Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Yamaha CP4 Rebate
Yamaha CP4 Rebate
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
158 registered (Anita Potter, 7notemode, accordeur, ambrozy, AllanH, 41 invisible), 1668 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2322770 - 09/01/14 05:39 PM Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1077
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
In a idealized world with a perfectly regulated piano that was capable of being perfectly regulated while using a 1 7/8" or greater blow distance as opposed to a 1 3/4" or less blow distance, what effect would it have on dynamic range and controllability?

Top
(ad 568) PTG Convention 2015 Denver
PTG Convention July 15 to 18 Denver
#2322822 - 09/01/14 07:56 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
depend of the mass and lenght of shank (plus flexibility)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2322892 - 09/01/14 11:48 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
Tunewerk Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 483
Loc: Boston, MA
Increased dynamic range and decreased controllability.

The downweight at the beginning of the keystroke rises exponentially with increased strike distance, as the vertical component at the wippen transfers increasing amounts of its vertical component to the horizontal component of the hammer rotation. This leads to increases in friction as well.

To the pianist, this feels like an increasingly powerful, yet volatile piano. The percentage difference in friction and leverage between the beginning and end of the keystroke widens, making the beginning of the keystroke very hard to control and then difficult to adjust the force needed for pianissimo playing.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

Top
#2322905 - 09/02/14 12:48 AM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
Gadzar Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2072
Loc: Mexico City
I guess there are other parameters to consider. When you speak of dynamic range and controllability I immediately think in a concert grand, but not at all in blow distance.

In a concert grand the main difference is the size. The size of the keys in particular.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

Top
#2322927 - 09/02/14 02:49 AM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: Tunewerk]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
Increased dynamic range and decreased controllability.

The downweight at the beginning of the keystroke rises exponentially with increased strike distance, as the vertical component at the wippen transfers increasing amounts of its vertical component to the horizontal component of the hammer rotation. This leads to increases in friction as well.

To the pianist, this feels like an increasingly powerful, yet volatile piano. The percentage difference in friction and leverage between the beginning and end of the keystroke widens, making the beginning of the keystroke very hard to control and then difficult to adjust the force needed for pianissimo playing.


Action ratio evolve toward the smaller during stroke do beginning without added resistance is important.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2323062 - 09/02/14 10:15 AM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: Gadzar]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1077
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
[quote=Gadzar]I guess there are other parameters to consider. When you speak of dynamic range and controllability I immediately think in a concert grand, but not at all in blow distance.

In a concert grand the main difference is the size. The size of the keys in particular.

[/quote]

Let us assume that all other parameters are left unchanged. I am assuming a grand piano.

The question could be worded another way. If you can properly regulate the action at either blow distance extreme, why do you choose one distance over the other?

Top
#2323068 - 09/02/14 10:30 AM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22382
Loc: Oakland
Steinway specs are that the hammer blow distance is set to give a certain aftertouch, rather than a specific distance to the strings.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2323074 - 09/02/14 10:48 AM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: BDB]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1077
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
[quote=BDB]Steinway specs are that the hammer blow distance is set to give a certain aftertouch, rather than a specific distance to the strings. [/quote]

Does maintaining a consistant aftertouch (assuming wood/felt/leather parts) cause (or necessitate) an uneven blow distance?

Edit: Hey, how come the quotes aren't correct in my posts?


Edited by prout (09/02/14 10:50 AM)

Top
#2323112 - 09/02/14 12:22 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
Tunewerk Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 483
Loc: Boston, MA
The variations in the parts themselves are taken up properly by keydip - never in blow distance. There are also many other ways to regulate the feel of aftertouch beyond this, including knuckle/jack shaping, jack position, drop adjustment, etc.

No matter what Steinway says, the importance of blow distance is kinetic energy and inertia delivery to the strings, governed by the rate of increased leverage ratio change in the parts at various distances from the strings. This governs voicing as well.

Perfect regulation and aftertouch can be achieved within a large window of blow distance variation.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

Top
#2323134 - 09/02/14 01:14 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: Tunewerk]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1077
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
[quote=Tunewerk]The variations in the parts themselves are taken up properly by keydip - never in blow distance. There are also many other ways to regulate the feel of aftertouch beyond this, including knuckle/jack shaping, jack position, drop adjustment, etc.

No matter what Steinway says, the importance of blow distance is kinetic energy and inertia delivery to the strings, governed by the rate of increased leverage ratio change in the parts at various distances from the strings. This governs voicing as well.

Perfect regulation and aftertouch can be achieved within a large window of blow distance variation. [/quote]

That being the case, would you reduce the blow distance, at the request of the pianist practicing or performing in an intimate venue, to reduce the maximum energy available and give the pianist more control over the soft end of the dynamic range?

Top
#2323150 - 09/02/14 02:07 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
Tunewerk Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 483
Loc: Boston, MA
Absolutely, if that was requested and paid for.. although that would be at least a full day job to do to high standards and only possible within a small window (including strike, dip and checking). Outside of that window would require a full regulation, as every spec changes in relation to the others.

For a more drastic change, the voicing would also need to be attended to (voicing becomes increasingly unstable with KE reduction), making this a certain in-depth job to do correctly and conscientiously. The worse the parts and hammers, the more time required.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

Top
#2323174 - 09/02/14 02:44 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 412
Prout, on my piano it was certainly the case that blow distance was excessive (50-55 mm at some hammers) and that it makes it louder and harder to control. I have adjusted it down to about 45-47 mm.

The downside is that I now have too much aftertouch unless I have almost 11 mm key dip. I have chosen to have key dip of 9,5 mm and too much aftertouch for now.
_________________________
Piano: Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2323326 - 09/02/14 08:07 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1077
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Thanks everyone. My M&H BB has been regulated to >1 7/8" and the shanks are almost sitting on the hammer rest. The drop screws are at almost full up.

It seems to me that regulating the action to 1 3/4" would lift the hammers off the rest, lower the drop screws and give me even more control than I have now.

Top
#2323340 - 09/02/14 08:51 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Prout, the question you asked is a very complicated one to answer in simple words. Even in diagrams it gets complicated.

For any given action geometry, there will be an ideal starting position of the hammer shank. When the whippen cushion and knuckle compress (i.e, and the hammers are filed), the technician often goes to the capstan to make the necessary adjustment to compensate. Actually, this is wrong: the capstan is for tiny adjustments. The compression at the whippen and knuckle should be addressed by bolstering.

Why?!?

By screwing the capstan higher, the contact point between the capstan and the whippen in the starting position is elevated to a higher position, thus crossing the lines-of-centre earlier in the keystroke. This is bad thing: it means that there will now be less control at the end of the keystroke (i.e., there will be increased horizontal motion, and proportionally less vertical motion). The same is true with the knuckle.

Action geometry and alignment is much more complicated that just setting the stack correctly.

How does this apply to your situation? It is hard to tell without knowing what is actually going on. But, in order for your action to function properly (i.e., at it's best) the actual distance that the hammer travels is secondary. The parts will dictate where this must be.

The real question is: how much aftertouch do you have? This will be an indicator if you are close to where you should be or not.

The drop screws have nothing to do with the rest of the discussion. The drop screw is usually timed to match the movement of the escapement (i.e., when done correctly, the jack will 'appear' to move up and forward at the same moment when doing the regulation).
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2323403 - 09/02/14 10:47 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5372
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: prout
In a idealized world with a perfectly regulated piano that was capable of being perfectly regulated while using a 1 7/8" or greater blow distance as opposed to a 1 3/4" or less blow distance, what effect would it have on dynamic range and controllability?

Not one that will be discernable to the human ear. Assuming the action is otherwise well regulated, pianissimo will still be pianissimo and forte will be limited primarily by key flex. In other words, the action will still run into saturation at pretty much the same point regardless the small change in blow distance.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#2323758 - 09/03/14 04:43 PM Re: Hammer blow distance, dynamic range, controllability [Re: prout]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1077
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Again, thank you all for your comments and information.

I assume that very small differences in blow distance and key dip are preferable if they ensure a consistent aftertouch 'feel'.

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
Composer Statuettes
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Studiologic SL88
by JFP
05/03/15 02:12 PM
Dog for sale.
by TwoSnowflakes
05/03/15 11:52 AM
A great way to practice accompanying...
by look_alive
05/03/15 11:29 AM
Is your SSD actually better????
by rnaple
05/03/15 10:51 AM
Disk orchestra collection disks
by Tweedpipe
05/03/15 09:56 AM
What's Hot!!
New Forum for Selling Your Products or Services
--------------------
Historic Piano Documents
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Forum Stats
79,130 Registered Members
44 Forums
163,734 Topics
2,402,525 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission