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#2316420 - 08/17/14 12:28 AM Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
Gallery:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2316415.html#Post2316415

Hello everyone,

I finally got my hands on a diamond-in-the-rough Hardman-Peck baby grand. This is my first grand piano, and suffice it to say, the price was right. It has a lot of problems which I hope to address, whether that means I hire someone to do the work, or I learn as I go. I've been reading "Piano Servicing, Tuning, and Rebuilding" by Arthur A. Reblitz.


I'm still evaluating the piano, and today was spent moving the piano here, and cleaning the keybed. (You wouldn't believe how much random CRAP was stuck under the keys.)
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2316415.html#Post2316415

This piano seems to be from the early 1900s but I haven't yet gotten an exact year of manufacture.



I can see that in 1973, someone installed new key covers (plastic), and they obviously used a poor quality glue, as several of them have come completely off. Not too worried about that though.


It's missing a nose bolt, but the others are present.

It's missing another one of the plate bolts (in this image, red is the bolt that is present, and yellow arrow is the bolt missing.)


As far as plate hardware, I think that's all that is missing.

This is also a player piano, with what I THINK is the original player piano mechanism. For sentimental reasons, I'd like to repair and/or restore this as well, but the drawer is VERY much in the way of playing the piano, bumping into my knees. Not to mention a large amount of lead tubing down there... I'm not sure I wanna mess with it just yet.

I pulled out the action and cleaned the keybed, but I didn't spend time looking at the underside of the pinblock. Though the piano has not been tuned in several years, it's holding its tune quite well, I think. I'll try figuring out what shape the pinblock is in, and if it's in good shape, will see if I can measure the torque on the tuning pins. (The Reblitz book says there should be at least 50 ft lbs torque on them, right?)


Edited by sopranojam85 (08/17/14 12:37 AM)

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#2316505 - 08/17/14 08:57 AM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1246
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
I'm sure others will chime in, but to me, the missing plate hardware is a big red flag. Check for cracks in the plate before proceeding.
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#2316587 - 08/17/14 02:47 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
Thank you Eric,

No, no cracks anywhere on the plate. I've checked it dozens of times as I've read so many places that this is a "death sentence" to pianos.. I took my chances moving it here with its missing hardware and there was no damage done.. no cracks appeared, and the plate doesn't seem to have shifted at all from before the move here. Most of the HW is there, just missing the two bolts, and on opposite sides.

I've reached the conclusion that the missing bolt is the result of destructive children, given the presence of coins, hair pins, and other shenanigans I found in the keybed.


Edited by sopranojam85 (08/17/14 02:48 PM)

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#2316683 - 08/17/14 08:08 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
I finally had a chance to closely inspect the pin block. As I feared, there are several cracks in the laminations of the pin block, particularly in the bass end of the pin block.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2316682/pin_block.html





The pin block is firmly secured to the cabinet by means I cannot yet see. Perhaps dowels, glue, or a combination of these. I see way too many cracks to believe that filling them with epoxy could serve as a workaround. I bought this piano for so cheap, I feel obligated to go ahead and replace the pin block as part of the rebuilding process.

Thoughts are appreciated. I plan on getting a tech to come out in person to look at this and discuss the options.


Edited by sopranojam85 (08/17/14 08:14 PM)

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#2316696 - 08/17/14 08:34 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21587
Loc: Oakland
The pin block is integral with the case. The easiest way to deal with it is to cut out the area where the holes are and fit in pin block material.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2316703 - 08/17/14 08:51 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: BDB]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: BDB
The pin block is integral with the case. The easiest way to deal with it is to cut out the area where the holes are and fit in pin block material.


So you're saying that a partial pin block can be installed, leaving the rest intact? I can't even fathom how that would work... Logically it seems like it could be done, but would that also throw off the tone quality of the "replaced" section? I suppose if done right, and glued in such a way that it does not rattle with the remaining pins...

The Reblitz book doesn't even mention this as a possibility. I'm curious if anyone else has successfully done something like that?

