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#2322095 - 08/31/14 01:34 AM EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
I was sold that product to clean bronze.

It is an acid but soft..

300g for 1"liter hot water (would not be surprised if it was for 5liuters as for one more than 50gms do not dissolve

You make the bath for caster, pedal, handles, all those oxides parts that make so much dirt when cleaned. After some time, use a rag. All corrosion, old protective coat., is easy to clean, without rubbing strong, some brown or white Scotch Brite does it well.

No black on the hands, I aggressive on parts (patina preserved)

Non toxic. It is a counter poison and food preservation product..

Hope useful...
Made a long plastic tank for hinges.
Rinse with water/soap or light soda

Really appreciate to clean while keeping the patina if wanted... Parts do not look "new" to see with acids, but shine and clean. Better shine at demand with buffing or other products rub

Keep the solute for future uses...
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#2322100 - 08/31/14 01:42 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2316
Loc: Mexico City
I use citric acid, 25 grs., in one liter of boiling water, but it does not preserve patina. It cleans in seconds, no rubbing needed.

What is EDTA?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2322101 - 08/31/14 01:43 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2316
Loc: Mexico City
I use citric acid, 25 grs. in one liter of boiling water. But it does not preserve patina. It cleans in seconds, no rubbing needed.

What is EDTA?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2322117 - 08/31/14 03:57 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Although Isaac is technically not incorrect in calling EDTA (ethylene diamine tetraacetic acid) an acid, first and foremost it is a chelating agent. [Edit: yes, "soft" acid is a good description.]

Complexing or chelating agents arrange themselves as "cages" around ions in solution. This helps to get ions into solution, and also to keep them there. This is why EDTA is also given to patients who have ingested toxic metals.

EDTA will not oxidize and dissolve metal (i.e. it will not etch or corrode good metal), but it will remove any layer from the metal that is already oxidized, such as verdigris, tarnish, scale, etc.

@ Rafael: Citric acid, by the way, is also a good chelating agent. Just like EDTA, it has several carboxylic acid groups that can arrange themselves as a "cage" around a metal ion. [Edit: citric acid is also quite "soft", i.e. a weak organic acid.]

Hope this helps to explain the chemistry involved.


Edited by Mark R. (08/31/14 04:01 AM)
Edit Reason: given in post
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#2322119 - 08/31/14 04:11 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2316
Loc: Mexico City
Thanks Mark R.

Where is EDTA sold? Drugstores maybe?

I would like to give it a try!



Edited by Gadzar (08/31/14 04:13 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2322135 - 08/31/14 06:16 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Hi Gadzar,

I would think that if anyone has EDTA, a drugstore should have it. It's really not a hazardous chemical, so I hope you would be able to find some. (It's also used in many cosmetic and hygiene products.)

Alternately, you could even ask at a hardware store?

Isaac, where did you get yours?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2322141 - 08/31/14 06:45 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2316
Loc: Mexico City
Ok. Thanks.

Is it applied cold or must I heat it?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2322153 - 08/31/14 07:49 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
Hi I am supposed to warm it but it is not so easy, so I use it warm first time, then cold.
Thanks for the added info Mark.
Don't you think 300gms is for way more than one liter? It saturated soon.

I bought it from one of those rare shops selling products for furniture finishing (old traditional. products)

They sell a lot of reactives, surfactants, shellacs and rosins solvents, lot of stuff and ready to use polishes - kind of shop that make business with the industry for large quantities, and maintain a shop in Paris where retail is sold.

Now we begin to see web based similar places, with less choices but still the most common chemicals and other less easy to
find elsewhere.

I choosed to buy the base products to make anti silicon/crater agent, or retarder for when the day is warm, it is way cheaper to make the mixes than buying the ready to use products.

I dont like spraying much , anyway...



Edited by Olek (08/31/14 05:43 PM)
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#2322198 - 08/31/14 10:53 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Isaac,

Yes, my chemist's intuition tells me that 50 g per litre should be more than enough. Possibly, you can use even less, seeing that you are prepared to do some mechanical scrubbing (i.e. rubbing with a cloth or sponge). If I find a moment, I can read up on typical EDTA concentrations, and post my findings here.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2322334 - 08/31/14 05:50 PM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Mark R.]
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Isaac,

Yes, my chemist's intuition tells me that 50 g per litre should be more than enough. Possibly, you can use even less, seeing that you are prepared to do some mechanical scrubbing (i.e. rubbing with a cloth or sponge). If I find a moment, I can read up on typical EDTA concentrations, and post my findings here.


Yes, thanks, at 300gms liter, it is reallly concentrate an aggressive for the skin.

I wash rince well with some soda solution, befaore clean water, not so much for brass/bronze but the steel parts once treated in the bathy ten to oxyde. I dry everything welll with compresse air.

That prouct must be ideal for the handles or candle holder with molded decorative shapes, keeping the patina allow to avoid the too clean result if using classical acids. (more nitric and chloridric acid than citric, possibly but anything may work I think)
That said it is easy to get some patina back, the product escapes me but again a reactive (caustic products ?) that blacken the bottom of the decorative parts.
_________________________
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

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#2322499 - 09/01/14 03:53 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
That provider is somewhat imprecise in its explanations. Now they answered me they use 100g liter EDTA.in warm water. to clean paintings (gold plating on the frames I suppose, what is done with "gold leaf" as some ancient piano plates (Erard, I think).

Never take what they say too seriously.


Edited by Olek (09/01/14 03:55 AM)
_________________________
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

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#2322519 - 09/01/14 06:03 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
Mark

May be you know if Nigrosin (alcohol) is the same product that black "fushin" ?

ANy idea ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchsine

The term Fushine seem to be incorrectly used for all the dies we can use in alcohol. ("green fushine, blue fushine, black fushine")

Now for the black, is Nigrosin anilin dye ?

(I buy one about 12 for 100 gms, the other about 19 for 20 gms !! but the last provider is just abusing generally speaking as long they are not dealing with somewhat large industrial company (Laverdure, in Paris about 40 for one liter shellac based polish frown )

Best regards

I OLEG


Edited by Olek (09/01/14 06:07 AM)
_________________________
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

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#2322528 - 09/01/14 06:35 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Hi Isaac,

[Edit: didn't see your last post. This response is about the EDTA. I'll come back to the dyes later.]

From what I could find, 1 to 5% should be enough. That's 10 to 50g per litre.

I presume that what you have, is disodium or tetrasodium EDTA, i.e. the partial or complete sodium salt. Pure EDTA is hardly soluble in water (only about 0.5 g per litre). The disodium and tetrasodium salts are soluble (at room temperature): disodium to about 10%, tetrasodium even up to about 50%.

Side remark: EDTA is not environmentally friendly, because it mobilizes heavy metals and is not readily biodegradable.


Edited by Mark R. (09/01/14 06:37 AM)
Edit Reason: given in post.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2322541 - 09/01/14 07:14 AM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Olek]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Hi Isaac,

I'm not very familiar with dyes. Nigrosin appears to be a whole family of black and dark blue dyes, that are made by oxidation of aniline. So, in answer to the one question: yes, nigrosin is an aniline dye.

The terms "black fuchsine", "blue fuchsine" and "green fuchsine" are, technically speaking, misnomers, as fuchsine is a red dye. But: one must add that fuchsine is also an aniline dye.

So, it is quite possible that manufacturers use "fuchsine" as a synonym for aniline dye. If this is the case, then "black fuchsine" could be the same dye as nigrosin.

But I can't say for sure.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2322762 - 09/01/14 05:21 PM Re: EDTA solution to clean pedals, handles, etc [Re: Mark R.]
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Hi Isaac,

I'm not very familiar with dyes. Nigrosin appears to be a whole family of black and dark blue dyes, that are made by oxidation of aniline. So, in answer to the one question: yes, nigrosin is an aniline dye.

The terms "black fuchsine", "blue fuchsine" and "green fuchsine" are, technically speaking, misnomers, as fuchsine is a red dye. But: one must add that fuchsine is also an aniline dye.

So, it is quite possible that manufacturers use "fuchsine" as a synonym for aniline dye. If this is the case, then "black fuchsine" could be the same dye as nigrosin.

But I can't say for sure.


Great answer Mark, thank you so much.

Regards
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Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
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