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Good day. As a piano student and late bloomer I thought that I would put together a "Expectation of a teacher" that might help me in my search. I'm posting it to get comments and maybe insights in what I'm looking for.
First some background:

I'm a 66 year very young piano learner. At 60 with zero music background, and newly retired, I started on the tenor sax, loved Stan Getz, and had 2 sax teachers & at the end a very experienced piano & music teacher. I had a hard time relating to chords so he suggested I take a few piano lessons. And, as they say, that was the end of that, the sax that is. So I stayed another 2 years with him and decided that I knew what I needed to do and have been on my own for over a year. I have an extensive library of adult learning books and others. I am now playing John Lewis's music from the Modern Jazz Quartet and many other songs in that light. I'm starting my 4th year on the piano with a routine of, 1 - 2 hrs per day 7 days a week. I read theory constantly and love it. I'm a retired computer geek so to speak. I also belong to a small piano group that meets at our homes once a month, very interesting since I play jazz and they, the other 2 play classical.
Anyway I'm working my way through the Practice of Practice by Jonathan Harnum, engrossing book, and I got to the chapter on teachers and decided I have to try this again, having a teacher that is. So I'm writing this note to you.

My Expectations of a Teacher

I want someone that I can grow with, inside and outside practice. Someone not guided by time/money but success in the student. Maybe this is too much to ask for but I must see if that person is out there. When reading the Practice of Practice many famous musicians where interviewed as to their experience with teachers. Almost all of them had teachers that where outside the usual teaching experiences: Stepping outside the usual teaching box.


Learning to play an instrument and moving through the music experience is much more that just playing the instrument. The learning of all facets of music takes much more than the once a week hour: Concert viewing, talking about music theory, being able to contact, if not in person then via our great message/email systems/Skype. I could almost call it a friendship of like minded music relationship interests.

I think this is where I’m at in my development:


Zone of Proximal Development: (music you can play with the help from a more experienced player/teacher)

-Know the state of current skills, where you need to go, what skills you most need to practice to get to the next level.

-Gain and maintain your interest in the task.

-Simplify the task.

-Emphasize certain aspects of the task that will help you “get it”.

-Help you control your level of frustration.

-Play along with you when necessary.

Since the list could go on and on, I’ll stop here and hope you get what I’m trying to say.

You mentioned in the other thread about turning down students that you're having a hard time finding a teacher. Could it be that this comment is making potential teachers a little wary? This makes it sound like you're expecting the teacher to give you a lot of their time for free. But most teachers, and all good ones, are working professionals So not only are extras interactions like you've above difficult to schedule, but they end up sounding like you're trying to take advantage of a teacher and get something for free when it should be paid for.

Maybe you could try to change that part of your note and see if you have any better success?

Good advise. No, I defiantly don't ever expect anything for free. For example I once offered what I thought was a good teacher student match a years salary, very high for a piano teacher's salary. Finally I was told that most of the areas not in the "normal" piano teaching arena were in fact beyond them so they declined.
I will adjust that comment; however all someone has to do is ask, since price, with me, is never an issue.
Comment changed!
frank
"I want someone that I can grow with, inside and outside practice; all relating to understanding and playing music. Someone not guided by time/money (salary will be commensurate with time and experience)b][/b] but success in the student."

Some teachers also include a monthly group session where students perform for each other, where they discuss a number of important, but somewhat peripheral topics, like composers, musical styles, periods, etc., as well as music theory, ear training and performance. You'll find this more often with teachers who work with older, more advanced students.

I don't understand your post Frank.
Are you planning to publish your list of Expectations so that potential teachers will see it?

After you write "I think this is where I’m at in my development:"
You switch the person of your writing to the second person using "you" You say: "maintain your interest," "control your frustration," etc. My guess is that you are talking about what you want the teacher to do: i.e. you, Frank, want the teacher to control your frustration, but what you have written says that you want the teacher to control the teacher's frustration.

To me "grow with, inside and outside..." sounds rather more intimate or at least more groovy than would be necessary for a piano teacher-student relationship.

When I was looking for a teacher, it helped to identify teachers who were accepting or seeking new students and then choose someone from that pool. Before I adopted that strategy, I was turned down by several teachers who had a full studio or preferred not to teach adults.

Start with your small home piano group--make sure everyone knows you are looking for a teacher!

Frank,

With all due respect, has it occurred to you that any teacher who had all these attributes would probably not take you as a student?

How do you plan to handle that when it happens?

I don't think the OP's requests from a teacher are too demanding - in fact I think they line up with many fine teachers I've known throughout the years.

While I think defining these things for yourself - as well as how they many manifest themselves in practical means - are good benchmarks for you to see if things are going well with you and your new teacher. Selecting a good teacher goes way beyond an initial interview and even the first few lessons. It can take months for teacher and student to develop a good sense of rapport and knowing one another well enough to really get the ball rolling and figure out if it's working or not.

I do think, however, that saying all of this to a teacher at the beginning may be a bit off-putting or overwhelming since they usually come with a bit of time. Perhaps start with the basics of what you need, and then see if the other things manifest over time. If so, keep going, if not, reassess.

This may be a large part/source of your frustrations. At age 66, the odds that you are as flexible as a young student are pretty darn long. Not only are our bodies far from flexible at this age, ie cartilage, tendons, and muscles tough as nails, our myelin production way down, our habits are deeply ingrained and most difficult to change.

Being enthusiastic and young at heart will off-set some of the above problems and enable your musical growth to an incredible degree, so you do have that going for you, and most teachers I know really appreciate it.


This is most of us, but never forget, we still have to feed ourselves, put a roof over our heads, upkeep our instruments, provide for our families, etc.

Best of luck to you.

Laguna Greg, yes I found what I thought was a fit but when I heard the price with no negotiating I backed off. I mean an very big price. So here I go again thinking maybe it is just about the money.
frank

Whenever a potential client starts negotiating the price, I immediately know things are not going to end well.

If you can't afford the teacher you want, then maybe YOU need to adjust your expectations.

So here I go again thinking maybe it is just about the money.

Yes, it's true. You are asking a LOT from a teacher as a new student who they don;t know so the price tag has to match.

Frank,

I must agree with my peers here about haggling over the price for lessons.

Either the teacher is worth it, or they're not. If they are, then it's insulting to have a relatively ignorant person like yourself tell them they shouldn't get the money they ask for, and that other people already pay them. All the more reason to turn you down, never talk to you again, and gossip about you to friends. As a regular guy off the street, you have nothing to offer them in return for the break you are asking them to give you. Why should they bother?

I won't even tell you what I paid my teacher in Paris for lessons. Franc for franc, every lesson cost more than the monthly rent for my studio. Of course, he was a pianist and composer who gave more than 60 concerts a year internationally, had more then 200 recordings to his credit and had won prizes for them, was a member of the American National Academy of Arts and Letters, had more than 40 of his compositions in print, and was considered enough of an authority on Debussy that Henle asked him to head the editorial committee on a new edition of a recently discovered two-piano work that had never before been published.

This is not a guy you haggle about the price of lessons with. He was worth every penny.

As a matter of fact, I better not tell you what I charge for lessons. You'd fall over in a faint.

Greg, my last teacher charged $180/hr and like yours, was worth every penny. The problem the OP and other beginners face, is that they have few skills to differentiate teachers' abilities and skills to match their learning needs. At the other extreme, their is the ubiquitous cloud of "teachers" who can barely play the instrument, have little background and developmental knowledge, and few teaching skills, but by charging so little, fill their studios with students having low expectations or little knowledge of what's possible. This leads to understandable confusion by well-meaning students such as our OP who sees the fees charged by the latter but wants the skills and knowledge of the former. They are understandably frustrated.

Ciccolini?

Hopefully getting real. To the OP:

You have had two years of piano lessons, and then taught yourself for four years. You're in your sixties (I'm not much younger). You have written a list of expectations that is all over the place. Some of them suggest work outside of teaching hours "... being able to contact, if not in person then via our great message/email systems/Skype. I could almost call it a friendship of like minded music relationship interests." That kind of thing can induce a teacher to "price himself out of the market" - or at least anticipate he'll have more work than the usual 60 minutes/ week. Anyway, here's what I suggest.

If you are serious about piano, get a teacher to assess you as a serious student and see where you are. He will see what it is that you need to learn and unlearn, and what you have to do when working with him - and during your practice hours - to get there. At that point, decide whether you are a serious student; whether you are willing to do what he says, consistently, over the long haul.


You are absolutely right, that music has many facets, and if you're serious you should learn them. Much of this is what you can do (and should do) outside of lesson time. Your (future) teacher might recommend that you to a given concert, or listen to given recordings, and what to listen for. But the work is yours. Rather than talking about music theory, you would be working on music theory. There are teachers who have regular lessons, and then also have a time slot for music theory, which is a separate, paid for time.

I think that you are on the right track about finding a good teacher, and working on whatever aspects of music. At that point, however, the teacher has to define much of the path for you, to get you there. It may not be the same as the one outlined in the book.

Btw, a lot of people who made it into music also went through their share of mediocre and even horrid teachers. Doing what is needed and not giving up seems to be the common denominator.

Noel Lee.

John, I like that! "...the ubiquitous cloud of teachers..."

Ah - I have his three LPs with Bernard Kruysen of Faure, Debussy and Ravel songs.

You do? Hardly any Americans know him! He was a wonderful collaborative pianist. He asked me to be one of his staff accompanists in 1990 when he gave a series of master classes at the Sorbonne Nouvelle during the Festival Robert Schumann. I learned as lot from him about working with singers.

I'm curious about the OPs "very big price."

Lunch money?
Dinner money?
Rent money?