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I can usually even much of that out with NSL tension. What is your process for doing so on a pre existing stringing?
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NSL is considered by some as the mean to tune the front duplexes,
When you are in fine high partials listening mode, you can hear that NSL influences the coupling.
Some imagination must be necessary sometime to begin to hear the tone rainbow of all high partials coming in line one then the other (rarely all together in most pianos)
As when wanting to listen to beats only at a certain level, the ear may need to be "driven" to the wanted level. plucking the adequate strings in the spectra helps to "discover" that they are here in the tuned one (3-5-5-6, the "bad" 7th partial, etc)
Probably plucking the string itself on different locations is as efficient.
In top treble, the second partial can be detected . I believe it is mostly because I am trained to detect the energy raise created by coupling, more than by my listening ability in regard of high pitches.
There , plucking the treble string make you notice the partial.
Last edited by Olek; 07/30/14 07:02 AM.
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A443, the stress reserve in NSL is part of the string clamping.
As I wrote it is something difficult to ascertain and depend of the instrument.
But I witness that any installed extra springiness you will find at every new tuning, if done correctly.
Yes some notes tend to raise whatever precise you are, they do if the piano is played too strong, but if they where not the wire would have slip or lowered a bit.
That is an "active suspension" with a little extra for security, but you know that.
Just think of what happens with a strong blow, the tension is raised way more than usually in the string, and a strong wave arise to the capo or agrafe, being able to pass the tension wave a little below the rendering point.
That is when the extra tension is supposed to equate the one coming and dissipates it better (or reflects it)
I think that low tension in NSL/Pin may add some "noise" in the tone. (which can be appreciated, why not ?)
Yamahas tend to be tuned a little "floating" that sound natural to the type of rendering and pinblock/pin couple, but I promise Osato tuning make the pins so firm they cannot be moved any direction , of course not down, but even up it have to be "dismounted" if the pin need to turn .
Last edited by Olek; 07/30/14 07:12 AM.
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I spent a lot of time researching unison styles in the US, Japan, and in Europe at the turn of the century. The first thing to understand is that everyone I spoke with, and measured tunings for, all thought they were tuning DOAs--at least, that was how they explained their ultimate tuning goal. However, their process, all produced slightly different results/qualities in the unison. I first denoted the terminology in terms of American, Japanese, and Viennese, based on where I had noticed the phenomenon; later I updated the terminology to (DOA)/attack, sustain, and colour, to reflect the unison function. The Viennese/Colour unison is a very old one mute pattern and manner of tuning a piano. It goes way back, and can even be seen in the design of very old Viennese pianos (e.g., unions with different string lengths). I don't have any specific dates, but the process certainly predates 1850. I hesitate using the term Viennese for this kind of "colour" unison, because if you chat with a Viennese tuner, they don't really think about the process in the same way--the end result, however, is the same. In a unions discussion, many american tuner will have a hard time relating. Pianos in the USA--because it is common to aggressively bang on and level the strings--pianos in the USA comparatively have so many more false-beats/falseness in the tone. NOTE: pianos with false beats can not be tuned in different unison styles because the strings are all over the place: it doesn't work; tuners in the USA must concern themselves instead with taming the wildness!!! Long story short: if they stop brutally banging on the wires, they can start learning to tune different kind of unisons! Attack (DOA) UnisonA crips clear tone, with a sharp/immediate tactile sensation of when the tone begins. The attack is louder, but the overall sound has less "body" and feels kind of "dead," hence the clinically dead reference of first responders (DOA: dead on arrival). All strings are literally dead-on-zero when looking at an ETD. If the tuner uses this unison, hammer fitting is even more important. NSL (non-speaking-length) and pin tension is neutral. Sustain UnisonOne string is set slightly sharp/[flat] (i.e, the L string is best, because when it is removed from the equation with the shift pedal, the tone straightens out more), and the other two strings will be dead-on-zero. The amount of offset will vary based on the piano and the register: usually it is c. 0.1 cent in the capo and 0.2 in the middle/tenor. The idea is to slightly move the tone forward and shift some of the energy from the attack, to the decay portion of the tonal envelope. The NSL/pin tension is increased in the one altered string, and the other two are neutral. This approach is very helpful in the melodic section to help the melodic lines "sing" forward (i.e., it is excellent for helping with phrasing). Colour UnisonThe middled string is set dead on zero (with neutral NSL/pin tension), the left string is set slightly flat (with negative NSL/pin tension), and the right string is set slightly sharp (with positive NSL/pin tension). On a good piano the descant can usually tolerate 0.1 cent, the melodic section 0.2 cents, the middle section 0.3 cents, and the tenor section 0.4 cents, in both directions. The bichords in the bass can sometimes tolerate 0.2-0.3 cents on either side of the intended target, if the NSL/pin tension is used to tame the wildness. This unison type, as the name implies, is very colourful and warm. It also allows for the octaves, and other tuning intervals to sound more "in-tune." The attack feels later as compared to a DOA, but it is far richer in presence. The tone is has more depth and is more resonant (i.e., because more notes line-up in the registers). I've grouped them into three categories based on intent, but there are many other combinations that can blur the boundaries between categories, for example: DOAs with positive NSL/pin tensions.  Thanks for that detailed information. Can you specify what you mean with "tenor section" "melodic section" etc, in terms of note ranges? I am curious if this can be simulated. I ran a simulation of C4, with a DOA, a sustain 0.2cent and a colour with -0.3 0 +0.3 cent. I extracted the partial frequencies, damping rate, and amplitudes from prout's piano. Simulation results are below. Are they accurate enough to illustrate the effects? Actual single string recording Simulated DOA Sustain: 0.2 cent Coloured +/- 0.3 cent Incidentally, the difference between recorded and DOA is the difference between a tone with only partials, and a real tone which is partials + other complicated stuff. Kees
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I don't believe ETDs can measure to the accuracy some of you are claiming. They only measure the frequency of one partial and no two strings have the exact same inharmonicity.
I have experienced the effect of clean versus coloured unisons, but the claims of the affect of NSL tension on tone are lost on me, as I imagine to many others. Just getting a string to be stable is enough of a challenge for most of us mortal tuners.
Best regards,
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Thanks for posting those recordings Kees.
I could not hear any difference between the DOA and the sustain unison. The coloured unison was just out of tune IMHO with a clear beat.
In an actual piano, phase matching must also be a consideration.
For example, a DOA can have more power, or seem to be "sucked" into the piano, depending on the phase matching. That's my experience.
A swelling sustain unison has a slow growing power that seems to sing out from the piano like a rolling thunder, building slowly then dying away. It seems to be like all the partials are getting together and having a heated discussion.
Colour unisons, IMHO, deal more with a degree of out of tuneness that may be desired for different styles of music.
Those are just my opinions. I do not try for any specific unison except to avoid the "sucked in" DOA, and no one has ever asked for a certain unison type, or commented on how my unisons were any better than someone else's. I don't do a lot of concert tunings.
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Thanks, DoelKees, for the recordings: they are very interesting! They don't accurately depict what is happening in the piano, but it is interesting. How are the tones simulated?
All three recordings had an upper partial beat. Based on the timestamp at the bottom of the each recording, this lasted c.3 seconds with the DOA, c.2 seconds with the sustain unison, and c.1 second with the colour unison. This relation exists in the piano, but not as clear as the recordings--and it changes colour more.
The sound of the initial attack in the simulations do not soften as much as they do in the piano. There is a slightly softer presentation with the simulated colour unison, compared with the simulated DOA/Sustain, but only slightly.
The swell-back that happens in the simulated sustain unison (i.e., in comparison to the simulated DOA), is more apparent in the piano, and is usually accompanied by a colour change/shift (i.e., more focused, perhaps a bit more on the 'luminescent' side).
The simulated colour unison, in terms of the wavering and tonal shift, is far away from what ideally happens in the piano. It can sound like that, if there is a lot of uncontrolled falseness in the three strings (i.e., different amounts, direction, and timings of frequency drift)--but this would happen in a DOA too. Otherwise, with good [new] strings installed correctly, the L-/R+ amounts balance each other out to produce a warm, flexible, demential tone quality, with a softer attack and longer overall tonal body.
I completely tore my kitchen piano apart to do some much needed detail work to the action and damper setup. I'll try and throw it together and make a note work to demonstrate the differences that I am talking about. These strings are 14 years old, so it won't be a perfect example, but it should be close enough to hear the differences.
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I don't believe ETDs can measure to the accuracy some of you are claiming. They only measure the frequency of one partial and no two strings have the exact same inharmonicity. The Verituner works with monitoring more partials. When reading the display properly, it is very easy to see and also learn to hear; it is a great pedagogical tuning tool. I have experienced the effect of clean versus coloured unisons, but the claims of the affect of NSL tension on tone are lost on me, as I imagine to many others. NSL tension has in influence on frequency drift during the duration of the tone. I'll try to find a second camera so that I can demonstrate that movement. It is all very straight forward--or sometimes upwards drifting, if there is not so much falseness interfering with the control.
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Prout suggested Vallotti's 1799 temperament for Schubert. I looked up the tuning sequence, and it's similar to tuning mean tone. I'll give it a try on the Seiler and see what it sounds like.
Seiler 206, Chickering 145, Estey 2 manual reed organ, Fudge clavichord, Zuckerman single harpsichord, Technics P-30, Roland RD-100.
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Prout suggested Vallotti's 1799 temperament for Schubert. I looked up the tuning sequence, and it's similar to tuning mean tone. I'll give it a try on the Seiler and see what it sounds like. Valotti is much more forgiving than even 1/5 comma meantone.
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Thanks, DoelKees, for the recordings: they are very interesting! They don't accurately depict what is happening in the piano, but it is interesting. How are the tones simulated? Thanks for that evaluation. It seems to suggest that theoretical models based just on partials are not sophisticated enough to capture the quality of unisons, except perhaps for clearly out-of-tune ones. The simulation was done as follows. From a recording of a C4 single string I measured the frequencies, decay rates, and amplitudes of the first 10 partials (30 parameters all together). To resynthsize a single string I then simply add 10 decaying sine waves with the appropriate frequencies, dampings, and amplitudes. Repeat twice for the other two strings with modified frequencies according to your suggestions and add the waveforms. The hammer strike is not simulated in any way, so at best it only simulates the sound after the strike, after the attack transients. Here's an attempt to improve, by simply mixing 3 single string recordings with small pitch shifts (resamplings). (I mean record 1 string, then shift pitch and mix.) Is this more realistic? Sustain 0.2 cent Colour +/- 0.3 cent Kees
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These sound more realistic now.
The "sustain" sustains more than the "colour" in the initial seconds.
The "colour" seems to dampen quicker in the initial seconds.
The "colour" has a slow beat that is more obvious in the later seconds of the decay. It is not objectionable, but I would not consider it the best unison and it does nothing for me in terms of adding colour or musical interest. Perhaps in a larger musical context things would be different.
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Colour Unisons within the context of a CM chord (equal temperament)--first without pedal, chord, then with pedal. The resonance at the end of the clip comes from the extra bass notes controlled by the pedal. Please listen in 1080p for the best audio resolution.
[video:youtube]aK92rt3tosg[/video]
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DoelKees, the new ones do sound more realistic, but the evolution of the tone has an artificial quality to it.
In the piano, each of the three string pitches drift in different directions over time (i.e., this is something that I am watching for and trying to balance). If you can add that into the equation, you probably would be much closer to the real thing. That interaction should create the tonal shifts that I am used to dealing with.
The other missing aspect, however, is the influence of the NSLs on the swell-back. This primarily seems to be a matter of volume, but it also affects the pitch drift--when the strings are straight enough to be controlled/influenced.
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That's good to hear. I may try Vallotti 1781 on the harpsichord first since it's a lot easier to tune than the piano.
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Nice video A443. O.T. It's a pity partials do not exist, I could swear I hear them when the pedal is depressed! 
Last edited by Gadzar; 07/31/14 09:09 PM.
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I really don't like the attack envelope of the 'colour unisons". Too much distortion. Especially when the pedal is down and the distortion is echoing through the instrument. How can you voice an instrument tuned like this?
I tend toward your referenced 'sustain unisons' as do most of the techs I know. Please don't misunderstand or misrepresent piano techs working in the US. We are an extremely varied bunch who can not be labeled as simply string pounders and string levelers. If there is one quality that may define the goals of US piano technology it is its penchants towards a 'bell like' sound that rings out. The Mason & Hamlin "BB", vintage Baldwins, and even New York Steinways are excellent examples of this Bell sound.
Enjoy
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Nice video A443. O.T. It's a pity partials do not exist, I could swear I hear them when the pedal is depressed! It must be the little fairy playing on the little sine wave generator on the inside. 
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This is somewhat realistic indeed.
the sound miss it's "3d" dimension but the enveloppe recall the one of the different unison.
Does the frequency shift reproduce the phase "Weinreich" effect? Possibly as based on real samples but I wonder if some of that is retained due to stereo.
Nice experience.
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Colour Unisons within the context of a CM chord (equal temperament)--first without pedal, chord, then with pedal. The resonance at the end of the clip comes from the extra bass notes controlled by the pedal. Please listen in 1080p for the best audio resolution.
[video:youtube]aK92rt3tosg[/video] THanks, It must be due to the recording (?) but there is too much attack still for the Viennese type, in my ear. STrange that I was a little not at ease with the last C, that is just due to an enlarged octave , I tested on a vertical I have at hand just now and find a similar type of octave, (even larger) that is surprising it sound as if the last C is too high in arpegio, while when played in chords it is more in phases with the rest. Usually the enlarging sound more normal in broken chords or arpeggios) WHat did you use to record ? I think the tone could be thickened from scratch. I heartd some light moaning on my first listening, probably due to the sampling rate, and that recalled me of Michel Legrand asking me specifically to make a very pure tone without any added motion. In my experience, moaning (in partials) appears when the tuner focus too much on foundamental, thicken it, make it round and strong). DOes not seem to be the case there. please send a similar record with separated notes, not buildinga M chord (which is not the best chord particularily in ET) Thanks
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