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#2310381 - 08/02/14 09:18 PM Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see!
ShiroKuro Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
In the sight-reading thread, when Bach Chorales came up, many of us mentioned that the scores for the Chorales are so small that they are awful for sightreading practice. Well, I couldn't believe that there wasn't a better edition available, so I looked again and found this:

Bach 413 Chorales

Apparently it was just published in January or February of this year. And guess what, each chorale gets its own page! (I know, what a concept!)

Anyway, I ordered it and it just came the other day. Already the chorales are 100 times easier to play! I had a different edition of the Chorales from the library, and had decided that if I couldn't find a better edition I was going to give up on having Chorales be part of my sightreading routine. Well I can't say how glad I am to have found this book! It's not cheap and it's a little on the thick side, but the ring binding makes it very manageable. I can't recommend it enough!!

(And no, I'm not connected with the author! laugh
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#2310386 - 08/02/14 09:33 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
earlofmar Online   content
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Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1731
Loc: Australia
I don't like to buy a music book if the score is too dense, perhaps due to my poor eyesight or inexperience. So this looks to be a winner, not available yet on my usual ordering sites but I will keep it in mind.
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#2310392 - 08/02/14 09:44 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
ShiroKuro Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Yeah, I had missed it because it wasn't (maybe still isn't) listed on SheetMusicPlus.com. Maybe it will make its way to you, unfortunately it's a big heavy book, so probably not cheap to ship overseas by an individual, but maybe a music store or site will pick up on it.
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#2310416 - 08/02/14 10:40 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
Dave B Offline
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Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
Thanks for sharing this. I was just yesterday trying to find my copy of the Chorales. He also offers an "Analyzed" edition. For more info:

http://bachchoraleharmony.com/

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#2310578 - 08/03/14 10:45 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
ShiroKuro Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Dave, thanks for posting that link! That was another reason I decided to purchase the book, because it's part of this larger work. The words "jazz chords" also totally caught my eye, and the analyzed edition is something I'm keeping in mind for the future.

Just to keep this thread full of links, here's the analyzed book at Amazon:

Bach 413 Chorales Analyzed
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
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#2312255 - 08/07/14 06:03 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
barbaram Offline

Full Member

Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 185
Hmm, $35 for the book and another $17 for shipping to Europe is a lot of dough. But I'm tempted all the same

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#2312310 - 08/07/14 08:22 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
David Farley Offline
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Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 443
Loc: Illinois
Thanks for posting this. Is there any reason not to get the analyzed book instead of this edition with just the chorales? From the descriptions it sounds like both are equally playable, although the book with the analysis costs a little more.

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#2312356 - 08/07/14 09:47 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 730
Loc: Leicester, UK
The upside is that chords are written in. The downside is they're questionable and possibly misleading in many instances - judging from a sample I saw on the web.

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#2312401 - 08/07/14 11:46 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
Mark, Can you point out where they chords are questionable and possibly misleading. I just took a close look at the samples and didn't find errors or anything confusing.

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#2312502 - 08/07/14 03:36 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
ShiroKuro Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Barbaram, that is definitely not cheap. The question is how much you'll actually use it. Because if you'll use it for year and play through all the 400+ chorales, then of course, the price is just fine. I have to say, I love it and the fact that it's so easy to read really makes it much easier to focus on the music and on playing it, rather than squinting and whiny about how tiny the notes are! laugh

David, I chose the one without anything written in because 1) I am not focusing on chord-analysis and the moment, and 2) if I was, I'd want to be writing them in myself.

Mark, I read a review similar to your comment, can you talk more about it? I am not able to critique the analysis myself, but one thing I know about analysis from my own (non-music related) work is that analysis is just that -- analysis, and it's open to interpretation.

Also, the (analyzed) book's page on Amazon includes this comment:

Quote:
The modern musician will benefit greatly from this book as the chords that Bach used are all notated in jazz type chord symbolism that is provided above the staff for ease of comprehension here.


Could it be that your critique or conclusion that the analysis is questionable and possibly misleading comes from viewing the analysis from a different (e.g. non-jazz?) perspective?

I'm not trying to be confrontational in anyway, I mean the above as a sincere question. Although, I do have to admit that I tend to assume that a work like this has been "vetted" -- IOW, I sort of assume the analysis can't be that far off or why would it have gotten published. But that's probably naive of me! laugh

Actually, wait, I just realized I might be misinterpreting (or overinterpreting) the expression "jazz-type chord symbols" -- by that does the author just mean writing F#m7 and that sort of thing?
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#2312701 - 08/07/14 11:24 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 730
Loc: Leicester, UK
Shirokuro and Dave, you've both asked good questions - and Shirokuro, clearly you're not being confrontational! I hear you totally about analysis having to do writhe the view of the analyst. So in terms of my tone, I'll point out problems I see but don't read what I say as simply 'it's good or it's bad.' There's a little of both in the book.

First, it's not a vetted book. - 'peer reviewed' is the professional term. The book's self-published. Clearly it's a labor of love for the author. But just because it's self-published w/out peer review doesn't mean it's not a good book....

Take a look at the 4th beat of the 1st measure. Because a Bb ends up in the chord it's functioning as a V7/IV ... C7 to Fmaj. But here's where a problem comes out ... which is the D and Bb on the and of the 4th beat are passing tones. And really nothing more than that. So trying to name that chord as Gm as the author does is against the grain of common practice theory.

Where it gets sticky is YES look at the chord on the and of the 4th beat and YES the Gm the author labels is there. But get a recording of the chorale or just play it at tempo and no that chord isn't there. Because the passing tones go by too quickly to actually state a chord. To give an analogy of sorts the word 'harmony' contains 'harm.' But there is no 'harm' in 'harmony.'

The thing is with the Bach Chorales for long term gain and learning they're probably best understood in terms of the voice leading techniques Bach used to write them. That's the traditional way of studying them. Those techniques include knowledge of what we now call functional harmony. And they include knowledge of the various kinds of dissonances used in Bach's style. So that would be suspensions, passing tones, neighbor tones, etc.

In terms of analysis and interpretation could just that one little example be explained differently? Well, to the answer is yes of course it could. But in saying that it doesn't mean the explanations we all come up with are all equally good (or equally bad!) ... It's more the case that some explanations will build a better more consistent framework than others. So a 'good' theory teacher in a 'good' theory class would probably admit a bunch of ways to name and label and analyse things. From there it just becomes a question of comparison - which method of labelling and analysing really lays the best framework for what's being analysed? .. Which methods help the most? Which methods clarify? Which methods obscure? Which methods abide by the general understanding we have of Bach? And which methods superimpose ideas onto Bach which we know have nothing to do w/Bach?

So did Bach use jazz style chords? No. That stuff didn't exist in his day. As a way to analyse anything jazz style chords make it difficult to show voice leading techniques. Did Bach use Roman numerals? Probably not even though there was apparently at least one music theorist who was beginning to use them about that time. More common and accepted in Bach's time and Baroque music in general was so-called 'figured bass' which is a system that can handle non-harmonic tones (passing tones and such). But the author of the analyses we're discussing chose not to use figured bass notation. And he doesn't explain why. To me that's crucial.

But that doesn't mean his analyses of the Chorales are 'wrong.' Rather it's just that they're limited. But the thing is, limited or not, if it's useful to anyone, well, it's GOLD! So that's the context of my assessment of 'questionable.' I'll add to that that I'm a jazz pianist who directed a university music theory and composition program. So I'm comfortable with both sides of the aisle - jazz and classical. But, in the end, if you find the book's approach to be useful or intriguing, well, then definitely, use it. Because everything contributes something ...

One more example of 'questionable' which is the downbeat of measure three. The author says it's an Am7 chord. Underneath the staff it's labeled as a half-dim7th chord. Ok ... It's one or the other, maybe ... And the author suggests the and of the downbeat is an F#dim chord. That's another no 'harm' in 'harmony' moment. Because YES you can see the F#dim on the page in the score. But listen to that in tempo and in context and the F# on the and of the beat is a lower neighbor to G. And that's all it is. Or is that all it is? smile

Actually, in common practice theory a 7th is a dissonance. So calling that chord an Am7 as the author does obscures the fact that the G in that chord is a suspension. It's held over from the alto voice in the previous measure. And it resolves down to the F#. So that chord we SEE as Am7 isn't the important chord. Rather it the chord of resolution we get to on the and of the beat that's the important chord.

There's a lot of detail in all of this - and contradiction as well. It's messy. My opinion is knowing how to sort out the details into a larger picture is the important part. So discussion eventually leads to the common patterns we can see in tonal music. But it really comes down in the end to what any of us find to be useful...

Hope this is helpful....it's my explanation of why the book is questionable in how it presents the chorales . My explanationdefinitely isn'tmeant to be argumentative and there are a lot of ways to skin a cat as a friend of mine often says about music and related stuff.

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#2312791 - 08/08/14 04:37 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: Mark Polishook]
barbaram Offline

Full Member

Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 185
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook

Hope this is helpful....it's my explanation of why the book is questionable in how it presents the chorales .


Extremely helpful and interesting, thanks Mark

Originally Posted By: ShiroKuro
Barbaram, that is definitely not cheap. The question is how much you'll actually use it. Because if you'll use it for year and play through all the 400+ chorales, then of course, the price is just fine.


I agree 100% with you. I'm just trying to assess honestly if I will apply myself with the consistency to justify the purchase. I'm leaning towards it I think - I've come up with 3 spurious justifications already! Eg: This book will cost approx the same as 2 classes. My teacher has just left the country so I'm not currently paying for tuition, therefore it's entirely reasonable to use those funds to get this book instead. Wow, I think I've convinced myself anyway, and I'm the one paying so I don't need to convince anyone else :-)

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#2312884 - 08/08/14 10:14 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: barbaram]
barbaram Offline

Full Member

Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 185
In addition to my compelling argument above, it's almost my birthday so I have gone ahead and splashed out on this as my gift to myself.

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#2312905 - 08/08/14 10:52 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 730
Loc: Leicester, UK
Happy Birthday Barbaram and a perfect gift it is!


Edited by Mark Polishook (08/08/14 10:52 AM)

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#2313041 - 08/08/14 03:29 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
wimpiano Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1546
Loc: The Netherlands
Happy birthday!
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Schimmel 116 S ...

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#2313185 - 08/08/14 09:11 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Barbaram, happy soon-to-be birthday!

Mark, thanks for taking the time to share those comments. Reading your comments, I thought that for me, the biggest benefit would be from doing one's own analysis, regardless of the quality/correctness of the conclusions. If I ever decide to do something like that, I now know where to come for help! smile
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#2314073 - 08/11/14 05:27 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
barbaram Offline

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Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 185
Thanks for the birthday wishes!

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#2315356 - 08/14/14 09:01 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: barbaram]
barbaram Offline

Full Member

Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 185
It arrived already! The advised delivery time was 3-6 weeks, and here it is 5 days later (unlike my SRSS which took at least 5 weeks).
So I feel I got what I paid for with the expensive shipping, and the book looks great.

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#2315400 - 08/14/14 10:11 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Yay! Mine was the same way, it said it would delivered in three weeks, but arrived in a little less than a week. And yes, it's so easy to read that it makes me even more motivated to use it!
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
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#2327505 - 09/14/14 06:23 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
EP Offline
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Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 402
Loc: USA
I'm thinking of having my wife get me this book for my birthday.
For those of you that have had it for a while, are you still finding it more useful than the standard edition for sight-reading practice, worth the $40 or so to get it? I see you can get it through Amazon now.

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#2327513 - 09/14/14 06:44 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
ShiroKuro Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
By "standard edition" you mean, the standard edition of the Chorales, right? If so, there's no comparison, none whatsoever! The new edition, the Czarnecki edition, is fantastic, easy to see, easy to use. I love it. IMO the standard edition is practically worthless when it comes to sight-reading practice because it's impossible to see. I found that everything seemed harder and I was less successful. Also, there's no space to write notes for myself etc. And let me just add, my vision isn't that bad, and I have dedicated piano glasses that have my prescription for the mid-distance, I don't have any problem reading other sheet music. The standard edition of the Chorales is just a horrible horrible size.

So yes, I think the Czarnecki edition is totally worth it! (If you hadn't figured out that was my opinion already! laugh
_________________________
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#2327545 - 09/14/14 08:33 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
EP Offline
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Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 402
Loc: USA
Thanks ShiroKuro,
Yes, I meant the Riemenschneider edition (didn't mention the name because I wasn't sure how to spell it) which I assume is the standard edition, it seems to be the one everyone has.
I've always found it a bit dense which is why I haven't gotten very far with it, although I'd love to do more - Bach's harmonization and voice-leading is without peer, IMHO.
Anyway, thanks, you've helped me make up my mind to get it.

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#2327556 - 09/14/14 09:03 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Be sure to write back and tell us what you think when you get the book. And I agree, I find working on the Chorales very satisfying. smile
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#2336950 - 10/13/14 01:32 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
EP Offline
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Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 402
Loc: USA
Got the book, what a difference. Thanks for turning me on to this. It's now a regular part of my sight-reading program.

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#2336961 - 10/13/14 02:22 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
ShiroKuro Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Glad to hear it! smile

Seriously, read-ability makes such a huge difference!
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#2337025 - 10/13/14 05:02 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
TonyB Online   content
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 425
Loc: Twin Cities
I just ordered both books through Amazon - the Chorales that others here are ordering AND the analyzed Chorales. Books such as this typically are expensive when coming from small publishers and being specialized as these are. In the past, I have found that specialized books like this can go out of print with no warning and if I am even remotely interested, get while they are available. I have the three volumes of Mick Goodrick's "Almanac of Guitar Voice Leading". Those were likewise expensive and I have never regretted owning them. A lot of people now do regret not having bought them, since the price has skyrocketed on Ebay among collectors. These are long out of print and in high demand especially the third volume, and especially among guitar players, of which I am one. They are a great study in voice leading and are suitable equally for keyboard. Mitch Haupers compiled and edited the books and wrote a two-part article in Keyboard magazine a number of years ago specifically detailing how to apply the books to keyboard. Those articles can be found online as PDFs. I would regret not getting these Bach Chorale books as a set later down the road, so now is the time.

Tony
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#2337190 - 10/14/14 07:40 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
ShiroKuro Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Ahh, that's interesting. I hadn't t though about the going out of print bit. But that has happened to score books I've wanted, where I have gone to crazy lengths to try to get something. I don't know that I'll ever do that kind of analyzing, but for someone who thinks they might some day, then I agree purchasing it now is definitely a good idea.
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
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#2337353 - 10/14/14 04:36 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 730
Loc: Leicester, UK
I don't want to be the voice of gloom but the analysis of the chorales in the edition we're discussing isn't great. In fact it verges on awful because it's full of inaccuracies - I posted on that w/examples previously in this thread.

Whereas I haven't seen the Mick Goodrick books -and I'm about to look them up, but I'd assume, because they're coming from MR, that they're excellent in whatever area he's discussing.

By and large the large oversize print of this new Bach edition is welcome and excellent. If material for sight reading is the goal it's a great edition. If analysis is the goal then avoid the version that comes w/chords written in. Or get it and use it but understand that it has huge flaws.

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#2337419 - 10/14/14 07:09 PM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: Mark Polishook]
TonyB Online   content
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 425
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
I don't want to be the voice of gloom but the analysis of the chorales in the edition we're discussing isn't great. In fact it verges on awful because it's full of inaccuracies - I posted on that w/examples previously in this thread.

Whereas I haven't seen the Mick Goodrick books -and I'm about to look them up, but I'd assume, because they're coming from MR, that they're excellent in whatever area he's discussing.

By and large the large oversize print of this new Bach edition is welcome and excellent. If material for sight reading is the goal it's a great edition. If analysis is the goal then avoid the version that comes w/chords written in. Or get it and use it but understand that it has huge flaws.



All I can say is that if your assessment of the Bach Chorale Analysis book is truly accurate, their publishing business is toast. Word travels very fast on the internet and really, looking at their site, the Analysis book is their primary product. If word gets out that this book is seriously flawed, then people will steer clear, wondering also if they were that sloppy in creating the regular Bach Chorales book too. Sloppiness is a habit that is not likely to be evident in only one of their products if the same person(s) are doing both books.

I am not questioning your assessment, but instead stating what would seem logical to me.

Tony
_________________________
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My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2337509 - 10/15/14 01:01 AM Re: Attn Sightreaders! A Bach Chorale book you can actually see! [Re: ShiroKuro]
EP Offline
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Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 402
Loc: USA
I haven't seen the analysis book, but nothing sloppy that I've seen about the chorale book. It's one of those "why didn't someone do this sooner" things, as far as I'm concerned. For me it's just for sight-reading, I'll do my own analysis.

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