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#2320751 - 08/27/14 05:09 PM An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton.
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I know Bill Bremmer advocates using Contiguous Major thirds to set a good start to an equal temperament octave, and I started using it with the 4:5 ratios years ago, but I have added a bit of my own to this powerful procedure. In this procedure, there is no need to know what 4:5 sounds like, often a stumbling block for my students.

This video also shows a visual demonstration using pen and paper. The demonstration shows why the lower skeleton is so accurate at tuning C#4. Some of my more advanced students who use this procedure, have asked me why it is so accurate. The visual demonstration helps to explain.

http://howtotunepianos.com/tuning-equal-temperament-using-the-skeleton/

As always, polite, constructive criticism is appreciated.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (08/27/14 05:13 PM)
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Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2320755 - 08/27/14 05:18 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Herr Weiss Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 156
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT


As always, polite, constructive criticism is appreciated.


Sorry, the word polite made me laugh out loud. laugh


HW

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#2320789 - 08/27/14 06:50 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Herr Weiss]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1817
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT


As always, polite, constructive criticism is appreciated.


Sorry, the word polite made me laugh out loud. laugh


HW


Me too!

Mark,

In the lower skeleton, when you say the progression must be for example 6, 8, 10. Or 8,8,8. Or 7,8,9. Or 9,8,7. Or 11, 8, 5. You are speaking of an arithmetic progression. This is incorrect. That produces an error in the tuning of C#4.

In ET all progressions are geometrical. It's the ratio of the frequences which is constant, not their difference.

Consider this example: A4=440, A3=220, F3=173.8 which gives F3A3 = 11 bps, F4=347.6

When tuning C#4 to have an arithmetic progression we have:


C#4= 277.03


A3C#4 = 8.12 bps and C#4F4 = 5.24 bps. This corresponds to a -2.88 progression in the beat rates of the CM3s.

11-2.88 = 8.12

8.12-2.88 = 5.24


But compared to the correct tuning of C#4 which is 440*2^(-8/12)= 277.18 we have an error of

error= 1200*log2(277.03/277.18)= -0.95 cents.


Almost one cent.

PS. This is no more accurate than tuning directly A3C#4 = 8 bps



Edited by Gadzar (08/27/14 08:20 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2320831 - 08/27/14 08:29 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 204
Loc: Massachusetts
Mark,

I suggest that next time you find yourself at a PTG convention, either regional or national, that you check out the tuning pedagogy of Jack Stebbins and/or Rick Baldassin.

It strikes me that the Mark Cerisano "Skeleton" is the same as "Jack's Stack" is the same as "The Baldassin/Sanderson Temperament" sequence.

Jack Stebbins has been teaching a course for years called "Let the Piano Tell You", which uses the same technique of triangulating comparative beat speeds of stacked contiguous major thirds balanced against octaves. The difference being that Jack includes C#3 in the sequence. The rationale is that it is easier for beginning tuners to hear/compare beat speeds in the range of 5:7:9 rather than beat speeds of 9:11:13. The technique is the same as yours however - mashing the C#s and the Fs around using the comparative beat speeds of the major thirds while maintaining octaves until a nice stack of increasing contiguous major thirds and clean octaves is reached.

Baldassin, in his class, goes even further and includes A2 in the sequence. I think his intention is to introduce the ~6:3 A2/A3 octave and the ~4:2 A3/A4 octave at the same time as getting the stack of thirds to increase in beat speed. Slightly more complicated, but in the end, it's the same.


Edited by Chris Storch (08/27/14 08:30 PM)
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Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

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#2320853 - 08/27/14 09:44 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Gadzar]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 678
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT


As always, polite, constructive criticism is appreciated.


Sorry, the word polite made me laugh out loud. laugh


HW


Me too!

Mark,

In the lower skeleton, when you say the progression must be for example 6, 8, 10. Or 8,8,8. Or 7,8,9. Or 9,8,7. Or 11, 8, 5. You are speaking of an arithmetic progression. This is incorrect. That produces an error in the tuning of C#4.

In ET all progressions are geometrical. It's the ratio of the frequences which is constant, not their difference.



Rafael, it seems like you are being overly pedantic just to pick an argument.

Mark is not suggesting that the tuning progression must be arithmetic, but rather, to change evenly as a means towards achieving the goal. "Evenly" is only an approximation and it is not necessary to talk about exact arithmetic or geometric at this stage.

The intent to establish a systematic method is much better than just flapping around randomly back and forth to get progressive CM3rds, which most likely usually happns.

Mark is doing his best to present a systematic way of undertaking a difficult tuning task for students. Do you have a method that would help students to get a reasonable CM3rd sequence?



Edited by Chris Leslie (08/27/14 10:41 PM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2320874 - 08/27/14 10:57 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Chris S. Thanks for the comment. I read about Stebbins' method, but the C#3 he uses involves a lot of temporary settings, AFAIK.

The real accuracy in this method happens after the skeleton. It starts with setting D4 so that F3D4 bisects F3A3 and A3C#4 and continues like that for the whole temperament, windows getting smaller and smaller as you go along.

But the bisection is not an arithmetic difference bisection. Its an aural one. For example, when you try to fit the three speeds changing evenly, and create daylight between them, they may sound even, but in order for you to hear the differences, you must create arithmetically uneven speeds. That's how the log scale works. I.e. the speeds wouldn't be 7,8,9 (those are just examples anyway), it would work out more like 7.2, 8, and 9.4. The human ear will tell you the difference between 7.2 and 8 is the same as 8 and 9.4, for example. (But the method doesn't use numbers)

When using the numbers as I do, students "get it".
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www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2320913 - 08/28/14 12:52 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1817
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT


As always, polite, constructive criticism is appreciated.


Sorry, the word polite made me laugh out loud. laugh


HW


Me too!

Mark,

In the lower skeleton, when you say the progression must be for example 6, 8, 10. Or 8,8,8. Or 7,8,9. Or 9,8,7. Or 11, 8, 5. You are speaking of an arithmetic progression. This is incorrect. That produces an error in the tuning of C#4.

In ET all progressions are geometrical. It's the ratio of the frequences which is constant, not their difference.



Rafael, it seems like you are being overly pedantic just to pick an argument.

Mark is not suggesting that the tuning progression must be arithmetic, but rather, to change evenly as a means towards achieving the goal. "Evenly" is only an approximation and it is not necessary to talk about exact arithmetic or geometric at this stage.

The intent to establish a systematic method is much better than just flapping around randomly back and forth to get progressive CM3rds, which most likely usually happns.

Mark is doing his best to present a systematic way of undertaking a difficult tuning task for students. Do you have a method that would help students to get a reasonable CM3rd sequence?



Chris Leslie,

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share true knowledge, compared to the vague and erroneous descriptions given by Mark Cerisano.

Of course I have a better way to present a systematic way of undertaking a "difficult" (as you say) task for students.

Here it is. And by following this accurate and professional method you'll discover that this is not so difficult for students:

Mid Range Piano Tuning - By Bill Bremmer


Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
The intent to establish a systematic method is much better than just flapping around randomly back and forth to get progressive CM3rds, which most likely usually happns.


Is that the way you tune?

If it is then I suggest you to study the document of Bill Bremmer. There you'll find a systematic and accurate way of tuning the CM3s, from F3 up to A4. With no guesses, no "back and forth", no fictious "incredible accuracy" as Mark promises and never demonstrates.


Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Mark is not suggesting that...
Mark is doing his best to present a ...



So now you know what Mark is trying to do...

Mark has said what he said, no less, no more. And all I did, was to follow his instructions, and they lead to an error of one cent in the tuning of C#4.

If you follow Bremmer's instructions you won't get to such a big error.

And if one is invited to guess what Mark suggests or tries to do, I'll tlell you what I honestly think:

The more I read his posts, the more I have the impression that Mark is using the Piano World Forums (plural) to make selfpromotion.

He's not interested in discussing technical aspects of tuning. Each time I've tried to talk with him he gives me the same disgusting answer: Mine is better than yours, I know more than you and the like... or even worst, he denies what he previously said, as he did with the 20 hours courses.

To my eyes his only interest is in showing what he does and how he does and to make it public!

I wonder if this the purpose of this Forums. I believe there are fees to pay to make advertising in PW.

Do you know that Mark has been banned from PW for 2 weeks, if my memory doensn't fail, for this very reason?

And he continues to make post after post showing his way of doing. And refusing to accept arguments against what he does.
He sells tuning courses 20 hours long and he argues that it is possible to teach tuning in 20 hours with his marvelous methods.

The video of the Tuneable filter to hear beats, is erroneous as he was hearing A6 and he said he was hearing A5. The beat rate is twice as much as he says. And he presents it as an accurate way to sensibilize students to beat rate recognition!

That is not professional.

If he makes a mistake, the less he can do is correct it and apologize.

In this very thread he announces he knows the Bremmer's method and he says he has "added a bit of his own" to supress a "stumbling block for his students".

and all he does is to introduce vague and inaccurate instructions which lead to error.




Edited by Gadzar (08/28/14 12:55 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2320929 - 08/28/14 02:15 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1973
Loc: Philadelphia area
Mark is obviously promoting himself, but so is every other technician who posts his profession, company name, and web address.

I have to commend Mark for his clear and upbeat presentations. This is the third of his videos that I've watched and all have offered practical and useful information.

I do understand someone becoming annoyed when, instead of saying, " This is how I use the system," Mark seems to be taking credit for inventing something which was developed over 200 yrs ago.

Besides promoting himself, Mark is also promoting the craft of piano technology. Something I think technicians in the forum do appreciate and something I wish I could do more of.

I can still hear my uncle Bill saying over and over to me, "Lady Luck favors those who try."


Enjoy

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#2320937 - 08/28/14 02:45 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2671
As I can see it, this is a case where someone attempts a task that is over his capacity.
Maybe he can try a few decades later.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2320950 - 08/28/14 03:22 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Gadzar]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 678
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Yes, Bill Bremmer does present a very good demonstration of tuning CM3rds.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2320960 - 08/28/14 04:34 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Colorado
Hi Mark~~
I just watched your video. I commend you in your efforts in wanting to help folks learn to tune pianos. It's a huge undertaking.

I'm going to free-associate here, so hopefully you'll understand some of my confusion and suggestions and I hope you don't take what I say as being out of line.

I completed nearly 300 tunings before I was injured, so no doubt I developed some good habits and bad. Fortunately, I took some good advice early on and my customers were pretty happy with my work. I'm on the sidelines now.

Now, while on the topic of tuning, it might be a good idea for you to teach students how to replace strings on their practice piano, especially with the high number of adjustments needed to render a string using your method of tuning-detuning unisons, then going back an forth adjusting intervals. Beginners might not have the degree of body control you do and many will probably have older pianos with more brittle strings. Learning to replace strings is an invaluable skill for a tuner anyway.

It appears in your video you are you assuming your students understand how a 6:3 and a 4:2 octave is defined and what it sounds like? You don't explain how to create or do checks on either of them, but you use the term "window".

You also say that the F3-A3 beat speed is not important at the onset, but you continue to talk about beat speeds between intervals and demonstrate how important they are throughout the video. You talk about how accurate your method is, but don't demonstrate it on your piano with a ready-to-expand temperament. Maybe you should simply lay down the bearings using your method from start to finish, while using a text overlay describing exactly what you are doing. You show folks how some of it is done, but you don't actually do it yourself. Tune the temperament, then an octave above and below it to show how accurate and simple it is.

You talk about intervals increasing by one beat per second, but one or both unisons in your example beats more or less at one beat per second. That is wildly difficult to follow. It's impossible for me to hear if an octave is clean (4:2, 6:3 etc) if the unisons are beating themselves.

Also, I hear unisons that are wildly out as you are attempting to demonstrate beat progressions. You go back and get a somewhat solid unison, but then knock it out again when you are adjusting beats between the intervals you are attempting to create. It is very confusing. You're doing two things at once, both of which require a high level of concentration and body control. I am not sure how a beginner watching will benefit from it.

It seems that getting a student to hear and control fast beating intervals to set a temperament while at the same time tuning and detuning unisons might create some confusion.

To set a temperament, you should perhaps avoid unison tuning and detuning at the same time. I perceive it as counter-productive. I am sure an advanced piano technician can pretty much get away with such a method if needed, but not a beginner. I would think one can't hear the piano's temperament if the unisons are not solid.

You say your Double String unison method forces you to produce clean unisons, but they don't exist in your video and it makes listening to fast intervals, including the two demonstrated solid octaves impossible to hear.

Sorry if I am overly repetitive and/or missing something here, but this video seems to create more confusion than less. I'd recommend you redo it for better clarification.
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A Bit of YouTube
PTG Associate Member

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#2320988 - 08/28/14 06:38 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1411
No one need to pat Mark Cerisano, RPT, on the back--I don't think that is what he is after. I understand that he always seem to be self-promotiony, but I think maybe he's an upbeat person, who cares about piano technology, and really wants to help make things better. At least he is trying something, what are the rest of you doing?

And then he sincerely asks us for feedback so that he can continue to improve--which he is (i.e., the videos are getting better). Mark Cerisano, RPT, I applaud your efforts, appreciate your improvements, and look forward to more.

It might be productive to talk about the trigger words/phrases that are inflaming so many people here. I don't know what they all are, so they will need to come from the people that they actually bother, but from what I've gleaned: Mark Cerisano, RPT (i.e., they don't like seeing/hearing your name so often); anything that indicates you've done or developed something (e.g., "my" methodology)--it comes across like you are trademarking something that is "yours"; they don't like being reminded that you have students. (i.e., avoid that term whenever possible); they don't really want to know your experiences and what justifies your approach--just do it, be yourself, and don't feel like you need to justify your statements.

People: if you have a problem with his words, tell him now--so he can modify the approach--or hold your peace and stop blaming him for it.
_________________________
Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2320993 - 08/28/14 07:04 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1411
I have long advocated the use of open string unisons, especially in the learning process: it forces the brain to listen and think differently! The one-mute tuners of the past were not minimalists, they heard what they were doing, and it was resonant/consonant.

I don't know how many technicians here have learned to hear through a not-absoultly-perfect union trichords to observe the "beat rates." This is because 'beat counters' listen more to the decay/sustain, while 'beat feelers' use more of the attack/hold to make their assessment. Open string tunings require the use of both observations simultaneously: the attack/hold for the temperament and the decay/sustain for the unison quality. If you are communicating with technicians here that don't possess both kinds of listening skills--especially the ones that can't tune via the attack--they are always going to be confused by the sound and think it confusing. There is nothing much you can do about that unless they take the time to learn to listen.
_________________________
Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2320998 - 08/28/14 07:31 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Herr Weiss Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 156
Loc: New York, N.Y.
@Inlanding:

Very good post. thumb

I am sorry to hear about your injury and wish you a full recovery.



HW

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#2321087 - 08/28/14 11:44 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: A443]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2671
Originally Posted By: A443

People: if you have a problem with his words, tell him now--so he can modify the approach--or hold your peace and stop blaming him for it.


I have told my problems before, but there is no harm repeating.

Yes, using the forum for self promoting is annoying.

There is too much "words" but little "doing" to prove the "words" are right.

Both "words" and the little "doing" are not full proof if not erroneous, hence unconvincing.


As I said above, this is more a capacity issue.
We can appreciate the effort, but not the outcome always.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2321104 - 08/28/14 12:30 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: A443]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: A443
I have long advocated the use of open string unisons, especially in the learning process: it forces the brain to listen and think differently! The one-mute tuners of the past were not minimalists, they heard what they were doing, and it was resonant/consonant.

I don't know how many technicians here have learned to hear through a not-absoultly-perfect union trichords to observe the "beat rates." This is because 'beat counters' listen more to the decay/sustain, while 'beat feelers' use more of the attack/hold to make their assessment. Open string tunings require the use of both observations simultaneously: the attack/hold for the temperament and the decay/sustain for the unison quality. If you are communicating with technicians here that don't possess both kinds of listening skills--especially the ones that can't tune via the attack--they are always going to be confused by the sound and think it confusing. There is nothing much you can do about that unless they take the time to learn to listen.


When unisons are not clean, the beat speeds produced by an RBI with that unison can still be heard, but it "rides" on the roll of the unison. We can learn to listen past that, but also recognize it when it occurs so that we can find and fix unisons that have drifted.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2321109 - 08/28/14 12:32 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Hakki]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Hakki
As I can see it, this is a case where someone attempts a task that is over his capacity.
Maybe he can try a few decades later.


Have heart. I don't think it will take you that long.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2321122 - 08/28/14 12:45 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2671
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Hakki
As I can see it, this is a case where someone attempts a task that is over his capacity.
Maybe he can try a few decades later.


Have heart. I don't think it will take you that long.


Me ?! confused
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2321125 - 08/28/14 12:49 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Inlanding]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Thanks for the detailed post Inlanding. Very helpful, and polite.

Here are my comments:


Originally Posted By: Inlanding
Now, while on the topic of tuning, it might be a good idea for you to teach students how to replace strings on their practice piano.

Absolutely. It's my next task.

Originally Posted By: Inlanding

It appears in your video you are you assuming your students understand how a 6:3 and a 4:2 octave is defined and what it sounds like? You don't explain how to create or do checks on either of them, but you use the term "window".

Another great idea for a video.

Originally Posted By: Inlanding


You also say that the F3-A3 beat speed is not important at the onset, but you continue to talk about beat speeds between intervals and demonstrate how important they are throughout the video.

Beat speed difference sensitivity is very important. F3A3 = 7bps is not, because the skeleton will set it according to the piano.

Originally Posted By: Inlanding



You talk about how accurate your method is, but don't demonstrate it on your piano with a ready-to-expand temperament. Maybe you should simply lay down the bearings using your method from start to finish, while using a text overlay describing exactly what you are doing. You show folks how some of it is done, but you don't actually do it yourself. Tune the temperament, then an octave above and below it to show how accurate and simple it is.

It's a task but I did do it to a temperament I did at regular speed, too fast for many to follow. That was a bad idea.

Now that's three videos on my list. I have probably 50 floating around in my head, so thank you for helping me figure out which are more important.
Originally Posted By: Inlanding


You talk about intervals increasing by one beat per second, but one or both unisons in your example beats more or less at one beat per second. That is wildly difficult to follow. It's impossible for me to hear if an octave is clean (4:2, 6:3 etc) if the unisons are beating themselves.

Could you be more specific? Which video? What time?

Originally Posted By: Inlanding

Also, I hear unisons that are wildly out as you are attempting to demonstrate beat progressions. You go back and get a somewhat solid unison, but then knock it out again when you are adjusting beats between the intervals you are attempting to create. It is very confusing. You're doing two things at once, both of which require a high level of concentration and body control. I am not sure how a beginner watching will benefit from it.

Yes, they will not. The method is meant to be used. It is in the using that the student improves.

Beating unisons still produce audible beats with RBI, they're just not as easy to hear. More incentive for students to clean them up.

Originally Posted By: Inlanding

It seems that getting a student to hear and control fast beating intervals to set a temperament while at the same time tuning and detuning unisons might create some confusion.

We're "stepping" the pitch along. Once they get that, it becomes second nature.

Originally Posted By: Inlanding



To set a temperament, you should perhaps avoid unison tuning and detuning at the same time. I perceive it as counter-productive. I am sure an advanced piano technician can pretty much get away with such a method if needed, but not a beginner.

It's not easy to teach unisons in a short course. Unisons are so important. Sure, it's ok to say "just make sure you practice getting good unisons", but DSU forces the student to learn how to create clean unisons right away. Learning to tune a piano is painful. The DSU method is front loaded with pain.

Originally Posted By: Inlanding


I would think one can't hear the piano's temperament if the unisons are not solid.
[/quote ]
Exactly! Inherent motivation.

[quote=Inlanding]

You say your Double String unison method forces you to produce clean unisons, but they don't exist in your video and it makes listening to fast intervals, including the two demonstrated solid octaves impossible to hear.

Again, please list the specific example. Video and time please. That would be very helpful.

Originally Posted By: Inlanding

Sorry if I am overly repetitive and/or missing something here, but this video seems to create more confusion than less. I'd recommend you redo it for better clarification.


I will not disagree. If I can imagine a better way, I'll do it. Perhaps it could be shorter.

Thanks again.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (08/28/14 12:51 PM)
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#2321275 - 08/28/14 08:28 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Colorado
Hi, Mark ~~ I'll try to be thorough in my response to your request:

I don’t hear any solid unisons in this (your) thread's video. What do you mean by the, "DSU method is front loaded with pain", or "Exactly, Inherent motivation".

My experience is that learning piano care and learning to tune a piano is more of an iterative process.

My suggestion is to separate out the topic of practicing unisons from the topic of skeleton interval setting, i.e., not mixing the two.

As you requested, here are the times - the video is the one you originally placed in this thread.

C#4 at :39 seconds
F3 at 1:11
You say, F3 - F4 octave maybe wide 4:2, maybe narrow 6:3 @ 1:55 — both unisons are not quiet - they beat (or roll). If you instead used a single string, it’d be much easier to hear intervals in your skeleton system and so would it be in hearing clean octaves.

