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#2318574 - 08/22/14 12:55 PM Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats.
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1271
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
It's so simple, I can't believe I didn't think of it sooner. Use it to measure 4:2 and 6:3 octaves, to measure contiguous major 3rds. The possibilities are endless.

Use it to:
1) Record a beating interval
2) Enhance the beats
3) Listen to the beats from the computer
4) even measure and compare beat speeds,

But most importantly,

4) Go back to the piano and try to hear, with your own ears, what Audacity was able to create. Audacity's filtered wave form is something like what the skilled tuner's ear hears. With practice, most people can develop this skill. Audacity, combined with other techniques, shortens the time needed to develop a tuner's ear.

Watch my video here:

http://howtotunepianos.com/awesome-new-tool-to-help-students-tune-pianos-and-its-free/

This is a tool for beginning aural tuners to help them learn. When a beginning aural tuner has difficulty hearing or measuring beats, it can be frustrating, even devastating because the learning process basically crashes. This tool can help the tuner move forward and continue to practice the logistical skills, while improving their hearing at the same time.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2318646 - 08/22/14 04:12 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1317
Loc: Manywheres
Excellent!!!
laugh wow
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Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2318660 - 08/22/14 05:09 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1754
Loc: Mexico City

I have a word to say about this topic.

This is how Doelkees has been measuring the beat rates of the audio files posted here by several posters.

For example:

Criticize My Temperament by Hakki

I asked Kees, via PM, how he measured the beat rates and he told me he uses the Audition software.

And there are more people measuring beat rates of intervals this way. Hakki himself, after that post, has made his own measuring:

A220-A440 Temperament Recording by Hakki


As I say in spanish:


Honor a quien honor merece!



We must credit Kees for this idea.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2318666 - 08/22/14 05:20 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Bosendorff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 278
Hi Mark,

Cool video, and just wanted to say keep up the good work. thumb Also, wanted to tell you that anyone can get the old version of Adobe Audition for free.

All you need to do is register with Adobe services (link below) and you will have complete/legal access to their old CS2 collection, which includes Audition 3. Simply click "I agree" when the last registration page shows they don't give support anymore and choose the Audition link.

Adobe site link

After installing the software, record/open your wave file of piano sound to analyze and select "Spectral Frequency Display" under the View menu.

Then use the zoom commands at the bottom to better see the beats and use the "hand" to drag the right side (above the Hz scale) to see the lower frequencies, which are the ones you are interested in. I'm sure you can find the rest yourself. Enjoy!

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#2318680 - 08/22/14 06:04 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1271
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Rafael, I will not pretend to invent this idea, but I know you have a beef with me so that's fine.

Kees uses a frequency spectrum. This is a frequency filter. There is a difference. The main being this method allows the student to hear the beats. (You didn't even watch the video, did you?)

I am an aural tuner teaching aural tuning techniques. Kees' method is helpful no doubt, but it doesn't train the ear as easily as being able to actually hear the beats.

Truth be told, I know what a frequent spectrum is, but I never could figure out how Kees could measure beats from it; I never saw a way to measure one second as precisely as Audacity does. (Btw it's Audacity, not Audition).
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2318687 - 08/22/14 06:19 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1317
Loc: Manywheres
Who cares who is first?

Background and prejudices aside: that was an excellent demonstration using technology to help focus our senses. This needs to be applauded--it is a great "shortcut" that is now available to be used freely by all in the learning process.

Why are great concepts so hard for people to see/hear?
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2318695 - 08/22/14 06:58 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1197
Loc: Québec, Canada
Audacity is a great open source software.

All of what Mr. Cerisano has shown in this video is how easily to go about it with this software.

What is really cool is how he finally could in a few words explain to people how this software can be used for beginner tuners.

So right on.

PS. Then again, I'm kind of happy that I learnt to tune before the advent of these tools. Still organic for me, even though I use tunelab most of the time.

If I had a student, the last thing I would show this person, would be visual clues. In order to find out if this person had a natural ability.

But I also do live sound, studio work etc... And all the wonderful tools available now are quite mind boggling and extremely interesting.

So I can see a beginner embracing those tools.


Edited by accordeur (08/22/14 07:10 PM)
Edit Reason: More to say
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Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2318707 - 08/22/14 07:33 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1754
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Truth be told, I know what a frequent spectrum is, but I never could figure out how Kees could measure beats from it; I never saw a way to measure one second as precisely as Audacity does. (Btw it's Audacity, not Audition).


Doelkees uses Audition from Adobe. It's Audition, not Audacity.

And yes, I saw your video. IMHO, this is not a good way to teach how to estimate beat rates. This is a way to visually measure what you can not hear.

Your video teaches how to VISUALLY measure the beat rate of an interval. You are teaching to trust our eyes, not our ears.

To learn aural skills you have to train your ears.

Using it as a tool to learn to aurally estimate beat rates, is only putting the horse behind the cart.

BTW: You don't have to measure one second. You only have to count as many beats as possible in the graph and see how much time they take, then you divide the number of beats by the amount of time and you get a very accurate beat rate.



Edited by Gadzar (08/22/14 07:41 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2318713 - 08/22/14 08:09 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2101
Loc: Maine
It's easy to do the same thing in Reaper , or any DAW recording software. Reaper is free for purposes like this. It's a great program, but I'd guess it's a bit harder to master than Audacity.

What you can learn from analyzing musical waveforms in a good DAW, can be quite useful to a tuner. I stay away from over-analyzing and theorizing, so don't ask me to share any of my brilliant discoveries.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2318716 - 08/22/14 08:24 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: David Jenson]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 134
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
I stay away from over-analyzing and theorizing, so don't ask me to share any of my brilliant discoveries.



Everybody has a price. wink




HW

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#2318723 - 08/22/14 08:46 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 718
Loc: England
I must disagree that this is nothing more than a visual means of measuring beat rates... unless of course you don't have a sound card in your computer !

Being a purely aural tuner I recall being initially trained long before computers became part of everyday life. I, like many apprentices, had no idea how to ascertain the speeds of rapidly beating intervals .... slow beating intervals were easy enough, but trying to mentally count was no where near acurrate enough.

This method gives a much better and acurrate focus , enabling the listener to learn what progressive rapidly beating intervals actually sound like. Repeatedly listening to examples should indelibly imprint these different trill rates on the brain. It's no longer necessary to attempt to try to mentally count the number of beats per second, and much easier to listen to the actual acurrate beat rates. The only thing that I personally disagree with is the idea being put forward indicating the use of one second samples .... no I consider much longer samples would work better, enabling the brain to hook onto and commit to memory the correct sounds of differing ratios .... completely dropping the idea of having to focus on counting beats.

When I was learning to lay a scale, my mentor would examine it and constantly get me to compare my scale to one of his perfect examples. I had to strive to match his examples if I were ever to achieve the high standards of becoming a professional concert tuner.

This modern audio technology is like having a tutor looking over your shoulder 24/7 ..... all for free. Why stop at an individual interval ... why not record an entire perfect scale to commit to memory and compare to one's real life efforts ?
It's no different to relying on a top of the range ETD,except that they are visual, where as training your brain to recognise intervals using analytical software takes away any need for an ETD. I find this quite exciting, and wish this means of ascertaining progressive 3rds and 6ths were around back in the mid 60s when I started my training. smile
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2318728 - 08/22/14 09:28 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1754
Loc: Mexico City
Let me explain what I mean. The goal is to hear the beats and, when comparing two beat rates, to be able to say which is faster.

Audacity, Audition and mainly ETDs give a visualisation of what you are supposed to hear.


BTW, to tune ET you do not need to count exactly x.xx bps! What you tune is a smooth progression in the beat rates of P5s, P4s, M3s, M6s, etc.

For doing that, you have to train your ears.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2318762 - 08/22/14 11:27 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1271
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I agree with everything in your last post Rafael.

But here is my problem, and here is how I got here:

What do you do when someone has paid a lot of money to learn how to tune, is bright and quick, is determined, but just can't hear beats, or can hear them but can't tell 7bps from 8bps?

I have seen first hand, students going from not being able to hear, or hear differences, to saying "oh ya, now I hear it", just from listening first to how the beats sound in Audacity, and then listening to the piano.

Previously, I would have to say good-bye to the students after the course, knowing they would probably never pick up a hammer again.

Nothing can deflate my excitement about this new pedagogical tool.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2318782 - 08/23/14 01:32 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1754
Loc: Mexico City
I do not teach tuning to your students, so I do not know how they can learn to hear beats.

But I know how I learned myself and I have an idea on how I would teach piano tuning.

Beats in RBIs in short are like a snake hidden in a bunch of leaves, it is so well camouflaged that you can't see it... until it moves!

So start with a two string unison, in tune, no beats. Then very slowly detune it to make the beats appear.

Repeat with an octave, then a fifth, then a fourth and last with a third. When you listen at a third, or any other interval, that is being detuned from pure to wide, to pure, to narrow and then to pure again, you clearly hear the beats appear and then become faster and faster, then slower and slower, until they disappear and re-appear again, become faster and faster and then slower and slower and then diasappear again. If you do this, there is no way for anybody with normal hearing to not hear the beats and the moving beat rate. The snake is moving, it is now visible.

The next drill is to tune equal beating intervals. You hear at a reference interval, usually a P4, at about 1 bps, and you have to tune the adjacent fourth, above or below, to beat exactly the same.

Then you repeat that drill with other intervals. You can tune thirds or fifths or any other interval with 2 bps, then 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, up to 14 bps. The student is now able to replicate whatever beat rate he hears, in whatever interval he tunes.

Another excellent exercise is to tune contiguous major thirds that add up to form an octave and then check the octave, if it's wide or narrow retune each contiguous third until they add up to a nice octave. The student will find on his own that major thirds need to be wide to form a good octave.

It took me only two days of practice to be able to tune estimated ET tempered M3s F3A3, A3C#4 and C#4F4 to produce a good sounding F3F4 octave. Of course this worked only for F3F4 and only in that particular piano. But this was a wonderful drill on how to correctly temper CM3s without counting beats at all. By only estimating the same amount of tempering of CM3s.

You can next divide an arbitrarily tempered wide M6 into 3 minor thirds equally tempered. For example tune C3A3 to 8 bps wide and then divide it into 3 m3s C3D#3, D#3F#3, F#3A3 equally tempered. Only 2 notes to tune! It's easy!

Next you can practice to divide an octave into four equally tempered m3s. Take for example A2 and tune up four equally tempered contiguous minor thirds, A2C3, C3D#3, D#3F#3, F#3A3 to have a good A2A3 octave. The student will discover here that m3s have to be narrow and Major sixths wide in order to have a pure octave.

The next step could be to divide a M3 of an arbitrary wide size into four equally tempered P5s/P4s, as done in meantone setting (tetrasecting a major third). For example tune a 4 bps wide M3 CE and then tune CG, GD, DA, AE to have equal beating P5s, and proportional beating P4s/P5s, and equal beating P4s. There are only three notes to tune: G, D and A. Here is a good moment to explain why fourths are wide and fifths are narrow. Ask the student to tune them pure and see what happens with AE. Then contract the fifths an expand the fourths to get a good AE. Also an excelent drill in preparation for tuning ET.

In fact, if you are able to tune a good F3F4 octave, and then divide this octave into 3 CM3s and then to divide each M3 into four equally tempered P4s/P5, you have already tuned ET!

You can next learn interval tests: M3M10, M3M6, M6M10, m3M3, P4P5, etc. To refine your temperament.

These drills are first heared then tuned by the student. Developing little by little hearing and manual skills. Practicing until mastering before going to the next level.

This is in part how I learned and definitely the way I would teach.

As a teacher, you can imagine and design a complete battery of tuning exercises going from easy to difficult.

Don't forget ghost tones which are the equivalent of your equalization in Audacity, you hear only the coincident partials beating.

That trains not only hearing but tuning hammer techniques as well.

And this avoids all interferences from visualization.

But I know your approach is to teach tuning following the path of an actual tuning. This approach does not allow this kind of drills, which are never used by a tuner when he tunes a piano.

That's why I don't like your method. You confront the students to problems too much complicated that are out of the reach of their capabilities. And, obviously, you are faced to the reality that they are not able to hear and do what you ask them.

And you pretend to solve this lack of "know how", with the use of modern cybertechnollogy which doesn't develop aural and manual skills.

IMO, it is impossible to learn piano tuning in 20 hours as you pretend in your course. There are too many things to understand, too many things to learn and too many skills to develop.

I don't know if you realize that in all my descriptions there are no mathematical concepts which, instead of helping students understand, only create confusion. I am able to show them, or better: to make them discover by their own, why fifths and minor thirds must be narrow and fourths, major thirds and major sixths must be wide, with not a single arithmetic operation, with not a single mention of Pythagorean and Syntonic commas, not a single mention of partials and iH and all the mathematical stuff of ET and its 12th root of 2, etc. Of course, no computer and software needed, no ETD needed.

All this is based exclusively on hearing.

If there is a thing I would avoid if I were teaching piano tuning, it is for sure visual aids and mathematical concepts. That can be taught later when the student is able to tune the piano by ear and the visual tools and math concepts can help him understand the whys, whats and hows.

The better way of not being able to tune a temperament by ear is to tune it with an ETD.

PS: By doing the hearing and tuning exercises described above the student is practically forced to understand what pure, narrow and wide intervals are and to know what happens with the beat rate if he moves down or up the lower or the upper note of the interval. And because he learns by doing , it becomes second nature, no need to think, no need to solve a quiz.


Edited by Gadzar (08/23/14 07:34 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2318820 - 08/23/14 07:10 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Herr Weiss]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2101
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
I stay away from over-analyzing and theorizing, so don't ask me to share any of my brilliant discoveries.



Everybody has a price. wink




HW



Ha! You're right. I'm a bleedin' capitalist, so if the price is right, I'll spill it all out. -

Good response! thumb
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2318827 - 08/23/14 07:37 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1317
Loc: Manywheres
Mark Cerisano, RPT, your mistake was in titling: the "see" and "measure" part is confusing people. Yes that is possible, and yes that is awesome too, but the exciting part for pedagogy is the hearing part. That is what is really helpful in the learning process--especially when done with live feedback.

One could use a EQ, a microphone, and some earbuds to tune a piano while hearing the boost in audible beats. This is a great exercise: not only can the beating be turned up, but they can also be turned down to further judge perception--and/or to shift the attention to a different part of the tone for alternative ways of perceiving tuning/tone.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2318835 - 08/23/14 08:02 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
pyropaul Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 186
Loc: Montreal
I wonder how BDB's hypothesis can explain how the EQ peak at 880Hz is able to boost the sound of the beats. In his world, there should be nothing special to hear there. Also interesting in Mark's video that the envelope modulation was what he used to count the beats.

A tunable band-pass filter would be all that's needed for a microphone->earbuds "tuning enhancement" app - I would think most smarphones have enough processing power to do this in real time. Or just an old analog synth module, a microphone, amp and headphones smile

Paul.

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#2318863 - 08/23/14 11:05 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Gadzar]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1271
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Rafael, we obviously misunderstand each other. I have been teaching for 10 years and I've taught over 200 students. I have already run through your hypothesis of teaching tuning that you write about and applied it in practice, and found its defects. Also, please accept that if one person has a beef with another, they will choose to see the bad side of the other. See below for my examples.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

The next drill is to tune equal beating intervals. You hear at a reference interval, usually a P4, at about 1 bps, and you have to tune the adjacent fourth, above or below, to beat exactly the same.


P4 do not beat at the same speed, they increase throughout the temperament in ET.
Originally Posted By: Gadzar


Then you repeat that drill with other intervals. You can tune thirds or fifths or any other interval with 2 bps, then 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, up to 14 bps. The student is now able to replicate whatever beat rate he hears, in whatever interval he tunes.


Not accurate enough
Originally Posted By: Gadzar


Another excellent exercise is to tune contiguous major thirds that add up to form an octave and then check the octave, if it's wide or narrow retune each contiguous third until they add up to a nice octave. The student will find on his own that major thirds need to be wide to form a good octave.

Three incorrect M3 can add up to an octave. Not good enough.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

But this was a wonderful drill on how to correctly temper CM3s without counting beats at all. By only estimating the same amount of tempering of CM3s.

That is counting.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

You can next divide an arbitrarily tempered wide M6 into 3 minor thirds equally tempered. For example tune C3A3 to 8 bps wide and then divide it into 3 m3s C3D#3, D#3F#3, F#3A3 equally tempered. Only 2 notes to tune! It's easy!

Arbitrary means practicing something you will never do when tuning a piano; an exercise. What do you say to your student when he says, "Ok, after I tune the three m3 to equal a M6, what do I do next?"

Originally Posted By: Gadzar


Next you can practice to divide an octave into four equally tempered m3s.

See above

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

The next step could be to divide a M3 of an arbitrary wide size into four equally tempered P5s/P4s.

I used to teach that for F3D4,G3D4,G3C4,F3C4, then confirm F3A3=7bps. (The White Anchor) Again, you can have incorrect P4 and P5 and still confirm F3A3 = 7bps. Not accurate enough.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

In fact, if you are able to tune a good F3F4 octave,

What is a good F3F4? Just tune a wide 4:2 and narrow 6:3. But how you must be able to hear a beating m3 and M6. Audacity helps you HEAR the beats, doesn't just show you the beats.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar



You can next learn interval tests: M3M10, M3M6, M6M10, m3M3, P4P5, etc. To refine your temperament.

With my Bisecting Window Temperament sequence, this type of refining is done while you are setting the temperament. Why do we have to wait until the temperament is finished to refine? Because the methods we use to initially set the temperament are not accurate enough. Also, my sequence requires you to constantly listen deeper into the sound so that by the time you are finished with the temperament, your ear is tuned to hear beat speed differences. Its like walking into a dark room; until you've been there for a while, you don't see very clearly.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

As a teacher, you can imagine and design a complete battery of tuning exercises going from easy to difficult.

I hate exercises. Why should I do exercises when I can learn how to tune a piano, and practice at the same time?

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

Don't forget ghost tones which are the equivalent of your equalization in Audacity, you hear only the coincident partials beating.

They don't work and are overrated. The top note needs to be accurately tuned in order to excite the partials of each interval note. And not equivalent; Audacity shows intervals visually. What a resource for visual learners. But the goal is to transfer the visual to the auditory.
Originally Posted By: Gadzar


That trains not only hearing but tuning hammer techniques as well.

Not as well as double string unison. Imagine feeling the effect of the hammer on pitch every time you want to change pitch of a note.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar


And this avoids all interferences from visualization.

You say interferences. You are not a visual learning. Good on you. Everyone is not like you.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

That's why I don't like your method. You confront the students to problems too much complicated that are out of the reach of their capabilities.

Hmm, I don't think they would like to hear you say that.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

And, obviously, you are faced to the reality that they are not able to hear and do what you ask them.

Hmmm, again. But they are now, with Audacity.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

And you pretend to solve this lack of "know how", with the use of modern cybertechnollogy which doesn't develop aural and manual skills.

Hmmm, yet again. My students don't seem to share your intellectual mind candy. You should see the unisons my students are tuning after 10 hours of following my inferior "tuning procedure" method.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

IMO, it is impossible to learn piano tuning in 20 hours as you pretend in your course.

Ok mister, there you've gone too far. I can not stand it when others make their own inferences about what I do, in order to throw it back in my face to make me look stupid or incompetent, for their own selfish and hurtful reasons. You're not the only person who has done this to me. (I have not, never did, and will never say Bach created ET)

Read my webpage. No person can learn to tune a piano in 20 hours. (Although I did have one bright student who did an exceptional job.)

I tell all my students they will have to practice six months to a year.

From mrtuner.com FAQ page:
Q - How much practice will I need?

A - That does depend on your aptitude and basic musical skills, but on average, I would say, after a year of concentrated practice, you could be ready to pass the exams.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

I don't know if you realize that in all my descriptions there are no mathematical concepts which, instead of helping students understand, only create confusion.


For you. I am not a teacher for all students. Students who do well with me have a high intellectual ability. I have a degree in mechanical engineering. I can't teach like I am a high school drop out. Not that that approach is not appropriate for some people.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

I am able to show them, or better: to make them discover by their own, why fifths and minor thirds must be narrow and fourths, major thirds and major sixths must be wide, with not a single arithmetic operation, with not a single mention of Pythagorean and Syntonic commas, not a single mention of partials and iH and all the mathematical stuff of ET and its 12th root of 2, etc. Of course, no computer and software needed, no ETD needed.

Hmmm, what do they really know then? How can they talk to others. How do they think themselves out of difficult situations? They are just trained monkeys, IMO.

Originally Posted By: Gadzar

If there is a thing I would avoid if I were teaching piano tuning, it is for sure visual aids and mathematical concepts. That can be taught later when the student is able to tune the piano by ear and the visual tools and math concepts can help him understand the whys, whats and hows.

PS: By doing the hearing and tuning exercises described above the student is practically forced to understand what pure, narrow and wide intervals are and to know what happens with the beat rate if he moves down or up the lower or the upper note of the interval. And because he learns by doing , it becomes second nature, no need to think, no need to solve a quiz.


That is your opinion. That is not my experience. You seem to think you know so much about teaching tuning. So much so that you have the right to criticize my methods. Methods that I have developed over a decade. How many students have you taught? How many of your students are actually professional technicians? Despite what some people may think, I am not trying to "create" a market. People pay me a respectable fee to learn piano tuning and I have never been asked to refund the tuition, never, in ten years.

Also, with the closure of Chicago School of Piano Technology, it is a sign of the times; the demand for learning piano tuning will increase as there become less and less tuners in the market because of the drop in demand and the increased difficulty in making a living, notwithstanding the brilliant technicians out there. (We can't all be brilliant), and people in certain areas will have to pay high prices to tune their kid's piano, plus schools like CSPT close.

People will be forced to learn from individual technicians but it is not as easy as you seem to think Gadzar. Your style is not the only style. To be a good teacher, you need to be able to teach all types of learners, not just those who learn like you. I will often change styles and use some of the techniques you mention, if and only if the student will benefit, not by default like you are suggesting. My method by default promises exceptional accuracy if mastered. That's why it is the first method introduced. I give my students the best chance at exceptional success.

I think we've exhausted this subject. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify a subject so close to my heart.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (08/23/14 11:06 AM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2318865 - 08/23/14 11:12 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: A443]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1271
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: A443
Mark Cerisano, RPT, your mistake was in titling: the "see" and "measure" part is confusing people. Yes that is possible, and yes that is awesome too, but the exciting part for pedagogy is the hearing part. That is what is really helpful in the learning process--especially when done with live feedback.

One could use a EQ, a microphone, and some earbuds to tune a piano while hearing the boost in audible beats. This is a great exercise: not only can the beating be turned up, but they can also be turned down to further judge perception--and/or to shift the attention to a different part of the tone for alternative ways of perceiving tuning/tone.


I am in talks with a audio manufacturer to develop a unit like this. I have tested and confirmed it works, in real-time. I use a tuneable audio filter manufactured for the Ham Radio market.

I really like your EQ suggestion (basically the same thing as the tuneable audio filter.). I am looking for an app to do that but so far no luck.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2318919 - 08/23/14 02:12 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1754
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

IMO, it is impossible to learn piano tuning in 20 hours as you pretend in your course.

Ok mister, there you've gone too far. I can not stand it when others make their own inferences about what I do, in order to throw it back in my face to make me look stupid or incompetent, for their own selfish and hurtful reasons. You're not the only person who has done this to me. (I have not, never did, and will never say Bach created ET)

Read my webpage. No person can learn to tune a piano in 20 hours.




Stop there! I never lie! I could never put words in your mouth!

If I say you have said something it's because you did it!

Here it is:

I just can't get my head around temperament...

For easy, I reproduce here what you have said in the above thread:

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT


I have taught accomplished musicians how to tune a piano to a reasonable level in one week.



How many hours??
15? 30? 21? 35?


Thank you,
Herr Weiss



20

_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com



So yes, you did it. You have said you can teach piano tuning in 20 hours. It was not me who said that. It was you.

If that makes you look stupid or incompetent... I don't know. Answer to yourself, how do you think you look like?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2318934 - 08/23/14 02:52 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Gadzar]
Hakki Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2585
Originally Posted By: Gadzar


So yes, you did it. You have said you can teach piano tuning in 20 hours. It was not me who said that. It was you.

If that makes you look stupid or incompetent... I don't know. Answer to yourself, how do you think you look like?



None of the above, maybe just someone with not a strong memory.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2318943 - 08/23/14 03:17 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Hakki]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1754
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: Gadzar


So yes, you did it. You have said you can teach piano tuning in 20 hours. It was not me who said that. It was you.

If that makes you look stupid or incompetent... I don't know. Answer to yourself, how do you think you look like?



None of the above, maybe just someone with not a strong memory.


This is adressed to Hakki, definitely not to Mark:

Not a strong memory?

Only dishonest people have to remember what they say.



Edited by Gadzar (08/23/14 03:44 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2319001 - 08/23/14 07:17 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2601
Loc: Not in Texas
OK, the posts here are getting overly personal and insulting. Either discuss the topic at hand or the thread will be closed.
_________________________
Greg

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#2319020 - 08/23/14 08:33 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1317
Loc: Manywheres
I'd love to see this thread continue...

A very simple app that had two adjustments (i.e., the frequency location and the volume)--where one could hear the piano being tuned through earbuds on the iMachine--that would be super sweet! If it were one of those free apps, then even better.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2319041 - 08/23/14 09:36 PM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1271
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Thank you BB.

Just to put Gadzar at ease, students that achieve that level after one week are rare. I never claim that anyone can do that. That would be foolish.

A443. I created a video to show how I use a device exactly like to one you imagine. I made it private. Only for the owner of the business who makes the unit. He was asking how I use it. Because of your kind words and interest, I am making it public. I will make a new thread. But here is the link as well.

http://howtotunepianos.com/using-a-tuneable-audio-filter-to-hear-beats/
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2319085 - 08/24/14 01:34 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Gadzar]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1754
Loc: Mexico City
All I want is to be free to say what I think.

And when I did it here I was treated as a liar by Mark Cerisano.

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

IMO, it is impossible to learn piano tuning in 20 hours as you pretend in your course.

Ok mister, there you've gone too far. I can not stand it when others make their own inferences about what I do, in order to throw it back in my face to make me look stupid or incompetent, for their own selfish and hurtful reasons. You're not the only person who has done this to me. (I have not, never did, and will never say Bach created ET)

Read my webpage. No person can learn to tune a piano in 20 hours.




Well, as I have showed earlier in this thread I didn't lie. Mark Cerisano has said he has trained people in 20 hours to tune a piano to a reasonable level. And by reasonable level he means "able to pass the PTG exam".

Now he says

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Thank you BB.

Just to put Gadzar at ease, students that achieve that level after one week are rare. I never claim that anyone can do that. That would be foolish.


I don't need you to put me at ease.

As I said before I never lie and all I want is the freedom to say what I think.

Yes, it is foolish to think that in 20 hours someone is going to learn to tune a piano. That's what I said in the first place. You don't like to be confronted to your own words.

And about this thread I think that using a filter to better hear beats is just a way to turn around the point. Your goal is to train the students to hear beats, isn't it?

There are tons of exercises designed to do that. Why doing exercises? Just because there are students that need them to learn. If someone can learn without exercises, good for him, he has not to do the exercises.

If you give the students a electronic filter to estimate beat rates, that's exactly what they are going to use to tune. They are not going to hear at the actual sound produced by the piano.

Have they learned to tune a piano by ear?

Well, I guess yes... by ear, but using an electronic filter...

Then why not teach them to tune with an ETD? It's visual, but it is faster to learn and very accurate.

It was you who said that some of your students finish your course without being able to hear beats in RBIs. That means they can not tune pianos! But they've paid you to learn!

It is your responsability to teach them! You are charging them for this! And there is no other way around than making them hear those RBIs.

They can't learn to swim if they don't plunge into the water. They can't learn to hear beats if they don't hear at the piano. Make them do a bunch of exercises on fast beating intervals until they've got it! If doing these exercises implies to extend the course over 20 hours, then do it. You can adjust your fees.

What you can't do is continue to charge people without teaching them to tune!


Just my opinion.

From a self made piano tuner, mechanical engineer, amateur pianist.



Edited by Gadzar (08/24/14 01:52 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2319113 - 08/24/14 04:54 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7563
Loc: France
hi Mark, cool demo on Audacity .

Your blog is nicely presented.
Could not refrain to see in the "preferred questions" : " how much should I charge? " I hope you answer" nothing "! (until efficient, after 20 hours? )

I see beats in their whole, as they do not really add to the music played, not as beats but more as" activity". So no need to put the eyes left up, and you can tune while having a conversation with someone.
It works with memory, I assume. Not a way to learn probably but it could contain something useful.


Edited by Olek (08/24/14 05:10 AM)

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#2319118 - 08/24/14 05:26 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1754
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT

Read my webpage. No person can learn to tune a piano in 20 hours.



Done!

From your page (highlights are mine):


Why Me?

Here are some great reasons to take these courses from me and not someone else:

1. I am a trained educator and professional technician with an engineering degree.

2. I have been teaching piano technology since 2005.

3. I have continually modified the course so it is now super charged with highly efficient techniques and methods to kick start your education if you are a beginner, or quickly advance your skills if you are already a technician.

4. I have received numerous accolades for my exceptional teaching style. Read here

5. Real time instruction means I can adapt the course content to fit your personal style, level, and ability, and I do it all the time.

6. Each course is 20 hours long; long enough to find out if this is for you, not so long that it drains your pocketbook.

Course Schedule – Summer 2014
If you are thinking of taking a course in tuning or repairing pianos, here are your options for this summer 2014:

1. Montreal, Quebec, Canada, July 21 – 25
Basic Tuning: 8am – 12pm
Basic Repair: 1pm – 5pm

2. Montreal, July 28 – Aug 1
Advanced Tuning 1: 8am – 12pm
Advanced Tuning 2: 1pm – 5pm

3. Toronto, Ontario, Canada, August 25 – 29
Basic Tuning: 8am – 12pm
Basic Repair: 1pm – 5pm

4. Online Live Courses
20 hours
at your convenience, with or without other students.

Contact Me Now!

Contact Me immediately if you are interested. I only take a maximum of six students and I already have some spots filled for this summer.

Stay Tuned!

Mark


May 31st, 2014 Lessons on How to Tune Pianos 8 Comments »
Make Your Request Now!



From your previous post in this thread:

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Thank you BB.

Just to put Gadzar at ease, students that achieve that level after one week are rare. I never claim that anyone can do that. That would be foolish.


From

I just can't get my head around temperament

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I have taught accomplished musicians how to tune a piano to a reasonable level in one week.


Originally Posted By: adamp88
Define "reasonable level" please.


Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano
Able to pass the RPT exam, in my opinion. They aren't tested. Granted, it's on one piano that they get used to the whole week, but it can be done. Also, note that these were accomplished musicians.


Are you kidding?

Is this for real?

Your page is in the internet! Available to all the world. You have a calendar of 20 hour courses, tuning and repair courses. You offer also on line courses 20 hours long.

In your page you don't say a word about courses been adressed to accomplished musicians! And are accomplished musicians supposed to become good technicians? What if an accomplished musician can´t hear beats in RBIs?


Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Read my webpage. No person can learn to tune a piano in 20 hours.


Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I never claim that anyone can do that. That would be foolish.


I can't believe my eyes!

Again, are you kidding?

Is this for real?

If your students read this posts here in PW, what are going you to say to them?.







Edited by Gadzar (08/24/14 05:28 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2319128 - 08/24/14 06:21 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 718
Loc: England
For goodness sake .... if you want to squabble do it via private messaging. It does nothing but make you appear childish. We should all be capable of drawing our own conclusions from information gleened through posts and information on advertised web sites .... there's no benefit from airing those views in public .... going private would be a much better option.
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2319135 - 08/24/14 07:04 AM Re: Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats. [Re: Gadzar]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1317
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
If you give the students a electronic filter to estimate beat rates, that's exactly what they are going to use to tune. They are not going to hear at the actual sound produced by the piano.
Gadzar, it seems you've made the issue too personal, which apparently has clouded your judgment.

The filter would not be used like you apparently envision the use of an ETD; the filter is a teaching aid to point to a specific acoustic event--much like a laser pointer for sound, or a highlighter for the written word. I doubt that the device would be used by a student for more than a few hours total (i.e., in their entire lifetime).

One doesn't use this device to tune beat rates that are otherwise hard to hear--one use this device to know if one is listening at the right part of the sound to hear the event. This is a way to train your brain to listen to a specific portion of the sound.

Before one can imitate,
one must learn how to observe.
crazy bah
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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