely would, however.

Technicians seem to be finally coming to that realization. While I have heard the "Temperament doesn't matter, unisons and octaves do" phrase for decades, I am hearing it much more now than before. There is pressure to relax the tolerances now for temperament on the PTG tuning exam but come down harder on the rest, especially stability and stability of unisons.

Great piano technicians of the past and present have long known that performing artists rarely if ever would or could discern the minute distinctions of Rapidly Beating Intervals (RBI) the way that most piano technicians can. But if you can give those clients some sense of key signature distinction, they will eat it up!

It is all in how far you go with it. If you, as a technician want to explore this realm, you will have to employ your own sensitivity as a musician. If you decide to divide the scale according to key signature as any Well Temperament (and several other ideas) has to offer, you will have three mild Major Thirds (M3) in the F3-F4 Temperament octave: F3-A3, G3-B3 and C4-E4. There will be two moderate M3's: A3-C#4 and A#3-D4. There will be 4 "harsh" M3's: F#-A#3, G#3-C4, B3-D#4 and C#4-F4. You will want to concentrate mostly on whether the "harsh" M3's seem tolerable to your ear or not.

Whatever harshness is reduced in the the harsh M3's will also reduce the mildness in the mild M3's. Some people may even perceive a very mild M3 as being "dead". So, there can be a seemingly perfect balance for all of it.

When I was formulating the EBVT, that is what I was looking for. The ultimate solution for me, the EBVT III was merely a concoction that would be easily replicable by ear. Electronic Tuning Devices (ETD) can produce any imaginable gradation such as in the infinite gradations of Meantone.

From what Jim Coleman, Sr. told me, he always had the A3-C#4 as being the same (or possibly very nearly the same) as in ET (which would be a 14 cent wide M3) but he made every other interval either narrower or wider than that according to the Key Signature. That is also what Ron Koval did. It is also what I did with other Well Temperaments and Mild Meantone Temperaments that I proposed in past years.

I don't really believe there is one "Holy Grail", that one temperament that really does it better than any other. Sure, there was a lot of interest in the EBVT and EBVT III but the effects are very similar to other temperaments. While I still believe that there is a certain "magic" that happens when there are so many equally beating intervals, there are some people out there now who say that whatever that effect may be is only in the imagination.

There is no canceling effect in equally beating intervals! They will seem twice as fast and twice as loud! (According to the "research" that has been done about that). Hmmm. OK. Whatever. If you say so. I don't believe it but maybe some people will.

I was amused in any case to read about one performing artist who could not tolerate anything but ET because I well remember an incident where that artist was said to have angrily stomped his foot in the dampers of a Steinway Model D piano because of the temperament. The temperament he didn't like was not a purposefully executed Well Temperament or any other kind of Cycle of 5ths based, Key Signature related temperament but exactly the opposite of that, Reverse Well!

It is the technicians who don't know what they are doing and don't know what they don't know who are responsible for that kind of thing happening. The single minded, heck bent drive to have fifths sound more pure than they can be and the "chickening out" (as Jim Coleman, Sr. called it) of an octave wide enough to accommodate it, results every time in an ass backwards Well Temperament!

What Key Signature is supposed to mean is then turned inside out! Everything sounds wrong! It was enough for a highly acclaimed artist (whose name I will not mention) to get up and stomp on the piano!

I also do not generally discuss Temperament with my clients. A few of them, yes but most, I let experience what I have to offer as simply the way I tune the piano. I already know that most any other technician is simply going to program an ETD and do whatever it says and tune every string one time and that is what is called and charged for as a piano tuning.

I take each piano that I service as an individual and special case of its own. What will make the most positive difference in this piano? Sometimes, it can be how fast and soon I am done with it and it sounds marvelous! Sometimes, it may not be so much how perfectly it is tuned but how well it plays now. Sometimes, it may not take long to tune at all but the voicing I do is what the client was really interested in but could not tell me what to do but I sensed it in what was said to me before I began to service the piano.

