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#2308313 - 07/28/14 10:44 PM Digital keyboard actions and price range question.
Indra123 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/21/14
Posts: 7
Thanks to everyone who has helped me thus far and replied to my topics, especially Charles and Fizikisto. The more I research the more I find what my needs are. It might be best until I can save up a solid 3-4 grand and get something that feels exactly like a grand and will last me till I get a top-end piano in my later years.

It's part of my question. At what price range do digital keyboard actions start to feel completely identical to a grand? I'm assuming not all brands have the same action (obviously) but all grands have a roughly similar fulcrum, which, is what a digital keyboard lacks. What price range is most realistically close to a grand?

If I can get something in the 2-3 grand area, then I'll save up, I think it's worth it. If I have to dish out 5 grand +, I'm probably going to just go with the Kawai ES100 or Casio PX350.

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#2308327 - 07/28/14 11:28 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Indra123]
fizikisto Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 305
Loc: Hernando, MS
Indra123
You're welcome smile. As to your other queries, just a few comments. First of all, your back up choices of the ES-100 or Px350 suggest that you're looking for a slab style digital piano rather than a console style. At the higher end, slab style pianos tend not to have built in speakers, so that will be an extra expense and hassle. on the other hand, you do get portability and perhaps some extra features.

You should also be aware that any two given acoustic grand pianos can have very different feeling actions. In fact, there can be as much (or more) variation between two acoustic pianos as there is between an acoustic grand and a high end digital piano. But, if you're going for the most realistic action, I think your two choices are really Roland and Kawai.

The Roland actions tend to be a bit lighter. The Kawai actions tend to be a bit heavier. I prefer the lighter action of the Roland, but that's just a personal preference. The slab piano from each company with the best action is

1) The Roland RD-800 which sells for around $2500 and 2) the Kawai MP11 which sells for around $2800

Add $500-1000 for external speakers and speaker stands (though of course you could get by with a nice pair of headphones for awhile as a much cheaper option)

For a console style piano, I'd look at the kawai CA-65 or the Roland DP-90SE. I think those are the best models within your price range, but there may be some cheaper options that are suitable (that have the same action, but maybe less powerful built in speakers and a somewhat cheaper build quality perhaps).

I wouldn't be surprised if others make more suggestions to you, but maybe that could be a good start for your further research. smile


Edited by fizikisto (07/28/14 11:29 PM)
_________________________
Nord Stage 2 HA88
Yamaha P-250

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#2308335 - 07/28/14 11:48 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Indra123]
ColoRodney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
I have a Kawai grand piano, and a Kawai ES7 (slab piano with speakers). They feel different, but I have no trouble at all playing good music on both of them. I gig a fair amount, so the easy portability and decent built-in speakers on the ES7 are a big deal for me.

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#2308341 - 07/29/14 12:09 AM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Indra123]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1180
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
FWIW --

[quote] . . . something that feels exactly like a grand . . . [quote]

"Exactly" is a funny word.

What you're looking for is a "blind test" result:

. . . which digital keyboard (including its sound generator) cannot be
. . . distinguished by a skilled player from an acoustic grand,
. . . if the player is blindfolded.

Dollar to doughnuts, _nobody_ ever did that test on _any_ serious DP, and documented the result. Three reasons why not:

1. It would stop some of the marketing arguments among DP makers;

2. You'd need a serious pianist who was willing to be be the tester. And there are very few of those who think that _any_ DP could _ever_ be "as good as a grand". [This is a matter of religious faith.]

. . . So if he/she couldn't distinguish, he/she could become a subject of ridicule in the piano community.

3. From what I read on this forum, there's no digital piano that would make the grade, yet.

"bennevis" (on this forum) loves his Roland V-Piano, but he doesn't quite say:

. . . This plays and sounds like an acoustic grand.

The Yamaha Avant Grand's are pretty good, according to some classical players. That is, they're good enough to practice on, without affecting your technique. For example, see here:

http://helenhousandi.com/2010/02/review-yamaha-avantgrand-n3/

As I understand it, the AvantGrand action isn't _quite_ the same as an acoustic grand, but it's pretty close.

I can tell you that to _my_ ears and fingers (no claims of greatness for either one), there's a substantial improvement (in touch and sound) in going from a Casio PX-350 to a Roland RD-80. I haven't tried the upper-level Kawai's, but I expect they'd also be in that "better than entry-level" category.

When testing, I made it a point to stay away from the AvantGrands and V-piano -- didn't want to cry too much about what I was missing, staying within my budget. [Used V-pianos are substantially cheaper than new V-pianos; I don't know about AvantGrands.]

