Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

Trying Something New with Search
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
118 registered (Alexander Borro, anamnesis, ando, 36251, augustm, 35 invisible), 1415 Guests and 7 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Topic Options
#2316434 - 08/17/14 01:12 AM Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 784
Loc: CO, USA
Greetings -

I have two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action that I was hoping someone could comment on. This deals with my NY S&S.

1) Mr Akins web site says on the topic of reinstalling the action "Once the action is in, see if any of the dampers are not working freely. If not, remove the action about four inches, put junk under the dampers to hold them up about a quarter of an inch, and push the action back in"

http://www.balaams-ass.com/piano/chap-5.htm

My question would be, in situations where this procedure works, are there any more permanent, simple and elegant solutions to deal with what is presumably unoptimized engagement of sostenuto lips?

2) The Steinway voicing manual,
http://www.scribd.com/doc/209556122/Steinway-Voicing-Manual
p 22 says that in the Hamburg Voicing Techniques section:

"the keyblock plate must be adjusted in the treble keyblock, which fixes the position of the keyframe on the keybed and thus the strikepoint of the hammers."

Is this true for the NY S&S grand too?
I seem to recall my tech leaving this right cheek block in place for the cycles of reinserting the action after successive hammer voicings. Do yo do this?

Many thanks-


Edited by phacke (08/17/14 01:17 AM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014)

Top
(ad 568) PTG Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
PTG Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#2316439 - 08/17/14 02:04 AM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22778
Loc: Oakland
1. I have posted my method of adjusting dampers here.

2. In general that is true. Steinway actions are only held in position by the cheek blocks, so they have to go in for voicing. You also need to adjust the plate for the best strike position for the top notes. On one I worked on, that also meant adjusting the fallboard hinges so the keys would not hit the fallboard. (That piano was in astonishingly bad condition, and had been since it was new. It is pretty nice, now.)
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2316468 - 08/17/14 06:01 AM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
Olek Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8546
Loc: France
Hello, there is a pencil line on the key bed near the block to locate the action in its original dimensions. That one can be altered in time with hammer wear.

The dampers are not suppose to be annoyed by action placement indeed.

If any change in strike line are necessary they are conducted with hammer gluing.
The treble (not high treble) section typically make the center line of a "Z" in some German models. So strike ratio can be changing around the last strut if the tone is better that way (about 2mm)

regars

Ps I did not analyze that closely but must be a mean to keep the hammers impacting on similarly stiff string portion, when that is not corrected with wire gauge.

I have to look at it more closely to get more the theory behind the tip.
Dampers need to attain the convergence line.


Edited by Olek (08/17/14 06:04 AM)
_________________________
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.! Euh.... sorry for the lengthy postings, I cannot refrain writing !

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/save_africas_lions_loc/?tcltqeb

Top
#2316472 - 08/17/14 06:26 AM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 397
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
The dampers should not be in the way of installing the action. Are you questioning the technical savvy of your tech?


Edited by Jon Page (08/17/14 08:27 AM)
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Top
#2316482 - 08/17/14 07:47 AM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
Zeno Wood Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 503
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Put junk under your dampers? What sort of junk? I wish I knew more about this technique.
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

Top
#2316507 - 08/17/14 09:01 AM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Statement no2 is not true for NY: as you've identified, the action is located via the cheek blocks. They have to be installed to do almost anything with the piano.

Statement no1, re:junk = bizarre! If the sostenuto rail is interfering with the dampers, the solution is to adjust THAT problem first--since that is what is in the way of what is trying to be accomplished. It goes in-and-out and you brutally beat on it to make it go up-and-down.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2316544 - 08/17/14 11:49 AM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: A454.7]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 3023
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
The centerline of note 88 should be located somewhere between 2 and 3mm of the V-bar. If the V-bar is really round, no real measurement can be made. But no piano should have a really round V-bar-and far too many do! It is a V-bar, make it so! The final position is set by ear.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2316548 - 08/17/14 12:04 PM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22778
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
The centerline of note 88 should be located somewhere between 2 and 3mm of the V-bar. If the V-bar is really round, no real measurement can be made. But no piano should have a really round V-bar-and far too many do! It is a V-bar, make it so! The final position is set by ear.


I have no idea what you mean by that first sentence.

The rest of the post is pretty vague, too.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2316649 - 08/17/14 06:38 PM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 3023
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Duh me! I meant to say centerline of HAMMER 88.
Thanks BDB
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2316663 - 08/17/14 06:57 PM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2451
Loc: Maine
Now it all makes sense and corresponds roughly to how I do it. Everything except putting "junk" under the dampers, that is. Actually, now that I think of it, there is some extra stuff in the shop that I need to get rid of. Hmmmmm. Is anyone looking?
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

Top
#2316664 - 08/17/14 06:58 PM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2138
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Duh me! I meant to say centerline of HAMMER 88.
Thanks BDB


That's what I understood!

We are talking about positioning of the action -> strike point.



Edited by Gadzar (08/17/14 06:59 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2316765 - 08/18/14 12:00 AM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 784
Loc: CO, USA
Thanks very much It's all good information.

By "junk" I guess the writer meant any old item that would physically hold the dampers up 1/4" so that the sostenuto lips could be placed correctly with respect to the sostenuto rod assembly during action insertion, if they don't place correctly by themselves. Never tried it.

As for my particular situation: if cheek blocks are out, a few dampers may not come down for some notes after they are played. Cheek blocks in, everything is OK, which is consistent with what most are saying above: cheek blocks are needed for correct positioning of the action.

Jon Page wrote > Are you questioning the technical savvy of your tech?

Not really. He made a point of telling me he puts one cheek block in during voicing (the treble one, I vaguely recall), It seemed to work.

My motivation is to understand what is going on. A primary question has been answered, thank you, and that is the cheek blocks are critical in positioning the action correctly. The one vs two cheek blocks during voicing is still something I am wondering about though.

Best wishes-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014)

Top
#2316768 - 08/18/14 12:07 AM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22778
Loc: Oakland
Both blocks should be in. Other makes of piano may have stops in back of the action that position it properly, but not Steinways, nor several other makes.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2316776 - 08/18/14 12:29 AM Re: Two questions on correct positioning of grand piano action [Re: phacke]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 784
Loc: CO, USA
Many thanks, BDB.

Best regards-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014)

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
Back to School Music SALE!
Save 10% in our online store
.
Just enter SAVE10 in the coupon box during checkout. *
And YES, you can save 10% AND still get free shipping on Jansen Artist benches!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
* Sale does not apply to advertising, how old requests, or any non-tangible items. Can not be combined with any other promotions. Ends August 31, 2015
(ad) Teaching Children Music
Teaching Music to Children
(ad) Yamaha Stage Pianos
Yamaha CP4 & CP40 Stage Pianos
(ads) PD - WNG - MH
Wessell Nickel & Gross
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
New Topics - Multiple Forums
U3 scale design and inharmonicity
by Ivan M.
9 minutes 57 seconds ago
reflecting material behind an upright
by Ivan M.
27 minutes 43 seconds ago
What Every Pianist Should Know About Pianos
by Seeker
41 minutes 4 seconds ago
Hands shaking
by Shepard
Today at 08:12 AM
AMEB AMUSA EXAM
by VITAMIN:)
Today at 07:06 AM
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Forum Stats
80,564 Registered Members
44 Forums
166,526 Topics
2,440,357 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission