Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2320407 - 08/26/14 10:48 PM Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally.
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I would also appreciate any feedback by the pros. Bugs, and the like.

Here is the link:

http://howtotunepianos.com/video-lessons/test-yourself-on-tuning-a4-using-the-f2-check-note/

Have fun.

(See if you can find some of my trickiness.)


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (08/26/14 10:58 PM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#2320441 - 08/27/14 12:38 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Very nice test!

I would set A4 for the PTG test by using two (digital) forks, one at A=444 and one at A=436 and tune A4 equal beating. I was informed this would be acceptable for the test.

Kees

Top
#2320444 - 08/27/14 12:46 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Bosendorff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 278
Yay, got 100% the first time. Fun easy little test.

Top
#2320447 - 08/27/14 12:52 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: DoelKees]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Very nice test!

I would set A4 for the PTG test by using two (digital) forks, one at A=444 and one at A=436 and tune A4 equal beating. I was informed this would be acceptable for the test.

Kees


Very nice. That would serve to temper the temperature effect.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2320473 - 08/27/14 03:34 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2007
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Ditto, a nice little test!
And ditto, I managed to get 100% first-time around.

Re. trickiness: On one occasion, I got the impression that A4 wasn't raised, but lowered. On another occasion, I got the impression that A4 wasn't lowered, but left unchanged.

A humble comment from a beginner about choosing a suitable beat speed. I normally set F2 significantly sharper than the typical ET 7 bps, to make it easier for myself. Aiming for 1c accuracy, I need to get the two beat speeds within bps. I find it much easier to distinguish, say, 3 from 3 from 3 bps, or even better, 2 from 2 from 2 bps, than to distinguish 7 from 7 from 7 bps.

The slower the beat, the easier it is (for me) to pick out a small difference.

Just my 0.9 cents...
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2320567 - 08/27/14 09:35 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
I know my opinion is not so well appreciated by you Mark, but as you asked for, here it is:

First time I did the test: 48%. I did not understand what I was suposed to do! My fault. I believed I were asked to say if A4 was flat or sharp, then I realised that A4 was changing as I raised or lower it, I was lost in space, so I got it all wrong.

Second time: 100%, I understood I was tuning.


My opinion on the test: good test but it is some how artificial. That is not the way I tune A4.

In this test we retune A4, without listening to it! And after we have retuned it, we listen. I never do that when tuning! I never tune or retune a note without listening to it or to an interval that includes the note I am tuning.

When I am tuning I always play A4 with the fork while I am moving the tuning hammer, until it sounds good, then I test with F2. If it's not good enough then I retune A4, again by listening with F2 while I move the tuning pin. In verticals, with no sostenuto, I use a little screwdriver to lift the F2 damper, so I can play F2 with my right hand, then play A4 with my right hand and move the tuning hammer with my left hand (I am left handed), hearing how the beat rate changes. In a grand I use the sostenuto pedal to keep F2 sounding while I play A4 and tune with my left hand.

In other words, when I move the tuning pin I am always hearing at A4, with the fork or with F2. So I can hear how the beat rate changes.

In this test we have not this kind of moving (changing) beat rate feedback.

Do you remember my analogy with the snake? The snake is camouflaged and we can not see it... until it moves.

So I hear at the beats with the fork or with F2 while A4 is moving.

And, like Mark R., I also like to retune F2 sharper to have a slower beat rate.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2320574 - 08/27/14 09:52 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 357
Loc: UK
The best I can do is 9cents sharp. However I only used the last section of the video where the fork and the note are played. Reason: I can not make head or tail of the use of the lower sounds!

Top
#2320647 - 08/27/14 12:30 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2566
Got 100% the first time.

However, unfortunately, the wording is poor, unfocused, with cumbersome needless differential equations and weird nomenclature.

Here is how Bill Bremmer explains it:

"Sound the A-440 pitch source, a tuning fork or audible electronic tone and try to match the A4 string to it exactly, no beats.

When satisfied with that, sound the note F2 and A4 together. You may use the Sostenuto pedal to hold these two dampers open. (If the piano has no Sostenuto pedal, you may use the damper pedal in the same way as the Sostenuto, sound the notes first, then press the pedal).

Listen to the rapid beat between F2 and A4. Make sure, first of all, that the F2-A4 interval is a wide M17th. If you are unsure, adjust the F2 until the F2-A4 Major 17th (M17th) is beatless and then flatten F2 until the M17th has a very rapid but still discernable beat. Now compare that rapid beat with the beating between F2 and your pitch source. If they seem exactly the same, it proves that A4 is tuned perfectly to the pitch source.

If there is a difference, some adjustment must be made.
If you hear a slight discrepancy, all you have to do is adjust your A4 up or down by the slightest amount to make the F2-A4 test match exactly. If the piano's F2-A4 is slightly faster than the piano/pitch source F2-A4, the piano's A4 is slightly sharp and conversely, if the piano's F2-A4 is slightly slower than the piano/pitch source F2-A4, the piano's A4 is slightly flat.

At the PTG Tuning Exam, you are allowed 5 minutes for this procedure but luckily, if you should fail, you will be given a second chance. The tolerance is very small and the rules are strict. Even just one full beat per second is a failing score. In many circumstances, an absolutely perfect A4 at 440 may not be required but in high profile circumstances such as live concerts or recordings, it is and that is why the Exam places such high importance on it."


Hope that helps.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

Top
#2320686 - 08/27/14 01:49 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Gadzar, your comments are always appreciated; they are more helpful than if you agreed with everything I said.

The way you tune, I call "Direct Tuning", listening directly to the interval being tuned. The way the program is set up, I call "Indirect Tuning", listening to other intervals in order to make a judgement on the quality of the interval being tuned.

So, if you tune A4 directly, then listen indirectly and find it needs to be improved, the implication is that indirect tuning is more accurate, in that single example, anyway.

Here is how I use Direct Tuning: (Not movable direct tuning like you do, but immovable. I.e. listening to the interval directly after it has been moved.)

Set the note using check notes so the beats agree with some criteria. (F2A4 = F2Fork, in this case.)
Then play A4Fork. The sound of the direct interval must be beatless. Not just beatless, but sound like a single string.
If it does not sound like the single string, then you were wrong when you said F2A4 = F2Fork. Go back and re-listen.

It is this re-listening, determined by the student, using my method without me there, that guides the student toward improving their beat speed recognition and beat speed difference sensitivity, independently, after my instruction, without me there.

Also, direct tuning uses what I call Conceptual Comparison, that is, comparing the sound you hear from the piano, to the concept of the sound you are striving for, that exists only in your head.

Conceptual Comparison can be very fast and natural. The problem is, it takes very long to develop the concepts; the idea of what sounds good.

Comparing two actual physical sounds and deciding where the pitch should be from their relationship, I call Direct Comparison. (Internal Direct = the piano tells you. External Direct = another source tells you.)

Direct Comparison is better for a student than Conceptual Comparison, IMHO. (They may not even have a concept yet.)

Indirect Tuning (using checks) seems more accurate to me, especially when using my bisecting window temperament sequence, in my experience.

When tuning A4 to the fork directly, the window is "this sounds too flat" and "this sounds to sharp".

The Bisecting Window temperament sequence has more objective criteria.

Even the F2 test is not objective. "This sounds too fast" and "this sounds too slow". Abstractly speaking, we can never get F2A4 to equal F2Fork.

Also, you can't use listen to the interval directly while changing it, with the Double String Unison method.
High accuracy can be obtained when using check notes, producing great sounding intervals, which the student creates themselves, then listens to, all without me there.

It is this listening that is training their concept of what a good interval sounds like, so then they have the choice of tuning your way after that, if they want.

They can't do that until the have developed the concept.

Double string unison and high accuracy techniques allow them to create great intervals, listen to them, and develop their concept faster than without, in my experience as a piano tuning instructor.

Thank you for sharing so precisely, how it is that you tune. It is a great resource for others reading.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2320742 - 08/27/14 04:45 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
High accuracy can be obtained when using check notes, producing great sounding intervals, which the student creates themselves, then listens to, all without me there.

It is this listening that is training their concept of what a good interval sounds like, so then they have the choice of tuning your way after that, if they want.


What?!

I do use check notes!

You always misinterpret what I say, to "prove" your way is better than mine.

I was talking about your test. I don't even know how you tune A4.

All tuners I know, including myself, do use a test note, most of them F2 and some B1, to tune A4.

I give up to try to talk with you. You post your stuff and ask us our opinion. But if I suggest you another way then you say I am wrong!

So be it, you are always right and I am always wrong and your way is the best ever.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2320746 - 08/27/14 05:04 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
By your way, I meant listening to a single string A4 as it beats with the fork, and adjusting the A4 so you can hear "the snake in the grass", as opposed to my way which uses double string unison.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2320779 - 08/27/14 06:30 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark R.]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Ditto, a nice little test!
And ditto, I managed to get 100% first-time around.

Re. trickiness: On one occasion, I got the impression that A4 wasn't raised, but lowered. On another occasion, I got the impression that A4 wasn't lowered, but left unchanged.

A humble comment from a beginner about choosing a suitable beat speed. I normally set F2 significantly sharper than the typical ET 7 bps, to make it easier for myself. Aiming for 1c accuracy, I need to get the two beat speeds within bps. I find it much easier to distinguish, say, 3 from 3 from 3 bps, or even better, 2 from 2 from 2 bps, than to distinguish 7 from 7 from 7 bps.

The slower the beat, the easier it is (for me) to pick out a small difference.

Just my 0.9 cents...


Yes, I agree. But the problem with using narrow check intervals is that there is a danger that one of the intervals is narrow. So I usually advise tuning the check note pure with the previously tuned note, then flattening it so that the check interval produces a "healthy" beat; not too fast, not too slow.

Once the interval being tuned is very close to pure, the check note can be raised to improve sensitivity.

The F2Fork was about 7bps.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2320794 - 08/27/14 07:03 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
By your way, I meant listening to a single string A4 as it beats with the fork, and adjusting the A4 so you can hear "the snake in the grass", as opposed to my way which uses double string unison.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.


The misunderstandig continues.

All I said in my previous post was referring to your test. In your test you never mention DSU.

And when you retune a note with your DSU technique, you are hearing at two strings, aren't you?

So you are hearing a string changing its pitch while the other rests unchanged. And it is this little change in tone (this is not really a beat) that gives you a high accuracy, am I wrong?

That means you are "hearing the snake moving in the grass", just as I do when hearing a single string A4 with F2 or with the fork.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2320885 - 08/27/14 11:30 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Goof]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Goof
The best I can do is 9cents sharp. However I only used the last section of the video where the fork and the note are played. Reason: I can not make head or tail of the use of the lower sounds!


Is it that you do not hear the beating, or you can't hear the difference, or you don't understand how it works?

Using F2 is more accurate than just listening to A4Fork directly, as you saw. The trick is to develop your beat recognition and beat speed difference sensitivity.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2320982 - 08/28/14 06:03 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2007
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
But the problem with using narrow check intervals is that there is a danger that one of the intervals is narrow.
[..]
Once the interval being tuned is very close to pure, the check note can be raised to improve sensitivity.


Two points in response:

I always start by making A4 as beatless against the fork as possible, then do the fine-tuning against F2, and end off by double-checking that A4 is still beatless against the fork. In my opinion, even a beginner should be able to tune A4 directly to the fork within, say, 1 bps (4 cents). Once this has been achieved, it is not necessary to have the M17 beat at 7 bps, and to try and differentiate between 7 and 7 beats while fine-tuning. For me, "healthy" lies at about 2 to 3 bps. That's still sufficiently fast, because even if I've tuned A4 one bps flat, it will still beat at 1 to 2 bps (wide) with F2.

Secondly, I think the risk of getting one M17 wide and the other narrow, is almost non-existent, because then A4 and the fork would beat against one another at double the beat rate of the M17. So, even if the M17 beats really slowly with both A4 and the fork, say only 1 bps, then A4 against the fork would beat at 2 bps, which I'm sure a beginner would hear.

That's why I always end off, after having matched F2A4 with F2-fork, by re-checking that A4 is beatless against the fork. If both A4 and the fork beat against F2 at, say, 3 bps, but they are beatless against one another, then both M17s are definitely wide.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2321182 - 08/28/14 03:38 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Yes. I understand completely what you are saying. The risk is more in interval checks like the 6:3.

BTW, try this out next time you get a beatless A4Fork.

Play A4, then add the fork to it. Do it again. Repeat multiple times. Each time, listen to the loudness of the combined A4Fork. Try to get A4 and the fork at the same loudness. Listen individually to gauge how loud to play each.

You should hear a variation in the combined loudness. Sometimes the fork seems to add to the loudness. Sometimes; subtract.

What is happening:
When A4 and the fork are in phase, the peaks line up and produce a louder waveform. When they are 180 degrees out of phase, peaks line up with valleys and cancellation occurs.

The tone, louder or softer, continues to decay evenly. As you know, it is a unique sound, and it confirms that A4 = Fork.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2321277 - 08/28/14 08:31 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 199
Loc: Massachusetts
And we all know that B1 can be used in the same way as F2 to judge the accuracy of our A4 to the fork, right? Right?
_________________________
Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

Top
#2321286 - 08/28/14 09:07 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark R.]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
But the problem with using narrow check intervals is that there is a danger that one of the intervals is narrow.
[..]
Once the interval being tuned is very close to pure, the check note can be raised to improve sensitivity.