You say, “Each one (interval) changing by one beat per second” at 2:47 - the unisons are not solid

You say, "That is why the C# is precise” @ 3:23, then you lower the C# again at 3:44. When exactly is it precise in the sequence you are demonstrating?
You lower two strings of C# into a unison that is beating @ 3:51, then raise it again at 4:06 - how do you know it is 8 beats from A3?
You lower F4 in a unison that beats @ 5:27
"Double String unisons method requires clean unisons" @ 8:17 to 8:28 “The most important thing in a piano tuning”. Maybe you are not using exactly your DSU method in this video?
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#2321356 - 08/29/14 12:15 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Inlanding]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Unisons must be clean. In any other method other than open unison, the tuner can leave the unisons not clean. In open unison you have a longer time with them to find the drifters.

Also, for beginners, if they are not close to clean, the beats will be very difficult to hear. They are forced to work on unisons before the other stuff; front loading.

With the mute strip, you can leave unisons unstable and not clean, but you'll get call backs; back loading.

"Exactly, inherent motivation" meant, if you want to hear the temperament you need solid unisons. Just like you said. However, with rolling unisons, RBI can still be heard. But the P4 ladder must increase slightly and evenly in colour in ET, and that will not be easy to hear if the unisons roll. The P4 ladder is my last test. I consider it the most sensitive test for ET.

"My suggestion is to separate out the topic of practicing unisons from the topic of skeleton interval setting, i.e., not mixing the two." - The two weren't mixed intentionally. The video was about the skeleton, the DSU was just the way it was tuned. It can be done any way. I agree with you though; maybe I should make another video using the mute strip.

Here are my comments concerning the unisons:

C#4 at :39 seconds - this was before the tuning. Piano wasn't tuned. I was just showing the notes.

F3 at 1:11 - distortion.

1:55 - Those are some pretty slow rolls. Many tuners tune unisons like that. But rolling is acceptable when setting RBI, (carrier wave) not when checking octave directly. The test is, when the octave is in the window, there should be no rolling. If there is, it's coming from a unison.

2:47 - (FYI, don't take the numbers literally) - This was a visual demonstration of how the relationships work, not an aural demonstration; I hadn't tuned the C#4 or F4 yet.

3:23 - C# had not been tuned yet. At this point I began the "fitting".

3:44 - At 3:33 I set C#4 based on the previous judgement, but the speeds came out as Fast/Fast/Pure; criteria for lowering C#4.

"When exactly is it precise in the sequence you are demonstrating?" 6:34. Accuracy is dependant on how close F3A3 is to the final setting. But you can reiterate, like I did. I set F3A3 way off on purpose, to show how it works even when F3 is not good.

3:51 - Ya, that could have been better, but I did tweak it before I moved on.

4:06 - the goal is NOT 8bps, that was an arbitrary number used for illustration. The goal is smoothly changing beat speeds. At 3:55, the beats test out as Fast/Slow/Slow; NOT evenly changing. This test proves C#4 is flat. Because of where F3 was set, the goal, at this point, looks to be Fast/Med/Slow. (And since I tuned F3 flat on purpose, this F/M/S progression would be expected.)

5:27 Yes, I hear that.

8:17 to 8:28 - Yes, this seems to be a contradiction. But I still maintain it is beneficial for beginners. Just for them to get less than 1bps is a challenge, and >1bps makes hearing RBI from those kind of unisons impossible.

I will modify my claim to be "Double String Unison method requires close unisons (<1bps) when testing RBI, and clean unisons when expecting clean octaves."

I hope that helps.

I am open to creating another video using the mute strip if you think that would be more accessible.

This is my weakness, producing content that is accessible. I know that. That is the main reason why I post them on PW. Self-promotion is a much smaller part of it than it used to be. I don't get much business from PW, but what I do get, which is incredibly more valuable, are posts like yours.

Thank you again.
_________________________
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www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2321401 - 08/29/14 03:59 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I know Bill Bremmer advocates using Contiguous Major thirds to set a good start to an equal temperament octave, and I started using it with the 4:5 ratios years ago, but I have added a bit of my own to this powerful procedure. In this procedure, there is no need to know what 4:5 sounds like, often a stumbling block for my students.

This video also shows a visual demonstration using pen and paper. The demonstration shows why the lower skeleton is so accurate at tuning C#4. Some of my more advanced students who use this procedure, have asked me why it is so accurate. The visual demonstration helps to explain.

http://howtotunepianos.com/tuning-equal-temperament-using-the-skeleton/

As always, polite, constructive criticism is appreciated.

