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#2322114 - Yesterday at 03:07 AM Bosendorfer 275
PhilipInChina Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/19/13
Posts: 809
Loc: China
When was the 275 discontinued?


Edited by PhilipInChina (Yesterday at 04:21 AM)
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#2322121 - Yesterday at 04:34 AM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1213
Loc: The Netherlands
In the early 2000's, it was replaced by the 280.
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#2322122 - Yesterday at 04:39 AM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
PhilipInChina Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/19/13
Posts: 809
Loc: China
Thank you
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#2322199 - Yesterday at 11:00 AM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5044
The Bösendorfer 275 had a more distinctive Bösendorfer bell-like quality to its tone than its replacement 280, which has been somewhat 'normalized' for those who dislike the former's tonal characteristics.

BIS made an extensive integral series of CD recordings on their 'house' 275 of the complete piano music of Sibelius and Grieg in the 1980s-2000s:
http://youtu.be/yZceTnU6iQ4

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#2322225 - Yesterday at 12:30 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1170
Also, the 275 went down to a bottom F, and had the traditional Bosendorfer shape. The 280 is a standard shape, and has an 88 note keyboard. I don't think it sounds as nice. I like the 290 and the 225.

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#2322265 - Yesterday at 02:45 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1213
Loc: The Netherlands
I agree with you, the 280 is somewhat atypical for Bosendörfer. The 290 and 225 seem to have been modeled after the 275 if I'm not mistaken. I LOVE the 225, haven't heard an imperial in concert yet unfortunately.
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#2322275 - Yesterday at 03:04 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1149
Loc: Manywheres
The 280 is/was a failed marketing concept to be sound competitive on stage with other manufactures. The reason why it will sonically never be successful is that, if they want to remain true to the Viennese sound philosophy, Bösendorfer can not also be made into a focused sounding piano that also projects well in a big hall. They are trying to cheat physics by maintaining their signature sound while simultaneously increasing the projection/focus.

That project was the brainchild of a designer that doesn't understand why pianos sound the way they do. They continue to experiment with the design, and it is getting better, but it will never be something special unless they create a different sound altogether.

It is a shame that the 275 was gotten rid of. <----that was a marvellous piano. For that matter, so too was the 250!!!
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#2322287 - Yesterday at 03:49 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2705
Loc: Atlanta, GA
The 275 has numerous, tremendous strengths, but also weaknesses in the treble that could not be overcome through design improvements. The 275 evolved several times during its long tenure, but ultimately Bösendorfer knew they had to start over to take this instrument further. And the 280 has been constantly evolving since its introduction. It still is - there are surprises around the corner.

I disagree with A443's assessment that raw "concerto" power and Viennese tone are mutually exclusive. The rest of his opinion is forceful, but just that, his opinion.

The 280 is not the 290...why build another? But there are internal factors (3 owners since its inception) and external factors (dot.com bubble, global recession) that have altered the course of its R&D. The ongoing development may achieve this magical, elusive result, but the current 280 is already an incredibly refined alternative to S&S or Y's concert grands. Why do you think S&S fights so hard not to even let them in the buildings?
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#2322298 - Yesterday at 04:12 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PianoWorksATL]
Karl Watson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 325
Friends:

I've always had a very strong affection for the old 275. Whatever their flaws, they were definitely NOT Steinways but were Bosendorfers X 10. They had a wonderful, unique and distinctive voice. Am I right in thinking that one may still be had on special order ?

K

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#2322305 - Yesterday at 04:29 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1149
Loc: Manywheres
The 275 can't be improved upon in the treble because that was part of the Bösendorfer's sound signature--which was intended for small halls! It's for a similar reasons that the 290 is not often chosen as a concerto piano, even in the smaller european halls.

One must remember: the concert venues here in Vienna are tiny compared to the USA. This has historically been reflected in the design and construction of the hundreds of Viennese piano makers that used to produce here in the city. BTW, Bösendorfer does not define the Viennese sound, they are a tiny part of the piano side of it--it is not limited to piano though: the strings follow the same tradition. A large focused sound that projects far into a huge hall has NOTHING to do with the Viennese aesthetics of musicality and performance.

I am a HUGE Bösendorfer fan, but the 280 is no comparison to D. ROTFL...[literally]...thanks for the laugh though! You won't often see me writing that S&S is good/better at anything, but in this case: the 280 need not yet apply!

Every step a designer takes towards a more focused tone that projects, is a step in the opposite direction of the Viennese sound--that is not a bad thing, it is simply a matter of physics/design. If Bösendorfer wants to be stage/concerto competitive, that is exactly what they will need to do...but it then it can't also sound Viennese. If anyone would like to discuss why this is a fact--and not an opinion--I'm happy to discuss how piano design influences these issues. Seriously, I would be very happy for people to know more how piano design effects the tone and why! thumb
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Klavierbaukünstler
des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest.