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#2316712 - 08/17/14 09:03 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21587
Loc: Oakland
Tone quality does not come from the pin block.

Replace the wood where all the holes for the tuning pins are. Leave the area in front and in back intact. If you do not know how to do this, which is similar to patching veneer, your woodworking skills are not good enough to do this yourself.

You might get an old open-block upright and practice it on that first. Keep in mind that this sort of work is not easy. You cannot just read a book and expect it to come out right the first time. That would be like starting out to play the piano by playing Legeti etudes or Boulez sonatas.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2316738 - 08/17/14 10:20 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: BDB]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: BDB
You might get an old open-block upright and practice it on that first. Keep in mind that this sort of work is not easy. You cannot just read a book and expect it to come out right the first time. That would be like starting out to play the piano by playing Legeti etudes or Boulez sonatas.


Trust me, I completely understand that aspect. I won't lie about my woodworking skills, and can sure use practice before diving in. I am just weighing my options on what is possible so that I can maybe find a competent tech to do this, or at least help me with the process a bit.

Thanks for the advice!

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#2316874 - 08/18/14 10:00 AM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
I talked to a tech in town who suggested using CA glue in the loose pins. Of course he wants to look at the condition of the pin block in person (who wouldn't... ) only in-person can one tell what this pin block needs.

If I can get away with an inexpensive CA glue job to tighten the loose pins where the cracks are, I'll be very happy. It's well worth trying, anyhow, as replacing the pin block (or even a part of it) would seem to be a last resort here.

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#2316960 - 08/18/14 02:10 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 540
Loc: CO, USA
Good luck, Soprano. It would be good to to ask your tech for a prioritized written list on what needs to be done to get your piano into the shape YOU want it in (with cost quotations). Let us know when you get that list.

Did you go through the Piano Book (Larry Fine) checklist (or some other checklist) of things to examine before you acquired?

Best wishes-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Händel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2316978 - 08/18/14 02:57 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: phacke]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: phacke
Did you go through the Piano Book (Larry Fine) checklist (or some other checklist) of things to examine before you acquired?



Well, isn't it obvious? No... Did not buy that book yet.

The good news... I ordered a new nose bolt, some CA glue, and some PVC-E glue from Steve's Piano Service. (The former for the pin block, and the latter for the key tops.) The nose bolt should be here in a couple of days. I'll get that tightened down. Not sure how tight it ought to be, but I'm going with hand tight. If I ought to use a tool to further tighten it, let me know. My reading of nose bolts is mostly "don't touch them or tighten them" but I'll take replacing a missing bolt as an exception.

In a couple of weeks I'll schedule a tech visit, and will refrain from any real DIY action til that visit happens.


Edited by sopranojam85 (08/18/14 03:27 PM)

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#2317005 - 08/18/14 04:15 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
Steve Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 663
Loc: Toronto

The piano has been re-pinned with oversize pins.

I find CA glue has a much higher failure rate in these conditions,
like almost 100%.

That piano can be made into a high quality instrument.

Steve
_________________________
Vintage Piano sales and restoration in Toronto
Exclusive Live Performance Player Systems Dealer

http://stevejacksonpianos.com

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#2317006 - 08/18/14 04:19 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2023
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Steve,

I'd be very interested to read your "evidence" for the oversize pins.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2317343 - 08/19/14 01:43 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
I had a very informative conversation with a friend of mine who works at a piano restoration shop. He explained that he's done one other Hardman-Peck, and that the bass side of the pinboard was thicker than the treble side. I can't tell if mine is that way or not, because the plate might be thicker on the treble side, concealing this difference in thickness. The remedy was to plane another solid maple layer and firmly clamp/glue it on to the bass side to the correct thickness.

This pin block seems mortised in to the casing, and on the one he did, he had to rough-cut the pin block, then cut a scarf joint in the pin block somewhere where there were fewer pin holes, i.e. between bass and treble sides), then re-fasten the two halves together... then fine-tune the fit of the pin block. When ready to be reinstalled, he had to separate the scarf joint, mortise the left "half" to the left of the casing, mortise the right "half" to the right casing, re-glue the scarf joint in the middle, then install the plate on top, finishing the install.

This terrifies me, but makes sense. Rest assured I have NO intention of doing this myself, lacking the tools to even try. At the very least, it's nice to have someone in the industry who's willing to talk about how it's done.


Edited by sopranojam85 (08/19/14 02:16 PM)

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#2317387 - 08/19/14 04:23 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: Mark R.]
Steve Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 663
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Steve,

I'd be very interested to read your "evidence" for the oversize pins.


http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showpic&id=3681
_________________________
Vintage Piano sales and restoration in Toronto
Exclusive Live Performance Player Systems Dealer

http://stevejacksonpianos.com

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#2317619 - 08/20/14 07:50 AM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2023
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Steve,

I presume you base the conclusion (of oversized pins) on the crack running along a row of pins. Does this type of crack only happen once oversized pins are installed?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2317640 - 08/20/14 09:12 AM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: Mark R.]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
Hey folks, I haven't measured the pin size yet. I'm hoping that when a tech comes out he can find a way to measure the pin sizes with calipers or something. I'm not ruling out the possibility that maybe someone put oversize pins down in there. I'm also not ruling out the possibility that the lack of a rear nose bolt contributed to this crack, maybe even during the move.

The new nose bolt should come today and I will secure it down a bit. From there I'll start cleaning up the key tops and re-gluing some of the ones that have come off. I'll update with the outcome of the tech and/or rebuilder visit.

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#2317677 - 08/20/14 10:53 AM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: Mark R.]
Steve Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 663
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Steve,

I presume you base the conclusion (of oversized pins) on the crack running along a row of pins. Does this type of crack only happen once oversized pins are installed?


No, it's on the new pins that are too long coming out the bottom of the pinblock and driven to uneven depths.
_________________________
Vintage Piano sales and restoration in Toronto
Exclusive Live Performance Player Systems Dealer

http://stevejacksonpianos.com

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#2317692 - 08/20/14 11:44 AM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
SMHaley Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 683
Loc: Seattle
I don't believe CA glue will give the result expected. This is quite obviously a pinblock overdue for replacement. I'm also not sure I'd consider a Hardman-Peck something that can be a diamond in the rough, but to each their own. The cost of getting this one back to good condition prior to getting to the player action is going to be significant and well beyond its value afterward. Just be aware.
_________________________
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Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2317712 - 08/20/14 12:30 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5306
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: sopranojam85
I had a very informative conversation with a friend of mine who works at a piano restoration shop. He explained that he's done one other Hardman-Peck, and that the bass side of the pinboard was thicker than the treble side. I can't tell if mine is that way or not, because the plate might be thicker on the treble side, concealing this difference in thickness. The remedy was to plane another solid maple layer and firmly clamp/glue it on to the bass side to the correct thickness.

This pin block seems mortised in to the casing, and on the one he did, he had to rough-cut the pin block, then cut a scarf joint in the pin block somewhere where there were fewer pin holes, i.e. between bass and treble sides), then re-fasten the two halves together... then fine-tune the fit of the pin block. When ready to be reinstalled, he had to separate the scarf joint, mortise the left "half" to the left of the casing, mortise the right "half" to the right casing, re-glue the scarf joint in the middle, then install the plate on top, finishing the install.

This terrifies me, but makes sense. Rest assured I have NO intention of doing this myself, lacking the tools to even try. At the very least, it's nice to have someone in the industry who's willing to talk about how it's done.

As has been mentioned earlier, the pinblock in your piano is probably integral with the case. These pinblocks can be removed, duplicated and replaced as a whole unit but doing so is difficult and time-consuming. Fortunately, there are at least three alternatives.

1) The existing tuning pins and holes can be treated with CA (cyanoacrylic adhesive). This may or may not be successful. If it is not successful no harm is done; the pinblock needs to be replaced now and it can still be replaced after the CA treatment. This process has been described many times and in many places. An article describing one such method can, I think, be obtained from Chuck Behm: http://www.pianopromoproductions.com/

2) Sections of the original block can be removed—usually with a combination of routing and chiseling—and inserts somewhat larger than the tuning pin fields can be made and fitted into what remains of the original pinblock. A version of this has been clearly described—also by Chuck—in a series of articles written for the Piano Technician’s Journal. (I think these are also available directly from him.)

3) The bottom of the block can be taped off and sealed (to prevent leakage), the holes filled with epoxy and—after the epoxy has fully cured—redrilled. This method is favored by museum restorers since it is the least intrusive and retains most of the original material (albeit in a somewhat altered form.

Personally, I now opt for a combination of #2 and #3. I fill the holes with epoxy and allow it to soak in thoroughly. I keep filling the holes as necessary to make sure they are all filled to within 10 mm of the top of the block. Once fully cured—and this can take up to 10 to 15 days depending on the chemistry—I route and/or chisel for a 15 mm Delignit insert. This leaves more of the original block in place—now reinforced by the epoxy—and still provides enough new pinblock material to firmly hold the pins.

Both of these latter techniques require some woodworking skills. If you are not sure whether or not your skills are adequate they probably are not. Get some help from a professional. It would be worth farming out this part of the process to avoid making some serious errors.

ddf


Edited by Del (08/20/14 12:31 PM)
Edit Reason: Piano World doesn't like "M" dashes.
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Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2318515 - 08/22/14 09:49 AM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
Craig Hair Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 171
Loc: Holyoke, MA
Mr. Jam,
I just found a goodie box full of metal parts from a Hardman grand that didn't make it. I have your knobs and spanner nuts; bunch of other stuff also. If you know what else you may need, its yours.
Craig
_________________________
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Hampshire Piano
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hampshirepiano.co
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#2319023 - 08/23/14 08:54 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: Craig Hair]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: Craig Hair
Mr. Jam,
I just found a goodie box full of metal parts from a Hardman grand that didn't make it. I have your knobs and spanner nuts; bunch of other stuff also. If you know what else you may need, its yours.
Craig


Hi Craig,

I PM'ed you. I really appreciate the help!

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#2324592 - 09/06/14 12:39 AM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
chernobieff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 125
Loc: Tennessee, USA
I have some wonderful pictures of inside of Hardman Peck factory. You can see them here:
http://antiquepianoemporium.com/hardman-peck-co/


Edited by chernobieff (09/06/14 12:41 AM)
_________________________
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"I inherited a painting and a violin which turned out to be a Rembrandt and a Stradivarius. Unfortunately, Rembrandt made lousy violins and Stradivarius was a terrible painter."

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#2325512 - 09/08/14 08:33 PM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: chernobieff]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2080
Originally Posted By: chernobieff
I have some wonderful pictures of inside of Hardman Peck factory. You can see them here:
http://antiquepianoemporium.com/hardman-peck-co/


Thanks for those pictures. I have had a Hardman grand for about five years and have found it difficult to find much information about it.

It's neat to see your picture where the unusual Hardman style of belly bracing is visible. Most grands of other brands seem to have the bracing radiate from a center point of roughly where the lyre connects to the belly area, in such a way that the braces are almost like spokes of a wheel. But Hardman did the opposite, where the bracing seems more to radiate from the leg that is farthest from the player.

I've also wondered what the kind of wood is that was used in the rim. Even though I still don't know, it's nice to look at those pictures and think that any of those guys would have been able to tell me in an instant, if I had been there to ask.
_________________________
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Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
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Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#2326006 - 09/10/14 11:43 AM Re: Hardman-Peck Baby Grand piano [Re: sopranojam85]
sopranojam85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 25
Loc: Austin, TX
I bought a nose bolt from Steve's Piano Service, but it did not fit. I then found a bolt and thread gauge, and found that 5/16" was the proper bolt size. A 5/16" nut fit just fine, and now the plate is fairly tightened down onto the frame.

Next stop: missing hardware (hinges, repairs to music stand.. at least get this thing "furniture-worthy".)

I'm still evaluating how much I want to invest in repairing or rebuilding this piano. Thank you all for the continued interest and feedback.

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