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I'd sure hope they would after all, if your willing to give anybody that kinda money for something ,you should expect to be able to look at everything and nit-pick it the same as you would a car or a house.
I've asked James (nicely of course) if he'd be willing to lend or sell Jamie the Schimmel for the shop so that I could have the 2 alongside each other to compare more easily. I know that's kind of idealaistic in my favour but seeing as I'm looking at buying one or the other, Jamie wants a Schimmel anyway and everyone's a winner whichever way since James will make money selling it to Jamie, I'll get one of the pianos, and even if I buy the Weinbach, Jamie will have his Schimmel.
I'm still not sure which one to go for, I'm still tossing up the Schimmel (which by the way is the current model 189) aswell as both Weinbach's, the 170 and 192, even though the 170 caught my attention at first, and the 192 didn't impress us like I thought it would, I'm still gonna need to do one more comparison between all three before I make the final decision, the 170 looks promising, don't know if I'd be better with the 192 once it's serviced or voiced like the 170, but I need to try all 3 again to get a fairer comparison because I havn't played each enough to get a good enough feel for what I like, only the 170 impressed at the moment.
Sam The Bam
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Personally, I'd rather steer well clear of a rebuild, for my money I'd rather have either A new piano or a good original condition second-hand one.
Don't get me wrong I'm well aware there can be nothing wrong with a rebuild, especially if it's done properly, but to me anyway, it's kinda just papering over the proper story, it's likely an old instrument that needed to be rebuilt, otherwise why'd it get rebuilt in the first place?
I'd rather buy a piano I know is in original condition, unless I really trusted the work that had been done to it, I'd rather feel good knowing that, ok even if it's abit abused, I can spend the money having it restored myself and that way, atleast you know where it's going, who's doing it and what's being done, call it paranoid, it's not I just prefer to see a piano it's honest new or used condition, if it's used, I'd rather see it's been used and what knick it's in, atleast then ye know and can see it for what it's really like and not just been as you say Joe, a tarted up piece a junk.
It's kinda like a car, a restoration can be brilliant or crap, but you feel much better if you buy a wreck and fix it yourself, than have a restored one without knowing much about it, or a restore that has stuff you'd rather not have.
Like I say don't get me wrong if the Bechstein turns out to be a real gem, then I might consider it, but I've never really liked Bechstein's tone. So, it's probably gonna be the Schimmel, or either of the 2 Weinbach's, don't know whether to go for the 170 or 192, I'd rather the bigger but it's tone didn't blow my socks off first time I played it, whether it'll sound nicer when it's serviced I dunno.
Sam The Bam
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Sam, with all due respect, what you just said with respect to rebuilds does not make any sense.
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Sorry bud I might not have made much sense when I was on about wanting to do it myself fair enough. All I was saying was, I'd rather buy a new piano or a good original piano, a rebuild just doesn't seem the a good way to go to me. I know it can be a very good buy if it's a job well done, but as Joe says you have to know what your looking for, I'm not saying I wouldn't consider buying one if I got offered it, it's just that unless I knew what had been done and had trust in the folk that did it, I'd rather spend my dosh on a new piano or a piano that is used, but is playable, might need some work, but then you can get a good handle on what needs done from a technician and then have it done, knowing that there's unlikely gonna be anything dodgy going on as Joe pointed out with some shops, and if something wrong did happen, well that's the risk you take, atleast if it's in original knick you know when you buy it that it hasn't been fiddled with ,bit done here bit done there as Joe says that can happen.
I'm not saying I won't look at rebuilds, I'm just cautious of them if I'm spending that kinda money, I'd like something that was either new or if it were a rebuild, I'd be asking who owned it before, what needed done, why was it done them sorts a things. A rebuild can be better than the original instrument, but at the price I'm looking to spend, as you said yourself, it's unlikely to be a full resoration, but a part-restoration, I don't want something that's half finished, I want something that's fully fledged and can serve me for years, I'd rather not have to do stuff to it down the road, which if it's only a part-rebuild, you might have to, and anyway, I'm spending £12,000 or so I want a complete instrument, isn't that a good thing?
Last edited by Sam4; 07/27/14 04:35 PM.
Sam The Bam
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Sam - if I may say, your main problem is your lack of experience as both a pianist and as a piano buyer. You are coming from a terrible piano that is clapped out, to new grand pianos, rebuilt pianos and all these variations in between.
My thought is that you're going to end up on an expensive mistake, and if I were you I'd broaden my horizons, embrace all that I don't know about rebuilds, Chinese pianos, upright pianos, and equip yourself with as much information about all these things as possible. Don't just go to one shop, go and see others. Try Alan makin in Edinburgh, Peter Smith in Glasgow, go and see dome second hand pianos. When I bought the brodmann I spent about 18 months looking. When I upgraded to the Bluthner I spent about a year but I had more knowledge and was able to talk to some of the best technicians available.
I didn't talk much to other pianists except for those I knew to be experienced in the technical side of the piano. I can tell at first, second, third, tenth play if I like a piano, but I can't tell if the piano will be right in the long term.
By the way, rebuilding is not papering over cracks - it is rebuilding - with new parts, New soundboards, new tuning planks - the lot.
Perhaps some 'reconditioned' pianos are time bombs but that's a different thing
YAMAHA Artist
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Couldn't agree more. Even though I really LOVE the Schimmel K189 and would buy it when I had the space, money and permission from my wife without any hesitation, I doubt it is the piano for you. Same with the Weinbachs (those are really a step down from the Schimmel, do you realize that?). It sounds like you haven't seen enough pianos to encounter THAT one piano. (Which is in most cases relatively easy to find). I would always prefer a good rebuild (which is verifiable) over a original condition, simply because it logically should have more life in it.. Beware though of Reconditioned or Refurbished or Refinished...
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Sam - if I may say, your main problem is your lack of experience as both a pianist and as a piano buyer. You are coming from a terrible piano that is clapped out, to new grand pianos, rebuilt pianos and all these variations in between.
My thought is that you're going to end up on an expensive mistake, and if I were you I'd broaden my horizons, embrace all that I don't know about rebuilds, Chinese pianos, upright pianos, and equip yourself with as much information about all these things as possible. Don't just go to one shop, go and see others. Try Alan makin in Edinburgh, Peter Smith in Glasgow, go and see dome second hand pianos. When I bought the brodmann I spent about 18 months looking. When I upgraded to the Bluthner I spent about a year but I had more knowledge and was able to talk to some of the best technicians available.
I didn't talk much to other pianists except for those I knew to be experienced in the technical side of the piano. I can tell at first, second, third, tenth play if I like a piano, but I can't tell if the piano will be right in the long term.
By the way, rebuilding is not papering over cracks - it is rebuilding - with new parts, New soundboards, new tuning planks - the lot.
Perhaps some 'reconditioned' pianos are time bombs but that's a different thing Hi Joe I wouldn't say my littlePaul newman was totally "clapped out", abit older and maybe a little tired with some work needing to be done but Jamie looked at it and said it was in good knick, and it had been regularly serviced in it's previous home. It does still have quite a good bit of tone now it's settled in even though it most likely isn't what it used to be. I also wouldn't say I lack skill as a pianist, I've been playing for nearly 20 years, what you call experience as a pianist and what I cal experience could be quite different, I don't play classical or maybe have the most subtle technique but who gives a toss? I play what I play and the most important thing is, I get a piano that sound and feels right for the stuff I do. OK, i'm sure that's not what you were really getting at, I got abit apprehensive there as you do when somebody says you lack experience, you go who are they to say, but yes your right in that I do lack any know-how in buying a new or rebuilt piano. I will be trying more, but whatever the case, I'm going through Jamie because he's agreed to do me the kind of deal as well as giving me the money back for my baby grand, whether that's a good idea isn't up for discussion, my folks are helping me pay for this, and that's the way it's gonna be if I'm to get anything. I have come from a background of older, perhaps clapped out by most folks standards pianos, although I can get along with pretty much any piano as long as it has atleast some tone in it, and I can get used to it and get a sound I like out of it, as you say Joe, I'll know when ther right one comes along, I have played pianos before which I knew I liked, heck funny story here, I nearly asked my university if I could have the Fazer upright, maybe not a very high quality piano, but I loved it's sound, so that's what was important. You are right I'll have to get more clued-up on what goes into different pianos, but look, what's important really is, I try as many as I can, and when the right sounding one comes by, I'll get it, but Jamie has to be able to get it for me, that could be an issue, the Weinbach 170 as I said before caught me, as did the Schimmel, and I could over the years, get used to any flaws there are, as I also mentioned ,I 'll always moan about something with Any piano, and these 2 have most things right for me. Given I've come from the background I have with older, out of tune pianos, and still managed to get lessons, and teach myself and had fun playing on them, anything newer or rebuilt is likely gonna be better than what I have now, so I can't really make an expensive mistake can I? I'll buy the best one that I like the sound of that's available nearest to me, I've looked around enough and all this searching is startin to do ma box in, I now just want something I can play on to get rid of my Paul Newman, that might be a fool-hardy attitude you might say, but I reckon the right one won't be too far away.