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#2322308 - Yesterday at 04:35 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1328
Loc: California
Some people really like the sound of the 280. I don't think anyone will say it's a bad piano.

Personally I prefer the 290, but preferences are preferences
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Poetry is rhythm.

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#2322310 - Yesterday at 04:37 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: Karl Watson]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1149
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson
I've always had a very strong affection for the old 275. Whatever their flaws, they were definitely NOT Steinways but were Bosendorfers X 10. They had a wonderful, unique and distinctive voice. Am I right in thinking that one may still be had on special order ?
Your comments are right on par with every professional pianist here in Vienna that I have ever spoken with. They all say the same thing about the 275, and they also very much dislike the 280. I have never heard a positive comment about the 280...but that is my experience.

As has been noted, they are still trying to find the right design that will work as intended. If it were me, I would have waited until I got it right before I started pushing in on so many pianists and dealers...but that is just me.

Nope, the 275 is dead and gone. <----another great piano design that fell victim to commercialism and marketing! I'm not arguing that they should have kept the 275 and also made a 280 that is stage competitive, because that would not have been very economical, but the point remains: musical excellence is no longer the driving force in the piano industry, and that is a shame. A better balance should be found for the sake of the art.


Edited by A443 (Yesterday at 04:50 PM)
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Klavierbaukünstler
des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest.

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#2322364 - Yesterday at 06:38 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: A443]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1328
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson
I've always had a very strong affection for the old 275. Whatever their flaws, they were definitely NOT Steinways but were Bosendorfers X 10. They had a wonderful, unique and distinctive voice. Am I right in thinking that one may still be had on special order ?
Your comments are right on par with every professional pianist here in Vienna that I have ever spoken with. They all say the same thing about the 275, and they also very much dislike the 280. I have never heard a positive comment about the 280...but that is my experience.

Then you haven't been paying attention lol.....there have been positive comments about the 280 here on pianoworld.com, by pianists who I would say are rather skilled.
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#2322367 - Yesterday at 06:50 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: phantomFive]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1149
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Then you haven't been paying attention lol.....there have been positive comments about the 280 here on pianoworld.com, by pianists who I would say are rather skilled.
Indeed, I've only paid attention to the professional pianists in and around the city; they are still very familiar with the 275--those pianists can compare between the old and the new, because they are routinely confronted with both models. I doubt a similar situation exists on any meaningful scale outside Austria. smirk
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Klavierbaukünstler
des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest.

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#2322373 - Yesterday at 07:20 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: A443]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1328
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Then you haven't been paying attention lol.....there have been positive comments about the 280 here on pianoworld.com, by pianists who I would say are rather skilled.
Indeed, I've only paid attention to the professional pianists in and around the city; they are still very familiar with the 275--those pianists can compare between the old and the new, because they are routinely confronted with both models. I doubt a similar situation exists on any meaningful scale outside Austria. smirk

So are you saying the 280 is a bad piano? Maybe my earlier statement was wrong, then.
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Poetry is rhythm.

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#2322698 - Today at 02:43 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: phantomFive]
Rich Galassini Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9200
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

So are you saying the 280 is a bad piano? Maybe my earlier statement was wrong, then.


phantomFive,

Although I am not speaking for A443, I do suspect that he is saying that to the Viennese, it is a departure from what Bosendorfer has done.

He is correct.

However, the 280 has been embraced by many more musicians than those who have rejected it on the basis that A443 quotes. The fact is that right here in Philadelphia, the 280 has been played in recital by Van Cliburn contestants and a Van Cliburn winner, it has been chosen for world class concert pianists, and used by very fine orchestras in our region.

It has also been refined since its introduction.

It was designed for a specific purpose and it fills that purpose beautifully and differently than a 9 footer from other companies. It definitely has a performance different from the 275. I don't look at that as a betrayal of their history anymore than I looked at NY S&S using Renner actions in their American B and D as some kind of betrayal, but we all have our perspectives.

I respect A443s perspective.

As an aside, it has also been chosen by a good number of avid musicians for their homes, many of whom had no idea they would choose a concert grand.

My 2 cents,
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Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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#2322699 - Today at 02:49 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
Rich Galassini Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9200
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
To A443,

I will be in Vienna again late this year. If you are there at that time I would love to meet you in person.
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Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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#2322813 - Today at 07:20 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: PhilipInChina]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1149
Loc: Manywheres
The problem with the 280, in the this part of the world: it was forced onto the pianists long before it should have been (i.e., it wasn't ready yet). I have seen changes with the model, but it is difficult to recover from that initial experience. They are still learning. If they keep an open mind and listen to the performers and piano builders in the company, anything is possible. It must be a team effort in order to be successful. IMHO.

Rich Galassini, thank you so much for your posts; it was good to read you. Unfortunately, I don't like to winter here in Wien (i.e., there is not enough sunlight and the people become very difficult to deal with)--I prefer to find myself in the Tokyo ramen shops during that time of the year. BTW, if you are looking for an outstanding place to eat while you are in Wien, I would highly recommend Mraz und Sohn--the 9-course with the wine pairing is absolutely outstanding. It is by far my favourite restaurant in the city. HINT: the best table is in the kitchen! wink
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler
des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest.

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#2322848 - Today at 08:49 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: A443]
Rich Galassini Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9200
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: A443
The problem with the 280, in the this part of the world: it was forced onto the pianists long before it should have been (i.e., it wasn't ready yet). I have seen changes with the model, but it is difficult to recover from that initial experience. They are still learning. If they keep an open mind and listen to the performers and piano builders in the company, anything is possible. It must be a team effort in order to be successful. IMHO.


I understand where you are coming from, A443. Thank you for adding this.

Originally Posted By: A443
Rich Galassini, thank you so much for your posts; it was good to read you. Unfortunately, I don't like to winter here in Wien (i.e., there is not enough sunlight and the people become very difficult to deal with)--I prefer to find myself in the Tokyo ramen shops during that time of the year. BTW, if you are looking for an outstanding place to eat while you are in Wien, I would highly recommend Mraz und Sohn--the 9-course with the wine pairing is absolutely outstanding. It is by far my favourite restaurant in the city. HINT: the best table is in the kitchen! wink


My favorite thing about Vienna is that you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting world class art. Even the storm drains are beautiful to behold!

Also, you cannot swing an Imperial without striking a world class musician who is about to perform.

I love the food in Vienna and I will look for Mraz and Sohn. Danke dem A443!
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Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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#2322860 - Today at 09:30 PM Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: Rich Galassini]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5044
I got hooked on Bösendorfer - especially the Imperial 290 - ever since I landed in Wien while Inter-Railing around Europe as an impoverished student in my early twenties, and invited myself into the Bösendorfer showroom at Bösendorferstraße, where the proprietor invited me to make myself at home grin, and try out all the pianos.

I was immediately enamored by the unique Bösendorfer sound - so different from the Yamaha uprights I'd been practising on - and rapidly worked my way through all the grands, including the 275, until I reached the biggie beside the showroom window, on which I played until well past closing time. Despite my scruffy appearance which betrayed my financial (and social) status, the elegant gentleman let me played on....and on, and on, until he regretfully had to inform me that it was half an hour past closing time. It probably helped that I was playing music by all the great composers who made their home in Vienna, and who were honored with statues in that city.

I left clutching a lovely brochure of the various Bösendorfer grands, pictured within the grand surroundings of Schönbrunn Palace. To this day, I've kept that brochure to remind me of the memorable occasion when I played the king of pianos for the first time...... thumb

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#2322865 - 47 minutes 15 seconds ago Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: Rich Galassini]
Furtwangler Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1529
Loc: Danville, California
Originally Posted By: Rich Galassini
Originally Posted By: A443
The problem with the 280, in the this part of the world: it was forced onto the pianists long before it should have been (i.e., it wasn't ready yet). I have seen changes with the model, but it is difficult to recover from that initial experience. They are still learning. If they keep an open mind and listen to the performers and piano builders in the company, anything is possible. It must be a team effort in order to be successful. IMHO.


I understand where you are coming from, A443. Thank you for adding this.

Originally Posted By: A443
Rich Galassini, thank you so much for your posts; it was good to read you. Unfortunately, I don't like to winter here in Wien (i.e., there is not enough sunlight and the people become very difficult to deal with)--I prefer to find myself in the Tokyo ramen shops during that time of the year. BTW, if you are looking for an outstanding place to eat while you are in Wien, I would highly recommend Mraz und Sohn--the 9-course with the wine pairing is absolutely outstanding. It is by far my favourite restaurant in the city. HINT: the best table is in the kitchen! wink


My favorite thing about Vienna is that you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting world class art. Even the storm drains are beautiful to behold!

Also, you cannot swing an Imperial without striking a world class musician who is about to perform.

I love the food in Vienna and I will look for Mraz and Sohn. Danke dem A443!


Rich

I may be in Vienna next year myself!

Question: Where do you get your dead cats?

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#2322880 - 18 minutes 21 seconds ago Re: Bosendorfer 275 [Re: Furtwangler]
Rich Galassini Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9200
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler


Rich

I may be in Vienna next year myself!

Question: Where do you get your dead cats?



Oh that is the simple part. Just go to "Der Tote Katze Haus". They are so helpful there.
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Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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