I think you're going to have to get to some piano shops and experiment. When you find a DP that feels, and sounds, like the acoustic grand sitting next to it, let us know.

I think Morodiene has some ideas about this question . . . and you should read Rachel Jimenez's "fundamentalkeys.com" blog on using a digital piano for practice.

. Charles

PS -- I have been quite pleased with the sound coming out of Pianoteq software. And I can live with my PX-350 action, driving Pianoteq through a MIDI connection. But I won't say:

. . . This feels and sounds like a grand piano.

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#2308347 - 07/29/14 12:30 AM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Indra123]
littlebirdblue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/14
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: Indra123
At what price range do digital keyboard actions start to feel completely identical to a grand?


Supposedly, Yamaha N1 as well as N2 and N3 have keyboard action that is identical to a grand piano but opinions on this vary. I had a chance to try a N2 and I don't think I can justify spending over $10,000 on the current model. N1 costs a lot less but I've read feedback here that it doesn't feel the same as N2/3.


Originally Posted By: Indra123
If I can get something in the 2-3 grand area, then I'll save up, I think it's worth it. If I have to dish out 5 grand +, I'm probably going to just go with the Kawai ES100 or Casio PX350.


That was my sentiment. I kept on looking and trying out different models but I wasn't in love with anything in particular so I bought a Casio PX150 and now that I connected it to Pianoteq, playing it is a lot of fun and I have no major complains. I'm hoping though that Kawai would release VPC2 with GF sooner or later.

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#2308448 - 07/29/14 10:42 AM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Indra123]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
The thing about the blind test that Charles refers to is that an experienced pianist would know right away they are playing on a digital due to the sound. It's also pretty hard to separate the action from the sound on an acoustic, but it can be done and perhaps that would be the best test: no sound for either, just the action. Acoustic actions vary from piano to piano, even within the same model and even when both are well-regulated.

Having said all that, when looking for a DP, instead of worrying about it being just like an acoustic, go for what you feel is best. Everyone has their own opinions, and for me, I enjoy playing on many different kinds of pianos. Some work better for a certain style period, but mostly, you can coax different things out of different instruments regardless of what style period or genre you're playing.

littlebirdblue: Have you tried the VPC1? Did you not care for the action on that? I was very impressed with it and would have kept it if my needs didn't require that I have on-board sounds.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2308585 - 07/29/14 03:59 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Charles Cohen]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4850
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
From what I read on this forum, there's no digital piano that would make the grade, yet.

"bennevis" (on this forum) loves his Roland V-Piano, but he doesn't quite say:

. . . This plays and sounds like an acoustic grand.

The Yamaha Avant Grand's are pretty good, according to some classical players.


Why, thank you. grin

That's right, no DP, not even my V, plays and sounds truly like an acoustic grand. But what I can say is that the closest I've ever got to that is the V-Piano Grand, which supplies the missing ingredient from the V slab, namely the speakers producing the sounds from within the cabinet from all the right places, and the resulting 'spatial' effect which is, of course, missing when I use headphones on my V.

It's impossible to divorce key action from the sound, and the way the sound changes according to how you play, or its responsiveness. With acoustics, there's no way to disconnect the sound from the action completely (unless you have a deaf pianist), so there's no way to compare directly with a DP which isn't switched on. People often think a bright-sounding piano (or one that quickly produces a lot of overtones when played louder) has lighter key weight than a mellow-sounding one, for instance.

The AGs have pretty good key action (which isn't a true grand action despite what Yamaha would have us believe), but feel heavier and more sluggish than that of most acoustic grands (including the Yamaha CFX), and personally, if I had one, I'd only use it purely as a practice instrument, for mechanical practicing (endless repetition of difficult passages etc) and learning the notes, not one that I'd play on purely for pleasure. (BTW, this is also how classical pianists who own one use it). It just doesn't 'connect' to the pianist anything like the V, nor even any of the Roland RDs, in terms of the way it responds to the touch. It has too many 'electronic artifices' - looping, obvious ceiling to the dynamic and tonal ranges etc - for me to be able to lose myself into playing it, and forget that there is no mechanical connection between my playing and the sound (which I can do with the Vs).

Really, I think that when choosing a DP, get the one within your price range that feels and sounds the best to you. Not one that someone else really likes, but which you're not too sure of. In fact, this goes for choosing an acoustic piano too.

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#2308665 - 07/29/14 06:36 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Indra123]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 253
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Indra123
It might be best until I can save up a solid 3-4 grand and get something that feels exactly like a grand and will last me till I get a top-end piano.

