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#2320651 - 08/27/14 12:38 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
(I wouldn't particularly say Freud, Jung, or psychoanalysis, but I suppose that broadly speaking you could argue those too.)

Mark, they were the first people to identify this, after all.

Depends what you mean by "this." As I see what's being said here, it's not something they particularly "identified" at all, and I don't see how it's at all close to anything they emphasized in their theories or methods.

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#2320653 - 08/27/14 12:44 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: Cinnamonbear]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1381
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: BruceD
"inner game books"? "tool making"? "self chat"? What are we talking about here, and how does it relate to piano performance?

I'm with Bruce.

(Boy, are we out of it....) ha


I'm with wr. I am definitely not with Atrys. He is *really* out of it! crazy

No need to single people out with insults if you disagree with them. We're here to have a good conversation, not insult each other. For a reference that is older than the inner game books, what did Thumper's mother say?


My self-talk this morning: "Oh, Andy, what an ass you are!"

Nah, you are a brilliant being!
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2320747 - 08/27/14 05:05 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: Atrys]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Atrys
[quote=laguna_greg]

Methinks you're past your prime old man.



Oh My! Should I be nervous?....nah....

And, you're the first person to ever call me an old man...I am secretly charmed...
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2320750 - 08/27/14 05:09 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: Mark_C]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
(I wouldn't particularly say Freud, Jung, or psychoanalysis, but I suppose that broadly speaking you could argue those too.)

Mark, they were the first people to identify this, after all.

Depends what you mean by "this." As I see what's being said here, it's not something they particularly "identified" at all, and I don't see how it's at all close to anything they emphasized in their theories or methods.


Now Mark, which is it? First you said it could be argued, now you're saying it can't be?
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2320790 - 08/27/14 06:52 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: laguna_greg]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7839
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Oh OK. ha

So, what this is all about is a combination of just plain thinking (with emphasis on "positive" thought) and long-time concepts that come from various fields as widely dispersed as behavioral therapy, meditation, sports psychology, and countless self-help approaches. (I wouldn't particularly say Freud, Jung, or psychoanalysis, but I suppose that broadly speaking you could argue those too.)


Mark, they were the first people to identify this, after all.


They weren't the first to identify it - they were merely among the the first to attempt some kind of placement of it within a Western scientific tradition. It was identified for many centuries before that, in various meditation and/or religious cultures.



Edited by wr (08/27/14 06:55 PM)

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#2320844 - 08/27/14 09:08 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
Roland The Beagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 245
Loc: California
I've always had a very vivid 'mental life', and I find it indispensable to everything, including music. It can work for you or against you. I find that I rehearse and work on music away from the piano, just as I would do planning my day or what I have to say to someone, etc. I find it to be very helpful to 'chat with myself' about what I'm doing to keep focused during practice, set the next goal and follow it, and so on.

In terms of the kind of self-chat where you predict your own failure and then react because of it, I feel that this is something that will simply take time and life experience to go away. Negative thinking like this happens for a reason. It comes from focusing on the wrong thing. I used to have this kind of thinking all of the time and would make mistakes because of it, but over time music has given me wonderful relationships, wonderful experiences, and has helped me become more confident and happy as a person and so a more relaxed and capable performer. Better appreciating the spirit of music, which is sharing music and making a connection, instead of being a perfectionist, is what will help the most with negative self-doubt.

I still get a bit of stage anxiety of course, but otherwise I love performing now. You get to share your music and make that audience happy! I find that accepting your limits, loving and forgiving yourself, and not caring at all about mistakes is the road to making less of them and being more at peace when you perform for others. You need to not judge yourself so harshly. The self-critic is coming down hard for little flubs and mistakes, but instead it should be coming down hard on you for focusing on the wrong thing. Flubs and mistakes are irrelevant, what you should criticize yourself or is not caring for your audience and only caring about your mistakes. Concentrate on making some wonderful music for your audience, and then mistakes won't matter because their expectations are far lower than yours and they just want they and you to enjoy some great music.
_________________________
Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2320852 - 08/27/14 09:42 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: Atrys]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Can we get back to the topic, please?

The topic is:

The role of self-talk as described in the performance psychology literature.

Thanks!
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#2320859 - 08/27/14 09:56 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: Roland The Beagle]
1RC Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Alberta
Originally Posted By: Roland The Beagle
In terms of the kind of self-chat where you predict your own failure and then react because of it, I feel that this is something that will simply take time and life experience to go away. Negative thinking like this happens for a reason. It comes from focusing on the wrong thing. I used to have this kind of thinking all of the time and would make mistakes because of it, but over time music has given me wonderful relationships, wonderful experiences, and has helped me become more confident and happy as a person and so a more relaxed and capable performer. Better appreciating the spirit of music, which is sharing music and making a connection, instead of being a perfectionist, is what will help the most with negative self-doubt.


Excellent post Roland, it jives with my experience. I think in my learning I pushed and was pushed too hard to play music that was too difficult for me to control which created an overarching feeling of playing as a tightrope walk on a windy day, with kids throwing rocks from all sides. I think smaller challenges that can be successfully met would be a better approach for developing confidence along the way.

I believe our mental states can have a large effect on the outcome of a performance, but also that having a long string of successful performances is a great foundation of confidence.

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#2320882 - 08/27/14 11:18 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Now Mark, which is it? First you said it could be argued, now you're saying it can't be?

I said "broadly speaking" you could "argue" it.
That's two qualifiers on it.

I was trying to be kind by saying that broadly speaking you could argue it. grin
My basic thought is that this has essentially no relation to Freud, Jung, or psychoanalysis.

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#2321070 - 08/28/14 11:09 AM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 939
Loc: UK
Thanks for your contribution Greg - that really helped focus things (something I'm not too good at).

Roland, that was interesting. I think re: Greg, you need to be careful not to just apply a cognitive 'bandaid' - a real change in attitude, as you seem to imply, presumably comes from the amygdala? or at any rate an affective/emotive region? I believe the gut has been found to have a role there.

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#2321080 - 08/28/14 11:33 AM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5108
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
I believe the gut has been found to have a role there.

Yes, more than half our body weight is the bacteria we carry in/on ourselves, most of which reside in our gut.

They have a rôle in changing our attitude towards ourselves (as well as towards them) thumb.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2321094 - 08/28/14 11:55 AM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 939
Loc: UK
No doubt, but I was thinking more the enteric nervous system.

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#2321169 - 08/28/14 02:55 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: 1RC]
Roland The Beagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 245
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: 1RC
I think smaller challenges that can be successfully met would be a better approach for developing confidence along the way.


I completely agree with this, and I've become more and more aware just how important this is. It is a colossal mistake to give a student repertoire that is too difficult for them to reasonably perform well, and I feel that a lot of instructors (especially in the USA) take this approach.

The far better approach is to concentrate on building technique with etudes, exercises, and a piece that is designated for that purpose. For performances, a student should have pieces that are well within their technical abilities so they can practice the art of connecting with the audience in a relaxed way.

For my first 2 years I was saddled with repertoire that taxed me in practice and so when it came to performances flubs and mistakes were almost impossible to avoid, and so therefore were the feelings of self-doubt and frustration.
_________________________
Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2321666 - 08/29/14 06:26 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: Atrys]
Scordatura Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 129
Loc: Suffolk, UK
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Arghhh

Can you illustrate your position with an example?

Sure; for instance, if one identifies or otherwise becomes aware of deficiencies in cognition, which of course can manifest in many different ways and by many different root causes, the person could undergo evaluation to determine the appropriate corrective steps. Whatever the corrective prescription is (medicine, science-based meditation, exercise, OTC supplementation [yes, this is a real cause in some cases], etc), what is being addressed is entirely material: understanding the science of why this is happening and how to best correct it is much more effective than inventing fictional dichotomies of the mind.

You know something is wrong with the education system when former students are more attracted to spiritual woo-woo as a means of corrective facility instead of looking toward the science.

As a researcher and pianist, I've subscribed to this viewpoint for the past 40+ years, and it's done well for me. But, Atrys, how do you account for the fact that having a tune in your head - hardly an item of informed scientific knowledge - can hugely affect your brain's ability to generate behaviour that dramatically increases your chances of finding and reproducing its sound on a keyboard? And more reliably so than all the current scientific literature about that is able to explain? Similarly, the likes of Liszt, Hofmann, Godowsky etc., did just fine long before Ortmann and Schultz taught piano-pedagogy the underlying science of piano-playing kinematics and skeletal energy-transmission.

At the end of the day, all information the brain uses to direct behaviour amounts to trains of electrical impulses from neuron to neuron. It doesn't make the slightest difference to a neuron what the semantic content implied by this or that train of impulses might be - it merely needs to be sufficiently excited by them to generate a further train, neuron after neuron in turn until the final neurons' trains reaches their targeted neuromuscular junctions. If you happen to believe that your playing-movements are controlled by fairies that you must talk to politely in a special language, then that utter mumbo-jumbo will do the trick just as effectively as any scientifically derived, nail-on-the head, mental model or algorithm.
All human progress, civilization, culture, science itself, is based on knowledge likely to be fallacious in some respects, if not all.


Edited by Scordatura (08/29/14 06:47 PM)

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#2321669 - 08/29/14 06:41 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
Roland The Beagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 245
Loc: California
Science is always studying the past, and using it to form models to predict the future. One must never confuse the model with reality. Consciousness is always on the razor's edge of the present and reality. The former can never catch up to the latter, although it can certainly inform present decisions for the better, because it appears that nature is full of wondrous patterns and mathematical laws. In order for scientists to understand pianism, they must study the pianists and their brains as they do what they do. But science itself can never do.

For more on this subject, read David Hume's take on induction. Love me some philomosophy.
_________________________
Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2321811 - 08/30/14 07:01 AM Re: Self Chat [Re: Roland The Beagle]
chopin_r_us Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 939
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Roland The Beagle
because it appears that nature is full of wondrous patterns and mathematical laws.
appears being the operative word here. I don't subscribe to the view myself.

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#2321877 - 08/30/14 12:34 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: Roland The Beagle]
1RC Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Alberta
Originally Posted By: Roland The Beagle
Originally Posted By: 1RC
I think smaller challenges that can be successfully met would be a better approach for developing confidence along the way.


I completely agree with this, and I've become more and more aware just how important this is. It is a colossal mistake to give a student repertoire that is too difficult for them to reasonably perform well, and I feel that a lot of instructors (especially in the USA) take this approach.

The far better approach is to concentrate on building technique with etudes, exercises, and a piece that is designated for that purpose. For performances, a student should have pieces that are well within their technical abilities so they can practice the art of connecting with the audience in a relaxed way.

For my first 2 years I was saddled with repertoire that taxed me in practice and so when it came to performances flubs and mistakes were almost impossible to avoid, and so therefore were the feelings of self-doubt and frustration.


I think I laboured a good 9 or 10 years before figuring that out, hahah! I think the teachers didn't see how huge the effort to learn the repertoire was becoming, so long as it seemed like I was able to make noticeable progress each week. I like how you put it: "the art of connecting with the audience in a relaxed way" - I would consider that the number 1 priority and put advancing skill in the very near second place.

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#2321881 - 08/30/14 12:43 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 939
Loc: UK
You are right 1 - connecting with the audience is the number 1 skill. If there's to be chat, I think that's to whom it should be directed.

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#2321892 - 08/30/14 01:46 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5108
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
You are right 1 - connecting with the audience is the number 1 skill. If there's to be chat, I think that's to whom it should be directed.

......as long as it's not on the order of what the great Vladimir de Pachmann used to do. Not for nothing was he dubbed "Chopinzee" for 'the playfulness of his platform manner' grin.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2321961 - 08/30/14 06:05 PM Re: Self Chat [Re: 1RC]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7839
Originally Posted By: 1RC
I like how you put it: "the art of connecting with the audience in a relaxed way" - I would consider that the number 1 priority and put advancing skill in the very near second place.


Since I am my own main audience, that connection is relatively easy to achieve. Advancing artistry and skill are much more difficult, and are what matters to me the most.

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#2322130 - 08/31/14 05:51 AM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 939
Loc: UK
Not so, you still need to connect with the composer.

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#2322134 - 08/31/14 06:13 AM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7839
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Not so, you still need to connect with the composer.


In this forum, if you are responding to something someone posted in a thread (other than the original post), it's always a good idea to explicitly connect to the post to which you are responding in some way, so people will know. The way the message quoted above looks when read in the listing of messages, it seems you are talking to yourself, because all it referenced is your user-name.



Edited by wr (08/31/14 06:17 AM)

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#2322146 - 08/31/14 07:22 AM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 939
Loc: UK
Surely apposite? smile

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#2322149 - 08/31/14 07:38 AM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7839
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Surely apposite? smile


Just guessing that you might be responding to a post of mine...

The answer is no, it is not apposite. The reason should be obvious.

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#2322151 - 08/31/14 07:43 AM Re: Self Chat [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 939
Loc: UK
Oh. Well, it was your post. I figure the composer is always in the room. That's why I play.

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