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I'll have to see! It's worth the shot. The only other thing this Mac Mini is doing is really beneath it. It simply drives a monitor that I put on the piano desk like an open score. The monitor is pretty cool: it's a frameless, ultra slim, matte LED screen that is more or less the same size as an open Henle book. I have a pdf library of piano scores on the drive. Before playing, I use my regular laptop to navigate and choose from the score library by screen sharing. Anyway, I probably could have just used the laptop touchpad to turn pages, but that was no fun, and still necessitated removing a hand from the keyboard. Once I latched onto the idea of making this a fully hands-free experience during play, well, I couldn't leave well enough alone. I saw a few foot pedal solutions, but all were ugly and expensive. I thought it would be hilarious if it looked like a regular grand piano pedal and none did. So, I ended up getting an inexpensive but heavy duty single digital piano pedal, and soldering its jack to an arduino board I programmed to send simple commands via the mini's usb bus. So the mac mini is really just running a fancy page-turning device, hee hee: Push the pedal once, page down. Push twice within a half second, page back one. Push and hold, back to the beginning. The digital pedal sits next to my regular piano pedals as a fourth pedal. So, three do what piano pedals usually do, and the fourth has a funny cord running out the back.

Do I need help? Yes, yes I probably do. Or at least a hobby to keep me occupied. Maybe I should pick up playing the piano. I hear it's very satisfying.

Ok, so I spent a lot of time going into things tonight based on all the excellent information in this thread.

My guess is I am not going to be able to resist using some kind of software piano, so now the question really is if I'm giving anything up, sound-wise, by skipping on board options.

Viewed purely as VPCs and nothing more (i.e. ignore everything that the RD800, MP11, and the CP4 offer other than as a midi controller), are any of these keyboards clearly better than the other as an acoustic replacement? I ask because the VPC1 is the heaviest of all of them other than the MP11 and does the least. So it's possible the VPC1 really is the most "grand like" keyboard but just not really for everybody because it's not capable of being a standalone piano. Or, maybe it's just unnecessarily heavy and they all are basically as grand-action like as the next.

So, assuming I am willing (likely, even) to just get Pianoteq/True Keys/ivory II anyway, is there something still worth having in the on-board sounds other than convenience? Like, maybe no matter what I do, software-wise, there's just something you can't replicate about on-board processing. Because, hey, convenience? Pshaw. If I need an instrument I can sit in front of and play without having to boot and connect peripherals, I can sit in front my acoustic. It doesn't even have an on/off button! Genius!

@TwoSnowflakes

The Mac mini is perfectly fine. Unless you have a very old model, a recent Mac mini outperform the Intel NUC. In addition to that, in my experience OSX is better than Windows for audio latency issues.

For VPC1-MP11, I suggest you to try them both if you can. The longer keys of MP11 could make a big difference for YOU, especially if you are used to a grand piano.
Many people do not consider it a problem because they play a repertoire that does not require to go "up" on the keys. But if you play advanced classical music, it could be annoying, unless you have already a very good technique.

You can see ad interactive demo of the action here:
http://www.kawaivpc.com/en/features/
http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11/detail/touch/

For Pianoteq vs sampled libraries. Well Pianoteq is a hate/love topic on its own. Many love it because its responsiveness, many detest it cause its sound is objectively "artificial". Fortunately there' a free trial.
However in the software piano world, there's no a plug-and-play solution. The risk is that you will end up spending (losing) time and money on settings things up (velocity curves, reverbs ...) or buying different instrument.
If you have a grand piano and the digital is only you secondary instrument, I don't know if I would bother with a software piano.

I think the only real aspect of the MP11's action that's superior over the VPC1's is the longer pivot point. But the MP11's action is not just the VPC1's action with a longer pivot point they both feel quite different and have different key textures. Which feels more realistic is subjective. I prefer the action in the VPC1 as it feels more like a real piano to me but can't deny having that longer pivot point in the MP11 is nice.

Twosnowflakes
Really, you should try to play each of the models that you're considering, if possible. Each of them feel very realistic and offer as close to an authentic piano feel as you can currently find. But like any two acoustic grand pianos, they do feel different from each other. While you would probably be satisfied with any of them, the only way to really know which one best speaks to you is to try them out for yourself.

Warm Regards

Twosnowflakes.... You're one of those that gets us thinking vicariously through you. Gee....if I could do anything....gee....



This is one reason to have something with onboard sounds. Even if you use software piano most of the time. If you ever want to. It's easier to take it with you somewhere and use.
Yet, with the software piano. You can have different piano sounds. Basically different pianos. For instance; something good for Ragtime.

Basically.....I don't think you're losing anything as far as sound from a software piano. The sky is the limit and they just keep getting better.



I know I didn't like the PX-150 only for this reason. I'd already gotten used to longer keys. (I don't play anything advanced, yet.)
I do have to admit. I was playing on an old Roland at my lessons. It didn't bother me to translate from at home.
You really should compare and judge for yourself. The keys make a big difference. Again.... You really should find a way to try out that Ravensworks VPC. Might be well worth the money.
I can't help but think the Ravenworks has given Piano Technicians an idea. To offer refinement of the high end Kawai DP actions. Or customize them to your liking...weight, etc.

Ditto - literally! The Eris/Roland combo sounds incredible.

However, the MP11 might be the ideal board for your first requirements of action. As heavy as it is, you say you don't care if it's impractical to move. Lastly, you want future proof. Well, MP11 still can be a heck of nice controller 10 years from now.

On specs, it sounds like the Kawai stands the best chance of being my play, whether it be the MP11 or the VPC1.

I'm not entirely certain where I can go to demo it, though. Kawai is weirdly difficult to find around here. I'm familiar enough with the Roland through the V-Piano, assuming the keyboard is largely the same. I think for now I'm going to set aside the Yamaha as a choice. It doesn't appear to be lighting the world on fire and I'm not intrinsically a fan of Yamaha or anything.

One thing I could do is get the VPC1, set it up with True Keys Piano, and wait patiently for the VPC2, and/or get the MP11.

You may want to consider checking out the Yamaha P-155 (or the new model, the P-255).

At the $1000.00 price point, I found its action to be superior to others in the store. It's on board speakers are kind of lousy, but it sounds great w headphones and it's not too heavy to pick up and carry.

EDIT--oh well! After seeing your last post which went up while I was in the middle of composing this one!

LOL, no worries! Believe me, I'm not rejecting it because I'm categorically against Yamaha, it's just that with the piano action being the important element here, it doesn't sound as if the CP4 is likely to win. Is the P255 somehow a better piano action than the action in the CP4 or the MP11?

I'm hampered by the general lack of familiarity with the different manufacturers' actions, and then the different actions within one manufacturer. Grand Feel, PHIII...it's difficult to figure them out, and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to compare them all.

You seriously can't go wrong with either of these purchases. If I were going to purchase a home digital keyboard, one that I didn't have to move about, I would have bought the MP11 or VPC1 (with software of course).



Assuming what keyboard is largely the same? And by keyboard, are you referring to the keyboard's action?

That's correct; I'm referring to the keyboard's action. My SENSE is that this is the one thing I can't change (mechanics, sensors) and the rest I can always go to software. So if the RD800 and the v-Piano are using the same underlying action and sensors, then as long as I'm happy with some version of a software piano, my experience with the feel of the v-Piano is relevant to whether or not the RD800 is for me.

Now, if there was something about the v-Piano's sound that was important to me, well, I think they differ there. But my assumption so far has been that software options are so broad that I'll find something I like enough not to be put off by the difference between digital and acoustic, and don't really need to pick a keyboard based on what's available on the board. I'm especially intrigued by the True Keys Piano software mentioned upthread. Natural sound is going to be most important. I mean, it'd be great if the keyboard had a sound on-board that I like well enough not to bother with anything else, but I'm assuming I'll want more options, at which point the convenience of having something on-board that I can tolerate is not that critical to me.

Am I understanding things correctly? If not, please tell me!

I believe the RD800 action is more advance than the V-Piano. PHA4 vs PHA3. Unless V-Piano has an "enhanced" PHA3 action specifically designed for V-Piano. IDK.

The CP4 has Yamaha's NW-GH action. P255 is GH. GH has two sensors, and the NW+GH has three (plus wooden keys, for whatever that's worth). I've played both the CP40, which has GH like the P255 and the CP4 quite a bit. The CP4 action feels lighter and more responsive than the CP40, but both are playable. Some believe that Yahama tweaks their actions over time while keeping the same names, but the GH action on the CP40 and P255 are probably exactly the same since they came out very close to each other.

I'd advise giving the CP4 a try if you have a chance, although you'd be paying a lot of money for on-board stuff it sounds like you won't use. I'm also not sure as a stage piano, Yamaha intended it to be a perfect replica of an acoustic grand action. I don't think you'd be terribly unhappy with any of the premium boards people have suggested here, especially the VPC1.

Hmm, that could be. One reason other than price that has me not considering the v-Piano is that at this point it's not exactly new. I would not be shocked if other models have surpassed it by this point in the quest to be most acoustic-like.

But the problem is that being acoustic-like is not the only raison d'etre for a keyboard, so it's not always clear to me whether any particular model has improved on that or has improved on something else that might be important to someone with different priorities.

Does anybody want to take a stab at comparing the Roland PHA4 with the Kawai Grand Feel? Or with the Kawai RM3 Grand II (though it appears from this thread and elsewhere that the RM3 Grand II is largely identical to the Grand Feel save for key length)?

Basically, I guess, it's going to come down to how the PHA4 compares to the best Kawai has to offer. After that, it's software, yes?

I know that no two acoustic actions are the same in terms of feel, either, so ultimately it will come down to preference, but it's likely I won't be able to get my hands on a Kawai before making a decision, so I'm going to have to mostly go on spec.

This is so subjective that I have to wonder if your question is too subjective to get a realistic answer that applies to your preferences. Best is to try them out if at all possible. You don't have to try the actual DP that you're interested in, just one that uses the same underlying action.

Deja vu!
Aren't we all. I don't even bother to try to remember them all. It's a mind boggling mess.

In all fairness to yourself. You really should give the high end Yamaha a try. Just for info sake if nothing else. Take all info into account. Then make a decision.

On trying out...the three or two sensor. I myself find it most important when playing very soft repeats. I don't like to let up on the key more than I have to. Then, makes it easier when playing faster repeats. I find I really love the three sensors.

EDIT: I really don't think you'll be disappointed in the Kawai. Whether you choose MP11 or VPC. I bought without trying myself. I have a VPC. Very happy with it.
I'm guessing you won't even think about the Ravensworks VPC. I wanted to know somebody who had one. ... Doh!

That's really going to be a matter of personal taste, no one else can answer that for you. But if you were happy playing the V-Piano, I think you can expect to be happy with the other high end Rolands. (And you might me just as happy with the FP80 as with the more expensive RD800, and the FP80 does have the built in speakers that give you the advantage of just "turn on and play" if there are times that could be convenient.)

Whether you'd be even happier with a Kawai is something no one else can answer for you. You might find it closer to what you want in some ways, but not as close in others. Even among actual grand pianos, people's opinions differ as to which has the better action. And being "closest to the feel of a grand" may not be the ultimate virtue if it is the closest to a grand that you don't particularly like.

I haven't yet played the Kawais under discussion here. But going a generation back, I preferred the feel of Roland's FP-7F to the Kawai MP-10. I'm not sure you could quantify which is closer to a grand, it might depend on which grand you were comparing to and what aspects of touch you were most sensitive to. I just know what I enjoyed playing more, that the Kawai felt kind of heavy and sluggish to me, the Roland was a lighter, quicker action. But I haven't yet played the ES7 or MP11, and I know there are people who prefer one or both of those to the MP10 as well.

What? No, I think I totally would! It's the same company as the True Keys Piano, right? If I'm being honest with myself, there's an overwhelming likelihood I'll end up buying it.