Two points in response:

I always start by making A4 as beatless against the fork as possible, then do the fine-tuning against F2, and end off by double-checking that A4 is still beatless against the fork. In my opinion, even a beginner should be able to tune A4 directly to the fork within, say, 1 bps (4 cents). Once this has been achieved, it is not necessary to have the M17 beat at 7 bps, and to try and differentiate between 7 and 7 beats while fine-tuning. For me, "healthy" lies at about 2 to 3 bps. That's still sufficiently fast, because even if I've tuned A4 one bps flat, it will still beat at 1 to 2 bps (wide) with F2.

Secondly, I think the risk of getting one M17 wide and the other narrow, is almost non-existent, because then A4 and the fork would beat against one another at double the beat rate of the M17. So, even if the M17 beats really slowly with both A4 and the fork, say only 1 bps, then A4 against the fork would beat at 2 bps, which I'm sure a beginner would hear.

That's why I always end off, after having matched F2A4 with F2-fork, by re-checking that A4 is beatless against the fork. If both A4 and the fork beat against F2 at, say, 3 bps, but they are beatless against one another, then both M17s are definitely wide.


Then again, a narrow M3 beating at the same speed as a wide M3 sounds very much different in quality and intonation and is immediately apparent to me at least.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

Top
#2321954 - 08/30/14 05:49 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 357
Loc: UK
frown 1.I can't hear the beats.
2. I do not understant how it works.
If I, on my piano, I play F2 and A4 together I hear a very strange "beat" . I would describe it like a "creepy" oo-wha ! About one per sec ?
Plainly A4 is on of the higher harmonics of F2 ??

I really wold appreciate your explanation. I do tune own piano and do repairs to same.

Top
#2321972 - 08/30/14 06:43 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
Mark Cerisano, RPT,

Here is a beginner asking to learn to hear beats in RBIs, let us see how good you are teaching him with your superior methods...


Edited by Gadzar (08/30/14 06:45 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2322010 - 08/30/14 08:43 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi Goof,

These are the possible reasons you can't hear a clear beat. Check them out and let me know if that helped:

1. Unisons at F2 and A4 are not clean. Try muting the strings to leave single strings.
2. F2A4 is close to pure. Lower F2 a bit.
3. The position of your head in the room and/or the orientation or your ears is such that A4 is being filtered. Try turning your head slowly and moving side to side slowly, some say minimum three feet. Try to listen for A4 beating to get louder or softer, and find the "sweet spot" where it is the loudest.
4. If you still have trouble, use Audacity to filter A4. Then at least you can "see" the beat, hear the way an experienced tuner hears, and re-listen to the piano and try to pick out that same sound.

Let me know how it goes. I am willing to have a short Skype call with you to help you out if you wish. PM me.

P.S. Do you use an ETD? Have you recorded piano samples or loaded a standard stretch file? If not, insufficient stretch could result in a F2A4 major third that is not wide enough.

Also, when using F2 to tune A4, we are not tuning F2, but setting it to make useful beats.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (08/30/14 08:52 PM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2322044 - 08/30/14 10:31 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
Mark Cerisano,

I see you have edited your post here!

And you deleted your post in the Skeleton thread.

Why are you doing so?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2322052 - 08/30/14 10:44 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
Piano World keeps records of all posts.

It is useless to delete or edit them!
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2322063 - 08/30/14 11:21 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Yes, slightly off topic, but I think that editing posts should be inhibited after the next post appears. In this way, editing would only be possible immediately afterwards to correct typos and ideas etc that are noticed immediately after hitting the submit button, but not after the poster has seen other's remarks.

Edit: Whoops, I just made a correction blush

Edit 2: I must be a psychic. I knew in advance that you were about to say:
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Yes Chris,

Here for example I am answering to your last post. What happens if you delete it after I have posted my answer?

It makes me look crazy!


Edited by Chris Leslie (08/31/14 02:24 AM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

Top
#2322067 - 08/30/14 11:28 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
Yes Chris,

Here for example I am answering to your last post. What happens if you delete it after I have posted my answer?

It makes me look crazy!
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2322076 - 08/31/14 12:14 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
frown

How did you know?


Jajajajajajajajaja!


LOL!
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2322104 - 08/31/14 01:44 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
WTH!

Am I crazi?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2322116 - 08/31/14 03:39 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Gadzar]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2007
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Rafael,

You keep pointing out Mark's "self promotion", and you keep provoking him with pointed remarks, such as

Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Mark Cerisano, RPT,

Here is a beginner asking to learn to hear beats in RBIs, let us see how good you are teaching him with your superior methods...


