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Joined: Aug 2014
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2014
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Hi, I'm an adult beginner. My goal is to be able to play the Goldberg variations. I also like Chopin, Debussy & Beethoven. I love Rachmaninoff's music but I heard his music required huge finger spans. I'm in the market for a new piano and want to get some opinions and insights on some top-flight vertical pianos.
Firstly, I have done and figured out so far. I started out looking for a used, good piano. Then after some research (Piano Book & Piano World, etc), I decided perhaps I should go for a Yamaha U3 or even YUS 5. My philosophy is that it doesn't make sense to settle for an intermediate if I can afford a better one.
I'm constrained by my tiny NYC apartment. A grand is out of question. A baby grand, if I can find a good one, -- many have said that a baby grand isn't as good as a good, large upright -- will not leave me any space for a small dining table.
I finally went to Faust Harrison in NYC last Sunday. The salesperson Matt was very helpful. After playing the Yamahas and the Bechsteins (including the Hoffmanns), I changed my mind because I found myself unable to stand mid-range pianos, especially Asian-made ones. Surprisingly, I found U3 (new) to possess a warmer sound than the new YUS 5. I asked the salesperson if this difference was inherent in the designs or due to voicing. He confirmed that U3 tended to sound warmer than YUS 5.
I loved the sound and the touch of the C. Bechstein 124 on the shop floor. It was noticeably better than the Bechstein 124 (formerly known as Bechstein Academy). I also tried the C. Bechstein Concert 8. I didn't like its sound as much as the C. Bechstein 124. The former sounded too bright for me. Of course, I'm aware that voicing can make the sound mellower. But if I don't like bright sound, shouldn't l look for one that starts out mellow to begin with?
I haven't tried other German brands yet. I'm going to try out all of them (Grotrian, Bluethner, Boesendorffer) as well as M&H and S&S, save for the Sauters and Seilers. One former Sauter dealer told me that he didn't find Sauter to have any special sound.
Since I always appreciate the best and since I tend to hold on dearly to what I have, I'm now open to higher-priced, German-made, top-flight pianos as well as Steinway and M&H.
So my questions for the board: Within the price range of $15,000 - $30,000, what would you consider a great buy for classical music (Bach, Chopin, Beethoven & Debussy)? I'm willing to travel to Germany. For me the price is only a reference point. If one piano sounds great at $15,000 and the other better at $30,000, my choice will depend on how much better the latter sounds and whether the former can serve me well for next 10 years.
I really want to keep the total cost around $20K. I know for Steinway K-52, I'm expected to pay close to $30K. But is Steinway K-52 really better than the three B's?
p.s.: I suspect that some of you may mention Charles Walters as an option. Around 2002-2003, I tried several new Charles Walters pianos at a piano store in Bellevue, WA. They failed to impress me.
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Joined: Nov 2012
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1000 Post Club Member
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Check out Steingraeber uprights. They're totally top tier. If you're looking in that range they're definitely among the pianos to consider.
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Joined: Sep 2013
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Incorporate Sauter, Seiler and Schimmel. The former dealer remark is just plain nonsense. The Piano forum is a better place for your question btw.
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Joined: Nov 2012
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Joined: May 2001
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Incorporate Sauter, Seiler and Schimmel. The former dealer remark is just plain nonsense. The Piano forum is a better place for your question btw. I agree with the above. The Schimmel K132 shines, IMHO, however I am not buying the piano. Play all of those mentioned and then buy what YOU love. Good luck,
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Joined: Dec 2010
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I must ask you. Have you considered noise and your neighbors? Many apartment dwellers have this as a big problem.
I can't say much. Do have to admit. From what I've seen (which isn't much), I'm impressed with that Steingraeber does. Do have to put in a plug for the Steinway 52.
Ron Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon
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I loved a Kawai K-500 I played recently.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Don't go based on other's opinions. You are looking at great names, so just go with what sounds and feels the best to you right now. I do think it's a shame that you can't go with a grand, but if you can fit a baby grand it will be better than an upright just because the action is different. The only problem with baby grand is the sound isn't as full in the top and bass notes as a grand, but you will get the better action.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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Joined: Sep 2013
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If you are really willing to travel to Germany (I missed that bit), you can acquire the very very best of uprights. Pfeiffer from Leonberg near Stuttgart. They build very few pianos a year but what they build is the best there is in the land of upright pianos. http://www.pfeiffer-pianos.com/
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Joined: Aug 2011
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I have never found a Bosendorfer product that failed to amaze me; but then I find it hard to believe Bosendorfer could do anything wrong.
The Schimmel vertical K series are suprisingly impressive and a very good value. I feel they are worth spending some time with.
There are many excellent pianos for you to choose from. I hope you enjoy your search and please let us know what you find.
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Joined: Jun 2005
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5000 Post Club Member
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Incorporate Sauter, Seiler and Schimmel. The former dealer remark is just plain nonsense. The Piano forum is a better place for your question btw. I agree with the above. The Schimmel K132 shines, IMHO, however I am not buying the piano. Play all of those mentioned and then buy what YOU love. Good luck, Rich, is this the one that I played the last time I stopped by? If so, I agree and can't recommend it enough. I was actually going to post and tell the OP to ask you what that piano was -- thanks for stopping by and saving me the trouble!
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 14
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 14 |
I have considered the noise problem. I'm going to add MLV (Mass Loaded Vinyl) or Green Glue to the walls separating my apartment and my two neighbors. Fortunately my apartment is at the corner of the building. So I only have two walls to worry about. I will also use MLV underneath the piano.
I'm also considering the silent add-on, although I don't know how well the pedal action is captured in the slight mode.
Occasionally I hear acoustic piano being played next door. It isn't loud at all. I practice violin a few times a week. My neighbors haven't complained yet. One mentioned that he could hear it but his wife didn't notice my amateur violin sound until he mentioned it to her.
So I think it's going to be OK.
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Joined: Apr 2014
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If you are completely sure you have the will and determination to continue with piano as a life long hobby and are willing to spend $15-$30,000 on a instrument, I would still strongly urge you to buy something much less in the beginning. Instead of putting all your money into hypothetically say a $30,000 Bösendorfer CL130 vertical, a beautiful piano, I believe it is better in the beginning to buy a less expensive but still very solid vertical with 'silent' feature such as the Yamaha U1-SH because of your apartment living. This would allow you to practice in privacy. Also, buying a more affordable piano in the beginning gives you several years then to really look into what is the ultimate piano you would like to have for long term as your skills build so you would be more able to judge the feel and tone of pianos that's so important without depending on others' conflicting opinions. As a beginner, your learning will not suffer from not having a top flight instrument in the first few years. For the first few years, an upright is sufficient, but as you advance and certainly by the time you are able to play intermediate to early advance repertoire, it is much better to upgrade to a grand piano. Again a grand piano with 'silent' feature may be best for apartment living, but you could also supplement an acoustic piano with a $2,000 digital. Most dealers are more than happy to upgrade you from an upright to a grand piano if the grand piano is at least twice the value of the upright. If you start out with a tier 1 upright, then you are left with trading up to a very expensive tier 1 grand piano once you realize a grand piano is necessary. It would be difficult to trade a top-flight $30K upright for a good standard conservatory grade $30K grand piano without losing a lot of money on your part. Check out my teacher's blog and some of her thoughts on why a serious classical student would need a grand piano. http://fundamentalkeys.com/grand-piano/
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391 |
If you are completely sure you have the will and determination to continue with piano as a life long hobby and are willing to spend $15-$30,000 on a instrument, I would still strongly urge you to buy something much less in the beginning. Instead of putting all your money into hypothetically say a $30,000 Bösendorfer CL130 vertical, a beautiful piano, I believe it is better in the beginning to buy a less expensive but still very solid vertical with 'silent' feature such as the Yamaha U1-SH because of your apartment living. This would allow you to practice in privacy. Also, buying a more affordable piano in the beginning gives you several years then to really look into what is the ultimate piano you would like to have for long term as your skills build so you would be more able to judge the feel and tone of pianos that's so important without depending on others' conflicting opinions. As a beginner, your learning will not suffer from not having a top flight instrument in the first few years. For the first few years, an upright is sufficient, but as you advance and certainly by the time you are able to play intermediate to early advance repertoire, it is much better to upgrade to a grand piano. Again a grand piano with 'silent' feature may be best for apartment living, but you could also supplement an acoustic piano with a $2,000 digital. Most dealers are more than happy to upgrade you from an upright to a grand piano if the grand piano is at least twice the value of the upright. If you start out with a tier 1 upright, then you are left with trading up to a very expensive tier 1 grand piano once you realize a grand piano is necessary. It would be difficult to trade a top-flight $30K upright for a good standard conservatory grade $30K grand piano without losing a lot of money on your part. Check out my teacher's blog and some of her thoughts on why a serious classical student would need a grand piano. http://fundamentalkeys.com/grand-piano/ Ya, I agree. I can't justify spending $30k or even $15k on an upright when you can get a decent grand for that much. In the end, it's still an upright, which is a very different action than grand pianos, and inferior at that.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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