At what price range do digital keyboard actions start to feel completely identical to a grand?

If I can get something in the 2-3 grand area, then I'll save up, I think it's worth it. If I have to dish out 5 grand +, I'm probably going to just go with the Kawai ES100 or Casio PX350.


If there is a $3,000 DP that feels exactly like a grand, then nobody would need to spend $20,000 or $30,000 for a real grand piano, and that's just a standard grand piano, not an expensive one.

The best result would be to spend about $2,000 on a digital piano with good enough action then spend another $1,000 on software piano, computer, digital interface, and nice pair of powered studio monitor speakers. Maybe you'll need to budget a little more than $1,000. You could get pretty good results with this setup.

DP that by themselves come close to a real grand piano in touch and feel are way above the budget you stated.
_________________________
Practice is never finished, only abandoned.
Studying RCM Level 5 | Yamaha C3X

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#2308678 - 07/29/14 06:59 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Indra123]
CarloPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 167
Originally Posted By: "littlebirdblue"
Supposedly, Yamaha N1 as well as N2 and N3 have keyboard action that is identical to a grand piano


No, it isn't. Is an adapted action, with several parts identical but it lacks one that I think is essential to have a real piano feel: there are no dampers frown

@Charles Cohen, I think it's very interesting what you say.

I don't know if they already regret it or they maintain their word but 5 years ago both Katsaris and Kobrin, excellent concert pianists, made videos and wrote for brocures what in my opinion were a little exaggerated claims about the Avantgrand.

Anyway, adding my humble opinion to this interesting thread, I would say that, despite it's weakness, today the closest touch to acoustic pianos is Avantgrand's but I'm not impressed by the sound engine nor speakers and, as I said, it's a pity nobody has still emulated the dampers on DP's actions, specially on something as expensive as the Avantgrand is.

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#2308755 - 07/29/14 10:38 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Morodiene]
littlebirdblue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/14
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
littlebirdblue: Have you tried the VPC1? Did you not care for the action on that? I was very impressed with it and would have kept it if my needs didn't require that I have on-board sounds.


We only have one Kawai dealer in town and they don't carry any stage DPs. frown

My DD takes lesson on a C7 and its touch is relatively light so I thought the slightly lighter GH touch might be a better fit but in reality, I'm not sure if it'd going to make any difference.

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#2308756 - 07/29/14 10:41 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: littlebirdblue]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: littlebirdblue
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
littlebirdblue: Have you tried the VPC1? Did you not care for the action on that? I was very impressed with it and would have kept it if my needs didn't require that I have on-board sounds.


We only have one Kawai dealer in town and they don't carry any stage DPs. frown

My DD takes lesson on a C7 and its touch is relatively light so I thought the slightly lighter GH touch might be a better fit but in reality, I'm not sure if it'd going to make any difference.
Well, while Yamahas tend to be light, it's still a C7 and thus has a bit more weight to it than would a really light action. Have your DD test out different actions and see which she prefers. Really, I don't think you can go wrong unless you go in one extreme or the other. With a DP, of course, making a switch isn't that painful.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2308777 - Yesterday at 12:18 AM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: littlebirdblue]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8877
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: littlebirdblue
We only have one Kawai dealer in town and they don't carry any stage DPs. frown


This is often the case with acoustic-oriented dealers. However, assuming they stock Kawai's console digital instruments, it may be possible to play-test a model with the same (or similar) keyboard action as the stage instrument in order to understand how it will feel.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2308778 - Yesterday at 12:18 AM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Morodiene]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 253
Loc: USA
My tech proved to me using weights that a Yamaha grand is no heavier or lighter than a Steinway. He is a concert tech and he has worked on lots of concert pianos, so when he said the down weight of my Yamaha is essentially the same as a Steinway, I would tend to believe him. The way he explains it, because Yamaha hammers start out harder and sound bright and need to be voiced down, and harder hammers regardless of brand tend to feel lighter compared to softer hammers of NY Steinway which start out soft needing to be voiced up. After he voice down my Yamaha, the action would feel heavier even though he didn't mess with the action at all. I feel that the general belief that Yamaha action is light is incorrect. It's just that so many Yamaha out there have a brighter sound resulting in a perception of lighter touch because in general piano owners seldom maintain their hammers in their pianos over time. A mellow C7 voiced for classical music should not have light feeling action. Also, GH is not particularly light. Some feel GH requires a higher down force than a grand piano and prefer the NW3 or NWX because those are lighter. Again, compared to which grand piano? Even if they all have exactly the same 50g down force, one could feel lighter than another depending on so many factors like voicing and action geometry. To me the GHS is definitely on the light side compared to my grand piano.
_________________________
Practice is never finished, only abandoned.
Studying RCM Level 5 | Yamaha C3X

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#2308859 - Yesterday at 08:30 AM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: 8 Octaves]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3158
Originally Posted By: 8 Octaves
My tech proved to me using weights that a Yamaha grand is no heavier or lighter than a Steinway.

But not even all Yamahas or Steinways are the same. The Yamaha G3 I played at a venue felt noticeably lighter than my C6 (and my C6 still feels lighter than a lot of DPs I've played).

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#2308863 - Yesterday at 08:50 AM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Indra123]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1180
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
There are (at least) two different meanings for "weight", here:

1. The "static weight" of the key -- how many pennies do you have to put on it,
before it starts to descend?

2. The "dynamic mass" (really "mass", not "weight") of the key -- how hard do you have to press it, to achieve some standard velocity at the hammer ?

The two are very different, I think. The static weight can be adjusted by adding or removing balance weights attached to the key (in an acoustic piano).

The dynamic mass depends on the mass of the hammer, and the geometry of the action.

I suspect that the designer of a DP's action can adjust either one. But they are not completely independent, and the action's repetition rate will suffer if they are set at extreme values.

Life gets complicated, quickly.

. Charles

PS -- I should do some reading on acoustic-piano actions. I'm sure this is well-plowed territory.

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#2308866 - Yesterday at 08:59 AM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: anotherscott]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: 8 Octaves
My tech proved to me using weights that a Yamaha grand is no heavier or lighter than a Steinway.

But not even all Yamahas or Steinways are the same. The Yamaha G3 I played at a venue felt noticeably lighter than my C6 (and my C6 still feels lighter than a lot of DPs I've played).
Exactly. My G3 is probably the lightest grand I've played, and I've played a C7 that was heavier, but still much lighter than some Steinways I've played. You have to take each piano and see for yourself if it's light or heavy, but most Yamahas I've played are lighter. I'm not talking sound being brighter (which they are that too), I'm talking the force needed to move the hammer at the desired dynamic. I'm not going to underplay just because a piano tends to be brighter, nor overplay because a piano tends to be more mellow.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2309080 - Yesterday at 07:54 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Kawai James]
littlebirdblue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/14
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
This is often the case with acoustic-oriented dealers. However, assuming they stock Kawai's console digital instruments, it may be possible to play-test a model with the same (or similar) keyboard action as the stage instrument in order to understand how it will feel.


They are definitely an acoustic-oriented dealer, so much so that despite having many DPs on the floor, the salesperson kept on telling me to go for a silent acoustic. I didn't get to try out much in that store. He seemed really convinced that children need to be practicing on an acoustic and I'm sure he has his reasons as he was also a piano teacher. In general, I'm willing to buy a DP without testing it but it gets harder as the price goes up.

Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Have your DD test out different actions and see which she prefers.


She's still all about buttons, knobs, and display screen so it'd be awhile before she gets a vote. grin

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#2309083 - Yesterday at 08:03 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: littlebirdblue]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: littlebirdblue


Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Have your DD test out different actions and see which she prefers.


She's still all about buttons, knobs, and display screen so it'd be awhile before she gets a vote. grin


LOL, I understand that! Will she be the one playing on it, or will other family members be using it?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2309123 - Yesterday at 10:39 PM Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: Morodiene]
littlebirdblue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/14
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Will she be the one playing on it, or will other family members be using it?


I am trying to relearn but I have been away from piano for too many years. I grew up on a Kawai studio upright (bought new in 1980) that was very heavy. When I was shopping for a DP, I couldn't really find something locally that screamed "this is the one!" under $2,000 but DD had already started lessons so we "settled" on Casio PX150 plus Pianoteq. The biggest issue I'm having with it is with its pedal.

I wasn't planning on upgrading anytime soon but I'm starting to feel a little restless now that I am starting to be able to play simple easy songs like Arabesque. I know I haven't grown out of it but I would like something that has touch closer to an acoustic.


Edited by littlebirdblue (Yesterday at 10:43 PM)

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#2309190 - 4 minutes 41 seconds ago Re: Digital keyboard actions and price range question. [Re: littlebirdblue]
pwl Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/13
Posts: 186
Loc: Bay Area CA
Originally Posted By: littlebirdblue
The biggest issue I'm having with it is with its pedal.

Just an FYI if you decide to keep the PX-150 - I replaced the pedal with an M-Audio SP-2. Much better, more stable.

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