One aspect, however is a common thread through all of it and that is that I never tune a piano in strict ET! I have not for 25 years now. Anybody who may be looking for the ultimate perfection of ET as being a goal worth pursuing is looking for love in all the wrong places!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2308332 - 07/28/14 11:37 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Jon Page
Here's what just came in from the piano teacher with the M today with KVEW:

Well, Jon, I won't disappoint you! Hear the difference? I had to look several times to be certain you hadn't removed my Mr. S. and brought in a Bosendorfer. Immediately, the richness was obvious; I did not have to work at bringing out inner voices---they emerged voluntarily. Nothing is work; it is pure joy. Jon, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

Of course, this is nothing new from those first exposed to WT's. One pianist stated that she no longer had to try so hard to place expression into the music, it was already written in.


Yes, the "inner voices" are what keep my customers coming back to me! I can only imagine what the "outer voices" of Reverse Well must sound like to the same people!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2308346 - 07/29/14 12:30 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Jordan P Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 11
Thank you for your response, Bill. You addressed something that has always been a source of confusion for me with ET. I have had a hard time understanding what the point is of composing music in different keys when all keys sound essentially the same in ET. I realize they didn't all sound the same in the past, but in today's ET world they do. In fact, I tuned a piano for a client last week who composes music. I asked him how he decides which key to compose in. He didn't give a real clear answer but said something along the lines of different keys having different character. I don't really hear that in ET but I do in temperaments such as yours and Mr. Koval's.


Edited by Jordan P (07/29/14 10:09 AM)
Edit Reason: Typo
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Jordan P.

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#2308554 - 07/29/14 03:01 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Ed A. Hall Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 260
I decided to try out Koval's 1.3 on a 1934 Mason & Hamlin A. I then made a few recordings of it. The piano is very worn out and in desperate need of some major work done but it still sings. You'll at least be able to hear how it sounds with it's original hammers that are very worn out. Let me know what you think.

http://youtu.be/ezvHGu6Jr2s

http://youtu.be/9CMAHCRMG5g

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#2308988 - 07/30/14 03:17 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
For those of you new to this.... You'll do yourself a big favor to go over to www.rollingball.com, where Jason Kanter has done a great job to help technicians and piano owners visualize all these temperaments.

To help understand the graphs, take the circle of fifths, cut it at the top and lay it down in a horizontal line like this:

C G D A.... and back to C

If we take a look at an equal(ish) temperament, it would then look like this:


All those red bars represent how wide of pure each of the home(tonic) major thirds are for each key. The left and right bars are both C-E thirds. If the thirds were near pure, they would be very short. If they are wide of pure they would be tall. Each equal temperament third should be just under 14 cents wide of pure. (100 cents is the measurement between half steps.) Realize that even though they all measure the same, they beat at different speeds. If we re-ordered the keys in chromatic order, each would increase so that the leftmost C-E beat half as slow as the rightmost C-E (that might become important if we get to equal beating, and temperament trumping the doubling of the octave beat speed rate)

The graph for my EqWell (1.3 strength) looks like this:


You'll find me under the "modern well" catagory...

Notice the faint, bell-shaped curve? As we move through the circle of fifths to the bottom, the widths of the tonic thirds increase, and then decrease back to C-E.

My other temperaments just increase the slope a bit:





For comparison, this is a graph of the EBVTIII: Notice the difference in how high and low the red bars appear.


Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2309098 - 07/30/14 08:55 PM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

It is all in how far you go with it. If you, as a technician want to explore this realm, you will have to employ your own sensitivity as a musician. If you decide to divide the scale according to key signature as any Well Temperament (and several other ideas) has to offer, you will have three mild Major Thirds (M3) in the F3-F4 Temperament octave: F3-A3, G3-B3 and C4-E4. There will be two moderate M3's: A3-C#4 and A#3-D4. There will be 4 "harsh" M3's: F#-A#3, G#3-C4, B3-D#4 and C#4-F4. You will want to concentrate mostly on whether the "harsh" M3's seem tolerable to your ear or not.


The "harsh M3's G#3-C4, should Ab major is rather tense key?

I am going to play Waltz in A Flat - Op.39, n.15.
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#2309213 - 07/31/14 06:38 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Until Ron Koval's temperaments surfaced, to introduce someone to WT's you'd use either the Moore or Broadwood's Best. As 'mild' as these are, they produced some 3rds and 5ths which didn't settle well with my customers. After trying many non-ET's, I ended up with the DiVeroli - Almost Equal (AE), which was a crowd pleaser. The Koval EqWell has a different character which I can only describe as 'low tension' from AE, in a word...smooth. Also, the 3rds and 5ths that are not unsettling as with many non-ET's. Even the Mild Vic can be an ET substitute, especially for churches.

Yesterday, an ET devotee liked EqWell so much that he wants the Mild Vic on his B at the church. Many years ago, I tuned all the pianos at a music school (where he was) in different temperaments. I displayed Jason's charts in the corridor. Everything from ET and Moore to Werckmeister and Young. 9 pianos in all. He didn't mind the Mild Vic's but liked ET the best. So this is a pretty big deal to convert this guy.

Here's what you can do if you want to introduce someone to a more musical temperament but are a little leary. Pitch raise into KVEW. If the piano owner does not like it, it is not difficult to make the second pass in ET. Chances are they will like the change/improvement. From there, they might even want to see what's in store with more difference within the cycle of fifths.

There is no reason to be stuck in ET any longer. Someone might even develop a preference for the stronger WT's.


Edited by Jon Page (07/31/14 06:40 AM)
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Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2309219 - 07/31/14 07:16 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Jon Page
Until Ron Koval's temperaments surfaced, to introduce someone to WT's you'd use either the Moore or Broadwood's Best.

That's funny. I'm sure there's been another guy here who developed his own mild WT!


Edited by Chris Leslie (07/31/14 07:16 AM)
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Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2309240 - 07/31/14 08:11 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Chris Leslie]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Jon Page
Until Ron Koval's temperaments surfaced, to introduce someone to WT's you'd use either the Moore or Broadwood's Best.

That's funny. I'm sure there's been another guy here who developed his own mild WT!


The tempering of the 3rds and 5ths is what I am talking about. KVWT is milder than EBVT. Ron's lesser tempered iterations are milder yet. I like EBVT but my customers do not like the higher tempered 3rds and 5ths.

I have not compared any of The Koval Series to anything but ET. That is where I place their application as a substitute or intro to a non-ET. Once introduced to Ron's, they might migrate to something stronger such as EBVT or a One Eighth Comma Modified Meantone or beyond.

it's a brave new/old world.


Edited by Jon Page (07/31/14 08:15 AM)
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2309254 - 07/31/14 08:54 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Also, since all 4 of mine are the same temperament, (only stronger/weaker) to tune from one to another only needs the slightest adjustment...


Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2309297 - 07/31/14 10:39 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
That is incredible to take example on tuners that never tune without a box. How can you be confident in its listening ability and musical taste?
If only he is a pianist may be he can test by himself and get some conclusions.
I cannot be confident in a machine for those sort of things. See for instance the second recording here above. The initial fourth in the melodic line just sound really wrong

to me. Indeed not a "pro" tuning but this was dictated by an ETD. This is more shocking because it is the start of the phrase, once the begin have no clear foundation, the rest of the melody make me think of a mikado...


Edited by Olek (07/31/14 10:41 AM)
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#2309305 - 07/31/14 11:00 AM Re: Something (Anything) Other Than ET [Re: Jon Page]
gynnis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 121
Loc: Florida, Connecticut
Look at Owen H Jorgensen's 1991 book "Tuning". It is full of 18th and 19th century temperaments.
_________________________
Seiler 206, Chickering 145, Estey 2 manual reed organ, Fudge clavichord, Zuckerman single harpsichord, Technics P-30, Roland RD-100.

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