I like it. It's different than Bill Bremmer's method which is single string based. When you have to raise a string a bit on a single string you sort of "work in the dark", esp. when the beats are not so clear, but with the DSU technique you can calibrate you in(or de-)crements better.

Polite, constructive criticism: It seems the video could be condensed into 1/3 time. So the students would have to spend 2/3 less time listening, but you'd have to spend 50 times longer making and editing the video. Counter argument: if the students hear your "too long" video they get insight into what you are thinking when making the video. Matter of teaching style.

Don't say "it's a method I've developed", say it's a tuning method that I've refined.

You assume octave checks are known. (OK but depending on context.)

Around 3:00 "AC# is always 8 so it's precise" makes no sense.

Around 5:20 unclear what's going on.

Same at 6:30.

7:30 "extra time to do this.." do what?

8:15 digression to DSU, off topic.

9:00 off topic bisecting stuff

Cosmetic: put some screen up so we don't see all the junk in your garage in the background, it looks "unprofessional".

Kees

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#2321426 - 08/29/14 06:05 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Thanks Kees.

I knew most of that stuff but really needed to be told it from someone else. Excellent points, every one.
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www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2321448 - 08/29/14 07:39 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1411
Mark Cerisano, RPT, the videos are improving, but I still agree with DoelKees re:video editing and length. Also, forget about "fancy" transitions.

Perhaps you might first decide what you want to convey and then break it down into segments. Record each segment multiple times until you get your point across in a meaningful way that can be edited together. If you try to do a script, it will probably get boring, but if you do multiple takes, you should start to notice redundancies and unnecessary speech patterns.

re: unprofessional garage junk
This was one of the first things that caught my eye. If you were to put up a clean/blank screen, then I think my eye would be more draw to the dirtiness/disgustingness of your piano. <-----that you really SHOULD clean-up!! I would suggest keeping the rest of the room as is--it is your natural environment that you apparently feel comfortable in, so use that to your advantage--instead consider addressing the issue with better lighting control. If you are going to make videos, you really need better lighting anyway. I'd go for a few led panels with adjustable temperatures, barn doors, and a way to diffuse the light. Light up yourself and your area, not the clutter in the background. The video will start to look like it has a better resolution with appropriate lighting. A better microphone is needed, and then a nicer camera with a wider lens so that you can record more appropriately in that small space.
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#2321482 - 08/29/14 09:54 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2671
The method is inaccurate and this should be stated in the video, saying that it can be used for setting rough approximate M3rds. Sorry I really can't say contiguous, but some M3rds increasing in speed.

It should also be noted in the video that other accurate methods for setting contiguous M3rds should be used for fine tuning.


Edited by Hakki (08/29/14 09:56 AM)
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#2321574 - 08/29/14 02:49 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
What other accurate methods. Please explain.
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#2321578 - 08/29/14 02:54 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2671
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
What other accurate methods. Please explain.


Chris Storch and Gadzar have already tried to guide you.

Look at their posts above.
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Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2321608 - 08/29/14 03:58 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Herr Weiss]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1685
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
@Inlanding:

Very good post. thumb
I am sorry to hear about your injury and wish you a full recovery.

HW

Herr Weiss~~ thank you for your kind words! It's a very long work-in-progress that takes interminable amounts of patience.

Mark,
Look forward to your cleaned up videos and clean unisons. It seems that if you are emphasizing how clean unisons need / should be, then the onus is on you to demonstrate it by making them as perfect as you can at every step. As well, modeling the behaviors you want to teach gives your students confidence in you on so many levels. Glad others were willing to give you specific and tangible suggestions.

If you are still going to do a video on your way of using Contiguous Thirds, maybe do one using single strings, then duplicate the video using your DSU style. Learning/keeping really solid fundamentals early on carry over into developing a larger, more sophisticated skill-set.

Glad to see you are open-minded with your evolving educational website development.

Glen
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#2321742 - 08/29/14 10:47 PM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Dave B]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1817
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Mark is obviously promoting himself, but so is every other technician who posts his profession, company name, and web address.


Not me! Since 2006 I have not made a single customer in PW.

When I came first to this forum, I signed as GADZAR. No name, no profession, no link to my web site. My only interest here was, and still is, to learn from others and share my knowledge with others. Then I have read this post on the Piano Forum:

Piano Industry Pros - READ THIS by Piano World

I will cite some points of this post:

Originally Posted By: Piano World
Are You A Piano Industry Professional?
Do You Work In The Piano Industry?
Or... Were You Recently Associated With The Piano Industry?
Are You, or Were You a... Piano Dealer, Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder, Teacher, Sales Person, Manufacturer/Manufacturer's Rep, Distributor, Wholesaler, Retailer, Manager, Consultant, Supplier, Importer/Exporter?



If you answered yes to any of the above, please
Identify your affiliation with the piano business in your signature!
.
.
.
If you are or were a piano industry professional, please identify yourself as such so people will know the source of your "expertise".
.
.
.
If you consider yourself to be a professional, please act like one! If you just can't resist promoting yourself or your business, or you think bashing your competitors and/or their products is the way to do business, you will likely find yourself banned from the forums.
.
.
.
Stop the Self-Promotion!
It is NOT ACCEPTABLE for you to create posts thinly disguised as an innocent discussion when in fact they are nothing more than a promotion for your business.
.
.
.
Nor should you be directing your customers here for the sole purpose of touting how wonderful you are.
.
.
.
Now for what we do consider self-promotion:
.
.
.
If you're in the business and you continually create posts to talk about your business, you're self-promoting.
.
.
.
Piano Industry Professional Advertising Options:

If you would like to promote your business on Piano World, check out our Professional Advertising options.
Advertising on Piano World works. We deliver high volume targeted traffic. Click the link above for more details.



That's why I added my profession and a link to my web site, but I have never made selfpromotion!


Now, I ask you to see the threads Mark Cerisano has created this last days:


An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton.


Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats.


Using a tuneable audio filter to help you hear beats


Beginners, see how good you are at tuning A4 aurally.


Try my quiz on narrow, wide and pure intervals.


For students - a lesson on how to hear beats easier


That's only for the first page displayed in my computer screen...

Add to these all the posts where Mark disqualifies what others do to then say he has a better way to do it. See the example below:

Re:For students - a lesson on how to hear beats easier

Here he says:

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Hi Jamie,

With all due respect to Mr. Reblitz, I do not feel that his method is very accurate or easy to learn. Search PW for "skeleton" method. It relies on listening to the piano to try and determine if 7, 8, and 9, is appropriate.

For your specific question, yes, F3A3 beats at A6. Here are some more coincidental partial formula:

m3: P15 plus M3 above top
M3: P15 above top
P4: P15 above bottom
P5: P8 above top
M6: P15 plus M3 above bottom
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com


As always he tries to invalidate what others do and to selfpromote himself.

And worst of all: he's wrong in what he says to beginners who do not even notice the errors he makes!

F3A3 beats at A5 not A6.

The student was asking where to hear the beats at. He asked specifically if he must hear at 880 hz, and if this was A6.

Originally Posted By: JamietheMan
I've been using the Reblitz text to try teach myself how to tune, and have been going through the exercises leading up to tuning the temperament in chapter 7. I understand the theory of frequencies and coincidental partials. I'm now trying to hear 7, 8, and 9 beats per second when tuning F33-A37, F33-D42. and A#38-D42 respectively. If I'm hearing the beats correctly, should I be hearing them at the tone of the coincidental partial? For example, F33 and A37 "meet" at 880.000 Hz and 873.070 Hz respectfully. 880 is A6 (A61 I believe?). So should the 7 bps be sounding around the pitch of A6?


880 hz is A5

not A6 as Mark answered to the student. He made the same error in his video of the Tuneable filter, I wonder if in fact he thinks F3A3 beats are to be heard at A6 instead of A5?


BTW: Students?

Yes! I guess that is how Mark sees the posters in PW. Like potential students for his courses.

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I was just reading over some posts by students who were looking for ways to make tuning the temperament easier.


Who? Which posts? Where? Isn't it the posts of his students, in his web site?



Edited by Gadzar (08/29/14 11:10 PM)
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#2321826 - 08/30/14 08:36 AM Re: An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton. [Re: Hakki]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
What other accurate methods. Please explain.


Chris Storch and Gadzar have already tried to guide you.

Look at their posts above.


They are not more accurate. Sorry. You did not read my posts after.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (08/30/14 08:42 AM)
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www.howtotunepianos.com

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