You present yourself as a self-appointed inquisitor with the single mission of provoking and discrediting Mark Cerisano. Is that what you want, rather than writing about piano technology?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2322118 - 08/31/14 04:04 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1728
Loc: Mexico City
Mark R.,

Each time I try to speak of piano technology, I am disqualified by Mark Cerisano.

If you want I can give you examples of that.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2322180 - 08/31/14 09:22 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 357
Loc: UK
:)Thanks. Now! apart from the "sniping" this is an interesting post. Bear in mind I only tune my piano and my daughter's anchient Broad wood !
About twenty yrs back when I had an an 1850(about) Carl Ecke and got interested in tuning. I relied on a couple of forks, from the science lab, and a borowed book - no computer those days,thus I worked on getting what sounded "good".
Now I have no forks but a small Yamaha ET device which has a moving needle. I roughly use this starting with A4 and the two octaves on either side. Then I work up and downt he key board - sort of "as required". Because I'm only looking to correct the notes which may sound "wrong" when play the whole regime is no great sweat!
I've read plenty on this site, which has helped, plus much more on Railsbeck, inharmonicity, etc, etc. However I do find it difficult to decide how count "beats". Maybe also to decide what IS a beat. Is it the loudest point in a repeated "rythm" i.e. the peak in the sine curve? If yes then I find this maximum exceedingly difficult to isolate in the flow of sound.
I like to play the octave plus a third to get a clear soud; and acending M3s just hear the "beat" increase: but there is no way I could acually count against a measured time interval !!
Now as we have a dry day I must go and mow some lawn !!

Top
#2322183 - 08/31/14 09:34 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Well, my guess is your ET device has no stretch. Look for my video on tuning a good octave aurally coming soon. Also, try my suggestions above. Also, load Audacity and have some fun with it.

BTW, you can make the thread more concise by going to the profile of any user who is hijacking a thread (click their name) and selecting Ignore User.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (08/31/14 09:37 AM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2322344 - 08/31/14 06:03 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Gadzar]
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2601
Loc: Not in Texas
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Mark R.,

Each time I try to speak of piano technology, I am disqualified by Mark Cerisano.

If you want I can give you examples of that.


Examples not required. Since you seem to have taken it upon yourself to comment and/or refute every post Mark C. has made in every thread he's participated in and taken offense where none was offered let me suggest you use the ignore feature so you won't be troubled by his posts.

If you're unable to do that and find yourself otherwise unable to refrain and thereby derailing every thread Mark C. participates in, I'll help you.

I hope this is clear.
_________________________
Greg

Top
#2324139 - 09/04/14 06:55 PM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1261
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
For those who found the A4 test interesting, I will be creating a similar set of pages for tuning an A3A4 octave.

Before I start, I'd like a little feedback please. Not the "how good am I doing" feedback, but more like "this is what we would like the next test to be like".

If you don't care about the next test, if you think the approach is flawed, if you think the idea of setting precise octaves is overrated, or if you have any other negative things to say about what I am doing, please do not respond. This post is not for you.

I have received sufficient feedback to confirm it is something a certain segment of beginning piano tuners finds interesting and educational. I won't be changing the approach, so any negative comments about the method will be ignored, especially if they are confrontational.

What I would like to know is:
1) Do you think the range of pitches for A4 is too high? According to quasi RPT test standards, the 9 pages (A4's) marked out approximately as -640%, -300%, -120%, -48%, 100%, -48%, -120%, -300% and -640%.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2324258 - 09/05/14 03:09 AM Re: Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2007
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Mark,

For me, the range was indeed too wide. I could pick out the flattest and the sharpest examples immediately, simply by relative pitch, without actually comparing the beat speeds. Even the second-flattest and second-sharpest examples were, I think, quite obvious (although I can't be sure, because one never knows exactly on which page one is). So in my opinion, the test would have been better, and probably more difficult, using a smaller pitch band.

Concerning octaves: it would be nice to hear the relevant octave test(s) and listen to the resulting octave (but I suppose that's your plan anyway?).
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Digital piano key noise
by bigsmile
09/21/14 03:15 AM
Hans von Bulow's piano
by phantomFive
09/21/14 01:57 AM
Rubinstein teaching style
by phantomFive
09/21/14 01:52 AM
Question regarding "technique"
by Francisco Scalco
09/21/14 12:29 AM
How about this Knabe Studio Piano?
by Paul678
09/20/14 11:49 PM
Who's Online
59 registered (bennevis, Ben_NZ, AliAlkhiro, 36251, Beth_Frances, beeboss, 13 invisible), 906 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76260 Members
42 Forums
157662 Topics
2315777 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission