Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Members Recordings - Pianist Corner Ok, here I go! Deep breath....Brahms 118/2

Ok, so here is me sticking my neck out. I've posted one or two little things here and there, but this is the first time since last year that I'm daring to post something from start to finish. It's the longest thing I've ever posted. By far.

But because I am about to start my second year of piano, I thought maybe it would be a good time to solicit some insight as I look ahead to this year and what I hope to accomplish in it.

This particular piece (ok, this particular person, too) suffers from both an overall lack of technical skill and performance anxiety. An audience, be it my teacher, or even just a camera, appears to commandeer enough of my attention that I can't focus on everything I need to focus on, and overall execution suffers. I make some ridiculous errors in here I never make. So one reason for posting is that I want to work being more willing to make and post recordings this year. I always benefit from insight but I am just so reluctant. It's hard enough to risk criticism, but I can hardly stand to listen to myself play, so...it's a hurdle.

At any rate, at my level, I don't have any focus to spare. Because even if I were somehow to be entirely relieved of the pressure of being recorded or listened to, too much still requires active concentration to execute properly. And even if I stay perfectly focused, I still have those aforementioned technical deficits--many more than even perfect focus can fix at the moment.

Phrasing is off. Rubato and tempo is awkward as I drop the marionette string at times to focus on something else. Dynamics are maddeningly inconsistent. The head, it swims: Don't rush, sit up, drop your shoulder, stop seizing your wrist...hey, lead-foot, clear the pedal already, you forgot all about it half a measure ago!

I suppose it would be fine if I didn't really hear how I sound. But I do. I very much hear every deficit. I sometimes wish I were one of those mediocre pianists who absolutely are dead convinced they are spectacular and nothing, and nobody can convince them otherwise. Happiness is still happiness. I, on the other hand, am well aware of my mediocrity and get no pleasure from it! I am, however, happy to work hard to improve it.

I know I can't fix it all in this one piece. But to the extent anybody has some insight for me for where to go with this piece that feels reasonably achievable for someone of my level, I'm all ears.

Second year in piano...

And you're playing the Brahms 118/2...

Come on... (I did listen).

This is AWESOME! YOU HEAR ME!??!?! DO I HAVE TO GO LOUDER?!?!? AWESOME!

Yes, you're right about the things you mention, but it's only your 2nd year, right? The one thing I would suggest is that besides these rather large pieces (4 pages, 6-7 minutes), try many smaller ones to build up... everything...

But it's awesome!

I realize now that I did not mention (I feel like I've said it a lot so I didn't want to put too fine a point on it) that I'm an adult returner. I did take lessons as a child--ten years of them, in fact. I didn't make the best use of those ten years, however, I would not want to misrepresent myself as having started from scratch a year ago.

BUT, it is true that I did not touch a piano for almost 25 years and when I returned a year ago I was so rusty I could not play two octaves in c major with both hands together without running out of fingers or getting out of sync. That's certainly true, and was really quite scary for me at the time.

Edited to add: Thank you very much for the "AWESOME!" It does mean a lot, even though you might have used fewer capital letters if you were aware I was not a total beginner.

Well... I might of gone a tiny bit less enthusiastic, but the point remains: This is hard piece and it takes much more than "just technique" to make it work, so you're "growing" up musically. And it does show, even if right now it's a bit "stale".

And I'm running out of adjectives, plus I have to get back to work, but in any case it's great that you're exposing yourself to us. I really hope that you'll keep doing that, and we will keep encouraging you and others to love piano as much as you (already) do.

See what I mean by AWESOME now?

Yes, thank you!

I am trying to play a variety of pieces, especially those of shorter length. You're right that it is incredibly useful. I worked through most of Burgmuller Op. 100 last year, and then did the first 18 of the Schumann Album for the Young Op. 68.

Now my teacher has me doing a Mazurka as a "short format" piece and I'm not sure what we'll do next in that genre. I spent a good deal of the latter half of the year preparing for a chamber workshop and almost got on top of the Shostakovich second trio. I spent an inhuman amount of time on it. I was actually...dare I say...happy with some fairly big chunks of it. Then I had the piece changed on me to another trio that was somewhat technically easier, but I only had 5 weeks to pull it together and I can't put 15 minutes of music from nothing in 5 weeks at my level. I panicked and pushed it and ended up stagnated with some bad tension and a nice hand injury to boot.

I was also working on Rachmaninoff C# minor prelude at the same time, and that was incredibly challenging to me as well. Both pieces kind of collided to do something awful to my thumb. I dropped them both cold turkey (performed only the first and third movement of the trio) but need to finish the prelude because it's...not done and that bothers me.

Maybe when the Brahms is done I'll spend a month or so to finish the Rachmaninoff so I can get it off my mind. I intend to return to all of them as I make progress (I hope I continue to), but I still don't want to say I left it without finishing it to my current best ability.

The Bach is not in good shape. Well, if I take out the ornaments, it's coming together, but I cannot stop seizing up for the trills. And any tension in Bach is a game ender.

But it's necessary to work through. All the consistency and control I crave in the Brahms is likely going to be learned in the Bach.

Wow... First of all, you have to realize that this piece is VERY DIFFICULT! It has a lot of thick textures that have to be played relatively quickly with a lot of colour, so it's not easy at all to pull off.

Having said that, YOU DID A GREAT JOB! I know what you mean about performance anxiety; I'm the master on the subject, and even with that nervousness and pressure you still portrayed a beautiful image. I know that when you're not recording you do even better. It happens to most of us, and to a different extent. I would say that both of us are on the higher end of the scale when to it comes to it.

Now, back to the piece :P Without a doubt you know it much more than I do, but a couple of (minor and probably undesired) suggestions that i thought about (just my own opinion/ideas/interpretation), were:
- The part where the LH starts playing triplets and you have 2 against 3 going on. I would say just tone down the LH a little and try to make the notes with the stems up just slightly stick out more than the rest of the LH
- Try to add a bit of variety (don't ask me how :P) when you play exact repetitions or very similar repetitions of passages. This could be very subtle, like phrasing, voicing, dynamics, maybe articulation etc.

Remember those are just a couple of (probably lousy) suggestions to just think about if you like them. Now that you have the pieces in your hands and you play it beautifully, you can experiment with different interpretations and try to play it differently and see what you like (If you haven't already). Again, AMAZING job on 118/2 and keep the recordings coming!

Those are not lousy suggestions! I am not entirely certain what the best thing to do is with the voicing in that 2 over 3 section. I do know that I absolutely love that inner voice. I can't consistently manage the proportions between all three lines there.

The same goes for first section. There are four obvious "repetitions" of the same idea, in two broad big phrases. In addition to not being sure exactly how I want to hear them all fit together, I struggle to have the control to execute that in a manner that makes sense. The second big phrase clearly is more contemplative than the first, and it adds that additional inner voice that makes bringing out all that expressiveness so difficult for me. It starts to feel pendulous to me.

By the time I hit big phrase ends, or section ends, I'm so overwhelmed with detail that I'm not quite sure where I came from, and so I can't bring it home naturally. I either grind to a halt with an overly drawn out rit, or I smash headlong into the next phrase without letting everything breathe.

There's a part where the melody gets flipped upside down starting with a huge chord that takes up half the keyboard (I don't have the score in front of me, but it's that big "ahhh, the sun comes out" moment in there over a few bars) and in addition to having technical issues with control to execute it, I'm actually not sure how to manage all that there.

The last section, in which one of the big phrases from the beginning return, I'm struggling with the right expression and rubato there. I'd like anybody's opinion on it. In this recording, I start to self-destruct there in general, but that's actually not a problem I generally have. I have no idea why I make SO many errors there but I wasn't about to re-record it. But even when I'm not imploding, note-wise, I can't quite figure out how to approach it.

I'd also like some insight on what's RIGHT in there, if anything. Not because I'm fishing for compliments, but because I often second guess myself and am prone to throwing the baby out with the bathwater in an attempt to fix something.

Insight #1: Because you *do* hear your deficits, you are not a mediocre pianist, nor will you be. It's kind of like having a conscience. If you get pangs of guilt for having done something wrong, it means you still have a heart and there is hope. Similarly, being acutely aware of deficits in a piece means you are paying attention to your own artistic and technical integrity, and that will bear fruit as you progress. It is important, though, to not feel guilty if you make mistakes when playing. Have you ever heard the expression, "Strive for perfection, settle for excellence"? I think both of those are goals, not a states of being. And being able to monitor your feelings *about* your feelings regarding your playing (separate from investing, infusing, and monitoring a whole other universe of feeling into what it is that you are striving to communicate with your playing) is healthy. (Also, be careful how you define "perfection." I think we all could use a few less "crazy-makers" in our lives. )

Insight #2: You're thinking too hard about it. Relax and trust yourself to find the details with your fingers as they come to you while playing instead of trying so hard to make them happen. Here, you are striving to shape sounds in the air, not body motions through space. I think you are thinking too much like a dancer when you play. Let it inform your technique where it applies, yes! , but I would suggest to not let it rule your music making.

Insight #3: Sleep on it. Let it ripen. Put it aside for a day, a week, or a month and come back to it. Be amazed at what a little subconscious re-wiring will do...

I enjoyed listening to this, TS. It's a fave. I wish I could play it! Maybe someday...

More Brahms!!!

--Andy

Insight #4: Let Brahms be Brahms. There is so much to appreciate in the genius of his compositions, but if you try too hard to bring it out, it loses its Brahms-i-ness. Let "Brahms" come to you as you play it. (See "Insight #2)



You mean, like all of those places where you let Brahms be Brahms? (0:09 to 0:30, for example? Or, 1:10 to 1:30? Or, 1:36 to 1:50? Should I go on? 5:04 to 5:15 -- (5:10!!! ) How do I love your Brahms? Let me count the ways...)

Overthink it? What, me?

Can't be!

Seriously, though, I really oscillate between wondering if I'm overthinking or underthinking. I know there is a big gap between what I'm doing and what I ought to be doing. Sometimes that is fixed by getting extremely detail-oriented. Sometimes it's fixed by simply letting go. The trick is knowing which one is going to work.

In the absence of clearly knowing how to fix something, I will drill down to microscopic level rather than "go macro" and let things come as they come. This works very well in all non-artistic pursuits. There isn't a level of detail to which I cannot slow down and focus on in my professional life. In fact, my job is to be able to glean enormous amounts of arcane detail and make sense of it. I do this very well. There is no problem that isn't solved by digging just a little further into the detail, so that's what I do. If I were to take any aspect of what I do and solve a problem by simply backing away from thinking about it so hard, well, I have yet to encounter a situation in which that would have been the wiser choice. I've seen it happen; it's usually called malpractice. Others who work with me but don't do what I do may do just that, but they do it because I am the one who continues to stay mired in the details.

So I'm not surprised I take this approach to piano. And I'm not wrong, for the most part. I think it's safe to say that detail and technique are under-appreciated, not over-appreciated in music. There's a reason it takes years and years to develop. And this development is not mindless. Ruthless self-editing is a required element of getting to a real level of mastery.

I've spent my life listening to music. I know what it does for me and how it makes me feel. I also spent a lot of years trying to make music, and enjoyed it. I just was too immature to put it all together before I chucked it. Look, I could just continue to listen to it and continue to enjoy the deep connection I have with it. But something is making me want to MAKE it. I spent a lot of years making myself think I had no right to go back to it, and/or such a thing would be pointless and unsuccessful. That the ship had sailed and my relationship to music ought to remain as a listener only. But that desire never went away, and I finally capitulated to it last year.

So, my problem is not feeling it. My problem is getting me to the point where I can create what I want to create. And it's tough. I'm not there yet. Not even close. I have often likened this process to having an empty toolbox. You want to create something amazing. You have the image in your head. You can see it. You can almost touch it and feel it. But you can't make it because your toolbox is empty. As you add tools, you can start creating rough versions of things, but everything is blunt. You have to work and work until your toolbox is bursting with tools and only then are you free to create whatever it is you want to create because the right tool is instantly in your hand.

I have to fill my toolbox. Every now and again, a new tool magically plonks into the box. And I welcome that tool. But I also know I need twenty more, just like it, in varying sizes. And plenty of other tools that do other things.

Great job. I played this piece 2 years ago and regret not making a final video. I have a practice video which made me realize that opening section came out too loud (you do not have problem. Your opening is very graceful) and I realized that I did not play the section where repeats are (b section?, sorry don't have the score in front) as I intended. There are different school of thoughts there. Some advocate repeats played differently, like first time emphasize melody in the right hand and second time around emphasize left hand. I liked both ways but I decided to play differently second time because loved the left hand notes goes like aching heart beat. Also I tend to be a banger if I don't watch out. I wanted to provide contrast there with incredibly soft right hand and slightly emphasized melody in the left. You have natural grace, and could do either. Do listen to the recording by our forum member Pogo. Her repeats did not overly emphasize the left hand yet it is exquisite. Hers is one of the best I heard of the piece played.

Given the comments in your opening post on this thread, I understand that it takes considerable bravery to expose yourself to the public in this fashion. For that, I commend you. I could, as I often do, make lots of comments on details, both musical and technical, but you are probably aware of them without my pointing them out, and some have done so already.

One thing that no one has yet mentioned is the fact that your hands often completely leave the keyboard, accompanied by much "flopping" of the wrist which, I think, is not at all necessary. It's good that your wrist appears to be relaxed, but such physical mannerism really detracts from developing a real legato in your playing. Learn to "crawl" along the keys, keeping your wrist still without letting it get stiff, and holding notes for their full value as much as possible. At the end of a phrase, while there needs to be a "breath," it's not necessary to lift your hands off the keys to the extent that you do.

Try this : turn off the sound and watch your hands to see how extensively you actually do this and then ask yourself what musical purpose it serves.

Regards,

I would still welcome them--I value your opinion and often it is helpful to hear the same thing said differently by someone else.



Entirely agreed. I'm having trouble finding how to fix this problem. The awkward wrist thing is my ongoing attempt to fix this problem, from a Burgmuller piece 10 months ago. I don't know why my right arm won't submit. My left arm got with the program pretty quickly, but something is just taking a lot of time to settle in with my right arm and wrist:



I still play with a fairly frozen right wrist UNLESS I take Great Exaggerated Pains not to do it. Leaving the keyboard so high is causing other problems, I totally agree. When I need to change something fundamental, it often helps to overcorrect and then hone. But here I'm not really getting where I need to be and I can't figure out why yet.

The other thing I should point out that the big hand lift wrist bend phrasing thing is a "thing" with my teacher. The kids she teach do a lot of very deliberate wrist lifts and hand motions in early phrasing.

She had me doing a lot of that in the beginning when I seemed glued to the keyboard and not breathing at all. Of course, I'm now getting a lot of correction the other way, but let's just say that the first couple of months, she spent a lot of time saying "lift! LIFT!"

Now I hear a lot of, "closer. Smaller. You're losing your connection. Use your wrist more pragmatically. You're lifting AND staying frozen. What is that?"

So it sounds like the exaggerated movements you added aren't fixing the problem, which means they are just masking it. What I saw in the Burgmuller video showed a problem with not releasing after playing the notes, especially on those phrases which ended with you playing the 4th or 5th finger. You play the 5th finger, and nothing moves afterwards. The two-note slurs up to that point look wonderful, but when you get to the 5th is where the problem is. You can hear it in the sound too. It also looks like to me that you are pressing down with your arm after you hit the notes so that it would be impossible to relax your wrist. Am I way off base here?

TS, I was thinking about this thread today and remembered a couple of links where I read some things about this piece. This first one is from Graham Fitch's website, lots of great info there, and I remember reading this bit about 118/2 and telling myself to go back to it if (when, actually) I start learning this piece:

http://www.practisingthepiano.com/the-myth-of-the-instant-fix/

And this is a video by Josh Wright (who I really appreciate and admire; he has like 100 videos which I've watched and they help with all kind of practicing strategies, and he's been x10000 more helpful than my teachers whose only answers to questions is "practice" never actually telling you how). It's part of a new series, the first section (Youtube video) is free, but the remaining 50 or so minutes have to be purchased, but I think it's only like $5, and I promise you it'll be worth it. I haven't bought it yet, but I will DEFINITELY do that when I start the piece. I urge you to check out his channel as well, lots of great insight and knowledge!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFlhFX46u7Q

Tell me what you think of them!

Probably not off base at all. I can tell you that I must be holding a lot of weight or tension in there because my forearm and wrist feel fatigued. I also still sometimes hold my thumb fixed and triggered and held all the way up through my forearm.

Scales are helping me more than major pieces where the stress of having to do so many things at once and still make it sound gorgeous make the problem worse. My attempt to control my sound, and hence my movements seem to make me want to fix/seize in certain positions. My brain seems to think it will reduce inaccuracy, but of course it does nothing of the sort.

My teacher also noticed that I will do other things, like if I have to play way up the keyboard, I will lean/shift appropriately to get there, but then I stay leaned, even when I'm back to center. As the pressure to do something correctly mounts, I get more and more rigid. During my Bach, while it looked like I was sitting at the piano, I was perched at the piano. I was sitting suspended: quads totally engaged, glutes held, and my feet were not quite touching the floor. I think you could have lifted me off the piano in a seated position and I'd not have moved. You couldn't quite tell it was happening but my teacher, after having sort of taken stock of what was going on as she does during a lesson went, "wait a second, are your feet actually on the floor?" And no, no they weren't. I had no earthly idea.

I have good posture, but the more stressed out I get, I just recruit all sorts of useless effort from unnecessary muscles. It's hard to tell because I'm not slouching. I'm very good at using every last ounce of my strength to hold something without looking like I'm doing it.

Well, for $5, I can certainly splurge on an hour of somebody exploring learning this piece in depth.

In fact, I did splurge. It's downloading now. Thanks!

I think you are on to something here and it will be very rewarding.

I really appreciate your efforts here, especially because I recently went through the agony of trying to record this piece. It's never going to go exactly as planned or exactly as you hear in your head. In a way it is not helpful to hold yourself to this limitation because I think it can be seen as too limiting to your performance. In order to play freely and with passion you need to allow yourself to deviate from your perfect plan.

This has been my focus in performance for the past year or so. I noticed, with some help of others here mostly, that my recordings usually sound too effortful and detail-oriented. As you increase your technical proficiency in this piece you will become more able to stop thinking so much. All that thinking will happen as you plan and practice and then you can let go of it when you perform. I guess probably a little early at this point in the piece's progress but it might be worth thinking about.

Not sure if it's just me but the recording sounds a little distant. What kind of equipment are you using?

I'm thinking of maybe posting multiple takes of the same piece. I think I'd feel less pressure to make one take be everything I need it to be if I felt freer to post several and maybe together they say something about what I can do.

When I'm better, I can maybe hope to play to perform rather than reflect.

As for your question about the equipment, it's a Zoom H4n and a Canon SLR with a 18-55mm f/2.8 lens. The Zoom is on a mic level of 20 and about two feet from the keyboard off my shoulder, more or less where the camera is. I didn't fuss to much with it. I was afraid I'd lose my nerve, so I just went for it.