Sam The Bam
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Sam I stand by what I said - it wasn't meant to insult you in any way, but to help. If you have limitations in your technique it can be very difficult to understand, by playing, what makes a good piano.
At the end of the day, buy the piano you like best. I know some amateur pianists who are quite good and that have played for a long time who come and play my piano and think it is terrible because of the soft voicing. But it is actually their inability to produce a singing tone that is a problem, and once they get into the piano a bit they love it.
My view of what makes a good pianist is different from yours because I'm working at a high level all the time, dealing with miniscule touch variations and pedalling that depends on a millimeter to make a difference in the level of sustain I want. I want an action that allows me to play different notes in a chord at different volumes, or legato and staccato in the same hand, and do all sorts of trills, leaps, double octaves, thirds, sixths, etc and above all, produce a singing tone, and a fortissimo that is full but doesn't shatter glass. If a piano does all that, I don't really care if it lacks this or that, or even if it's brighter or mellower. I only care about the response of the instrument
YAMAHA Artist
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That's alight Joe, I wasn't really offended, obviously you and me are different in what we want out of a piano, and as you need the responsiveness and careful control of the piano, that sorta thing would bother you, but to me with the sorta music I pplay, it doesn't, and I'm not looking to learn that kinda stuff for awhile yet, so as you rightly said, I have to find the piano that sounds beat for what I play just now, and if down the road I decide I need something more refined or control-able, then I'll upgrade or change as and when I have to. I appreciate you don't want me making an expensive mistake, but like you say, you get a good feeling when the piano with the tone you love comes along, and it looks as if I'll just have to sit down with the Weinbach's and the Schimmel, and perhaps a few others, and get to know them better, and maybe ask Jamie and James for their advice aswell, I could also start alking with other technician't but really, it comes down to your own taste and preference doesn't it? Help from people in the know is always a good thing, but when all's over and done with, what's important is I (me) like the sound of it, it has to be able to handle rough loud playing when I do ragtime, but also soft enough to do ballad's and stuff, like you say, that could just be improving my style of playing, but I don't reckon I'm goin far wrong with the Weinbach here, that got me in most areas, well not far wrong for the £10,500 that Jamie wants for it, and even at that I could probably get him lower than that, paying it up with no deposit, a good return on my baby grand aswell, I mean he's not givin me a bad deal here Joe, yes the piano has to be mostly right for me, but as I said above, you get used to a piano's tone eventually, and as I'm basically well, hiring it so to speak, if I decide I don't like it, we can always try something else, I did say to him about the Schimmel, and he is tryin to get it so's I've got the 2 to compare alongside each other, but he is atleast trying his best to get me what I'm looking for, and I'm sure that soon enough, I'll find the right one. Given the experience I've had over the years with the piano's I've had, if I can get a decent tune out of them and be happy aswell, then I'm sure whatever I decide on will suffice perfectly well for me until I have the skill and desire to have something better. However I'm glad your putting some sense my way and helping us abit here, by the way here's my latest fiasco, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdqS4Ytz7XM
Sam The Bam
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Please excuse the French but ,Swine, this is more like what I'd want outa the Weinbach IF I went for it, one US store has a polished walnut one, can't seem to find anything like that here in Scotland except Edinburgh Piano Co's rosewood one which I didn't like so much. The Shops in Boston though Lol! I may just for a laugh contact them and say I'm interested and see what they say, jings can you believe what that'd cost to ship over here, looks like I'm gonna need to keep looking for the finish I want, I don't care if it's not important, I'm paying for it, so I'll get the look I want. Here it is http://rogers-piano.com/pianos/weinbach/
Last edited by Sam4; 07/29/14 05:30 PM.
Sam The Bam
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Hi Joe, I can't agree any more with you. But...if you came up with two instruments, both of which reached your technic desire (e.g. a Schimmel Konzert and a Sauter), wouldn't the characteristics still be of little importance for your choice?
Last edited by aesop; 07/29/14 11:51 PM.
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Aesop - you're right, but probably less so. I mean, if I didn't like the sound I would probably think it was because it wad unresponsive - usually if a piano is too bright and therefore everything sounds quite monochromatic. I'd rather have too mellow because I know heat happens to pianos with age!
Other things would be is the sound full and rich, or is the sound clear cut and precise? Is it a balance of both? I want a piano that sounds as good for Brahms as it does Bach, one that allows me to play Debussy as well as Rachmaninoff. These finer details are sometimes more down to points of regulation and voicing than they are the actual piano - although if the instrument is sub standard to start with, it's going to be difficult to make it satisfactory.
A mediocre piano can be made good with regulation and voicing but it's never going to give you everything.
Personally, I'd go for a brand new tier one over anything - I prefer German pianos, that's personal though, although I love love love Fazioli - sono I pianoforti bellisimi! The CF Yamaha is good but not my favourite - although I appreciate it is of the highest quality
Second or equal first would be a rebuilt German piano - bechstein, Bluthner, grotrian, Steinway, or even ronisch, scheidmeyer, irmler or ibach. Or perhaps even hagspeil or ehrbar or rich. Lipp. There servant wonderful pianos coming out if Germany in the early 20 th c, that make excellent candidates for full rebuilds. Equally there was a lot of trash lol
Third I would pick Yamaha S and shigeru, fourth Yamaha C series and kawai rx.
I know schimmel is an excellent piano but the sound has never moved me.
Finally, for my purposes, having played many Brodmann, Wendl und Lung and Feurich - they're decent enough and functional but they just don't have what I need, and they don't actually feel solid enough even with feurichs developments with the reinforced keyboard. Just my two cents on what I'm looking for in a piano.
YAMAHA Artist
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Given the experience I've had over the years with the piano's I've had, if I can get a decent tune out of them and be happy aswell, then I'm sure whatever I decide on will suffice perfectly well for me until I have the skill and desire to have something better.
I think when you buy an instrument such as the Schimmel you won't be looking for something better but you might look for something different. In these categories it's more about taste then about quality. For what it is worth, I don't think you are going to get a piano of equal quality for GBP 18000 anytime soon. (Unless you're buying a rebuild, the price on the Bechstein is incredible).
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Oh and by the way, when you are still going for a new Weinbach, why don't you just order one in the desired finish?
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Wimpiano, I think it's because these pianos are old stock and therefore offered at a lower price than a similar New instrument.
I agree, it's probably quite difficult to get higher quality than schimmel - without going for a fazioli - but that one might want a different sounding piano. Schimmel use very high quality parts and Labour
YAMAHA Artist
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Joe, Thx, you're very warm hearted~ ^_^ I learn a lot from your post. Actually, our tastes are quite alike, although I'm not professional and maybe cannot express what I feel enough clearly sometimes...and here's my story. During my piano searching, it was easy at first to exclude other choices in my budget...until finally I came up with a Schimmel Konzert and a Sauter...similar price for them at dealers in my country. A time that I was really puzzled...I knowed the difference between them, but both were charming. When I tried one of them, I thought this was my piano. But when I played the other one to say a goodbye, there seemed to be greater persuasions to me: just take it! Hahaha... So I went back home, for a long time didn't make my decision, and just put it aside. It was surprising that day by day, the sound of Sauter became closer to me, but the sound of Schimmel just stayed there. Now I've got the Sauter. The sound of it is full, rich, and also clear. Sweet, but can be powerful as long as you need. It can speak in a very light way, or equally deep, depending on the touch. Perhaps there is something more than I can express with words...I think this piano is capable for all kinds of classical and modern pieces. Now what I have to do is just improving my technic, and understanding, to make my music ideal...Sauter is not only my piano, but also my partner, my friend. But I still consider Schimmel very lovely, and will always be very glad to play on them when there is a chance...like a date
Last edited by aesop; 07/30/14 10:12 PM.
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The problem winpiano with that route is, it'd be way too expensive and out of my budget to buy a new one, when in many cases, the 2 weinbach's on offer here, whilst they are old stock and thus might need some attention, are basically new for like half the price.
OK you folk who are more clued can probably spot the difference between a brand new but I can't, and don't really care much. If I was gonna spend that sorta money, I'd be just aswell looking at the higher-quality Petrof or whatever else, in my affordable price range, and by the way I don't actually have that in notes, I'm paying this up through Jamie McLaren in his shop, the Weinbach's or the Schimmel look to be the best bet's in terms of tone, and reliability down the road, y'see you have to remember that I'm probably not gonna be changing this for quite awhile, I'll be paying it for quite abit, I'm never gonna have that sorta money anyway, and the deal me and Jamie have come to is I reckon quite an agreeable one.
Now as Joe mentioned, when you add that into the mix, things start to look very different in terms of what your options are, of all the pianos I've tried these 3 seem to be the nicest to me, yes I'll be trying out more, but the thing is, I HAVE to be able to pay it up, through Jamie thus he has to be able to get it, otherwise it's a no-go unless I want to save up for the next 20 odd years for a new one, which let me tell you is how many it would take me with my employment.
Ordering a new one might still be possible, but I would need to put a deposit down on it, and really, I don't see much point in that, given the one's he has in the shop seem to be just fine to me. Don't get me wrong if I try more pianos, Yamaha, the restored Bechstein I was talking about earlier, and maybe some others, and we find one I like, sure I'll go for it, or if indeed a new one is feasible, then I'd do that too if I could get the finish I wanted, but I doubt that'd be sensible given my financial situation and what my options are just now.
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Well uys I went back round to Jamie's shop today to try out the Weinbach once again, and joe I'm glad you mentioned trying different pianos and playing each for abit, you do start to get a grip of things you do and don't like and you notice stuff that might bother you over the course of having it.
Take the Weinbach 170, having played it again, I now notice the touch is way too heavy and the treble dings like a bell, sounds as if there's somebody playin a triangle on top of ach note, and it rings too long for me, Jamie says he's still to voice it down and given it's brand new and hasn't been played really, it needs time to settle in, so I might still keep it on my list for now just in case I'm judging it unfairly, it's kind of a shame really because I'm still blown over by it's powerful deep bass, but that sound above middle c would really get on my box after awhile if it didn't settle down or we'll have to see once Jamie voices it for us.
I've asked him to keep an eye out for other Weinbach's, any Petrof's and any Schimmel's he may come across and et me know if he get's any in, I did play the Yamaha's, Bluthner's he had, they all had there ups and downs but long story short, none of them as you say got me completely.
I'm still asking James Cameron if he can lend Jamie the Schimmel Konzert, as that looks very promising, I may go over again to sample it and the bigger Weinbach, as I don't think the first time really gave me enough of a chance to really get to know the pianos, it never does. However I can now see what you sll mean by trying them out a fw times, only when you go back again do you start really looking at things properly, and look at what you'd be like with the instrument over the years. It's gonna be a real stretch to get at the Schimmel, but if I can settle a good deal with James, then I'll really consider it, Jamie offered the Weinbach 170 for £10,000, so I reckon the Schimmel could come down to about £16,000 or so, if it's used that could work if he's really wanting a sale.
So until I hear anything from the 2 fellas, I'm still on the lookout.
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Sam, I fear you are boxing yourself into a corner by sticking so firmly to one dealer. How do you actually know that you can't get a similar deal elsewhere? You've already got a taste for how difficult this decision can be. It's hard to find "the one" - so logic dictates that you have to cast a wide net to find that one. Your ideal piano might be just sitting in another store waiting for you to walk through the door - but you'll never know if you never consider other dealers. Give it some thought. I doubt you are getting an unrepeatable deal with your current dealer. You aren't married to your dealer - get out and see other people!
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No I fully understand where your coming from Ando, I have actually visited other dealerships, and found some that I really like, to that I've asked them if they may lend the one I am considering, which is the Schimmel in the title of this post, to my dealer, they are in actual the same company, but the Edinburgh showroom and warehouse is much larger and has far more to look at and a much bigger range, then agin Jamie is always renewing his stock and his shop is comparitivly teensy by comparison, hence I am looking at other dealse, I appreciate that I could very well get a similar deal elsewhere, yes I'm not married to the dealer, but a lot of other dealers will want you to pass a credit check with something like this, mine does not and I have had a lot of work done from him, aswell as many favors before, I know that's not that important, but there's something to be said for trusting somebody.
I have told him the sorts of things I'm looking for, and he buys and looks out for those pianos all the time. So as I'm going round the dealers looking at other stuff, I still have Jamie on the hunt for the brand and models of piano's I have either heard or played at someone else's shop, bad scenario he could buy the piano off another dealer should that dealer not be willing to give me the sorta finance deal I need, nothing wrong with doing that, as I say I'm not boxing myself in, when as you say I find the one that's right, I'll know and can then decide what to do, but the Schimmel is the good contendr. I don't have the capability to go round every store in Britain, just the one's that are local to me, and that's what I'm doing, I'm sure something will come along, as I say Jamie is always getting new stuff, used Steinway's an all, so I'm confident the right one will turn up.
Sam The Bam
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