Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Educating Lucas

Lucas,

That was the best comment I have read in ages!

I'm willing to kick in a couple of hundred dollars to fund the event. I think it's an awesome idea.

A crowd-sourced pissing match.

What an idea !!!

Exxxxcellent!... yUooooose the fohrse, Luke!

In case you didn't notice, the Kawai KG-2E grand was at Madison Area Technical College, not at Lucas' high school. If you want to work on it there, you will have to get permission from the college which would include the vetting of your credentials. You will have to work on the piano when it is not in use for instruction and that will not be until next January.

If you want to make that piano sound better, you will have to be prepared to restring the treble and high treble which would include the dressing of the capo bars and re-notching and repinning the bridges.

Then, you will have to reshape and voice hammers which have been in heavy and constant use for 24 years. That would probably mean that those hammers need replacement and that would include shanks, flanges and knuckles. You will have to pay all of the expenses because the college won't.

If you still want to go through with it all, you might be able to make the piano sound better once you get the newly strung section up to pitch but that won't last long at all. The piano is now about +6 cents in pitch, so you have another +6 cents to go if you are to reach what you profess to be your ideal pitch but the college faculty will probably object to such a high pitch, that is, if you were to work on it during the next month which you cannot.

Whatever pitch you do decide to tune it at, the piano will be at least 20 cents lower than that and completely out of tune by next January when it will be scheduled to be tuned again. It would be a mistake and folly to tune it at +12 cents at that time of year because it will inevitably rise to about +35 cents by next Summer and that would greatly over stress the instrument and do far more harm than good.

It won't ever sound like the piano in the videos you posted, no matter what you do. It is a short scaled piano, so you will not get the Bass to sound anything like what it does on the larger, far more expensive pianos that you may be used to working with. You cannot change that and you cannot voice the high inharmonicity from the Bass.

As for me inserting you in this discussion, I think it is abundantly clear that you inserted yourself or rather imposed yourself if my opinion matters. All comments are welcome, of course, including constructive criticism as Hakki suggested. What you wrote, in my opinion was more of a put down.

Any really good piano technician never stops learning and improves throughout his or her lifetime. Certainly, Lucas will do that and I have told him many times that he should seek to learn from as large a pool of sources as possible. Any good piano technician does.

The techniques I taught Lucas so far were a place for him to begin. I have helped countless people gain the skills necessary to pass the PTG tuning exam. All were professional piano technicians but many whom I have helped still lacked the skills necessary to pass that exam. What I provided were the insights to actually accomplish what they needed and wanted but which they had not understood until that time.

Of course, what I taught them were not the one and only techniques that there are but they were the ones that worked for them at the time they needed techniques which they could understand and put to use with consistent and successful results.

If you want to be helpful and useful to Lucas or any other aspiring or struggling technician, then I would suggest that you offer some tips and techniques that would actually provide some benefit, not what you have said and done so far.

Aw come on Bill. Give A443 a chance. I believe in you A443.

And let's not forget what is being suggested here. A professional technician has just offered to spend a week with a 17 year old beginning piano tuner. Gone are the days when apprentices could learn in factories and get paid doing it.

Whether or not A443 can improve that piano or not, is not the question, and is not even being suggested. A443 has offered free training. No matter what happens, Lucas wins.

Anyone who tries to interfere with this process should ask themselves why they are so against it.

Yes, it was. But too many cooks spoil the broth.

I too find it sad that this thread is going off the rails.

To A443, I would suggest starting a new thread of your own about "educating" someone else. A young person much like Lucas that obviously has aptitudes. One that would make it more practical perhaps than you flying over trying to further boast about your abilities.

Another fun and educating thread would be nice.

To Mr. Bremmer. I recently got a few nasty emails from another poster here because I reacted too quickly to his post. Not A443. In retrospect, it almost seems as that poster was baiting the forum. And I caught the bait. I ignored his emails and now ignore his posts or threads.

I suggest you ignore A443 right now, even if it is only to keep your thread clean, fun, enlightening etc...

If he and you want to argue, it still would be fun in another thread.

Congrats to Lucas as well!

Yes, do not forget Lucas is still learning. If he has a teacher saying "tune this way" and then another teacher saying: "no that's wrong, do it this way..."

I think the student may get confused . I don't think it could be profitable for him.

Anyway, the decision is not mine!

Lucas,

Here is a tip for using the "Up a 3rd, up a 3rd, down a 5th" temperament sequence that I taught you. Copy the image below and if that does not work, I can send you a larger copy by e-mail. If you can fit several copies on one page, you can print out the page and either cut them up into slips or just use each image one by one as you go to tune aurally your next several pianos.



As you go through the sequence, mark each key that you have tuned such as with an "X". For the black keys, just place the "X" right under the black key.

You first have to tune the A4 and A3, then you have to tune the Contiguous Major Thirds (CM#), F3-A3-C#4-F4-A4. When you are satisfied with that, mark each of those keys.

Now, you begin the rest of the sequence (down a 5th from C#4).
Mark the key that you are going to tune before you start to tune it. When you start, you are tuning F#3 as a 5th from C#4. As you look at your keyboard chart, you see that there is only one check that you have at that point, a minor third (m3) with A3.

That is OK, though because you can compare the F#3-A3 m3 with the A3-C#4 M3 (previously tuned) and should find the F#3-C#4 5th slightly tempered and that the F#3-A3 m3 beats slightly faster than the A3-C#4 M3. The F#3-A3 m3 should also sound very similar to the C#4-F4 M3 but not quite as fast as the F4-A4 M3. Actually, right in between the two. So, even though there seems to be only one check available, there are several ways to prove that it is correct.

Next, you go "up a 3rd" from F#3 to A#3. Mark A#3. Now look at your chart and ask yourself which previously tuned note you can tune it from? The answer is F3. So, you tune A#3 from F3 as a tempered 4th. You can use the test note, C#3 and expect that the C#3-A#3 M6 will beat slightly faster than the C#3-F3 M3. You now have two chromatic M3's which you can compare for evenness. You can also compare the F3-A#3 4th and the A#3-F4 5th. The 4th should beat only very slightly more prominently than the 5th above it.

Now, you go "up a 3rd" again to D4. Mark it. Then you see that you can tune it as a 4th from A3. Then several more checks become available. Test note F3 for tempered 4th. Chromatic M3's, A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 for evenness. F3-A3 M3 and F3-D4 M6 for slight increase in speed for the M6. Compare the two 4ths F3-A#3 and A3-D4 for similarity. You also have two CMT: F#3-A#3 and A#3-D4

Now, you go "down a 5th" to G3. Mark it. You see that it forms a m3 with A#3. You can compare the two m3's, F#3-A3 and G3-A#3 for evenness. You can also compare the two 5ths, F#3-C#4 and G3-D4 for similarity.

When you go, "up a 3rd" again to B3, you will have 3 chromatic M3's to compare for evenness and three 4ths to compare for similarity plus the test note D3 for the 4th that you are tuning.

Going "up a 3rd" again to D#4 provides more chromatic M3's and more 4ths plus two CMT's: G3-B3 and B3-D#4.

The last "down a 5th" then becomes very easy because the last three notes you tune, G#3, C4 and E4 will have many possibilities for checks that you will easily see.

You may often find at the end of the sequence that there is very little if anything to correct if you correct as you go. Whenever something won't work, go back to the previous step and review it. Remember that you can make any interval wider or narrower by moving both notes slightly, not just one.

The reason why any temperament sequence does not end up with correct results is because of repeated and/or cumulative error. If you any note from one that is not quite correct, then you have carried the error over to the next note. If you also tune that note incorrectly, you have compounded the error. That is the reason why results can have 4ths and 5ths that sound "kinda, sorta, pretty even" but the M3's and M6's are uneven. Other typical erroneous results are that M3's and M6's sound pretty good but 4ths & 5ths are uneven, some sounding "better" than others.

You can also get the "wolf" dilemma: everything sounds pretty good but there is just this one obvious problem that you cannot resolve. The key to not having those problems is to be as sure as you can that each new note is correct as you go. As you saw when we were working on the Yamaha, although the initial chain of CM3's is usually quite reliable, if you can't get the next two CMT's (F#3-A#3 and A#3-D4) to fit with them, then it is a clue to re-examine the initial set of CMT's.

It is always possible for any note you tune to change a small amount without you being aware of it. A change of just a half cent will throw off those very fine checks you are doing. That is a distinct possibility with the initial set of CMT's. What you thought was 100% reliable can end up not being reliable at all of one of those notes changes even a very small amount. Therefore, good pin setting and test blows for stability are important with each string you tune.

Jean,

Maybe A-443 should go to try to help the guy in Denmark. He has been pleading for it.

I never said I was against it but A-443 specifically said he could make the Kawai at the tech college sound better and wanted to show how he would do it. I just told him what the obstacles would be, not that he shouldn't do it.

If A-443 wants to go to Lucas' school to help him, he cannot do that during school hours. He has to do it after those and then he has to do it when the piano he wants to work on is not being used by some after school activity or the room where it is will not be in use. He will also have to go through a background check just as I did just to be permitted on the school grounds.

I had to work with all of those constraints and limitations and so would anybody else.

Oh by the way, there is a Kawai grand (RX-5, I believe) at Lucas' school but before anybody does anything with it at all, the accumulated dust of years of "I only clean them if I am asked to do it and I charge for that!" will be there for you to muck through. If you blow the dust out of that one, it will look like this: (!!!)



Bring your fallout mask!

I thinks it's an RX-6. Bigger.

Bill Bremmer RPT, you've been careless with your words and your accusations--it's a distasteful habit that has followed you for years. You were given the opportunity to drop it, and you chose to continue. Please learn from that mistake.

Do you still want to challenge me and my statements (i.e., the Kawai tuning quality)? OR, do you want to stop the insults and rants, forevermore? It is your choice, but you don't get to do both. Drop it now, or play the end-game; it is your choice.

I understand you weren't expecting this to get real--as most anonymous people on the net aren't--but I am, and I am not going anywhere. Know this about me now: whenever I write/speak, I am able, willing, and ready to backup my statements--no matter the cost or the time involved. My thoughts/words are the most valuable thing I posses.

You implied no one could do better on that Kawai, and I disagree. I understand the piano has limitations, but I also know what I am capable of accomplishing with that kind of situation. We can leave it at that. But, then you forfeit the right to further insults and personal attacks. That needs stop now. OK? It's up to you. Please take your time, relax, and understand that no response is necessary. If you still want to challenge my existence, I will be at the ready--know that with all certainty.

Bill Bremmer RPT, I've read your writings for over a decade now, and have quietly had a tremendous amount of respect for what you were doing--the same too, BTW, goes for Ed Foote and many of the others. I am one of your biggest fans; it is a shame you didn't get the chance to know that before you went off on your rampage. There is no reason for you to feel threatened; I am not one of your enemies. Please reconsider your approach, forget this ever happened, and let's start anew.

I like that but if you are tuning wide 4:2 narrow 6:3, it helps to understand the m7b5 equality. (I have already shown a proof of this equality based on the stated octave size and the 3/6 equality).

After the CM3's, tuning F#3 using A3C#4 < F#3A3 < C#4F4 can be understood as
A3C#4 < C4E4 < C#4F4 (F#3A3=C4E4, m7b5 equality)

It is good to realize that F#3A3 does not bisect the CM3's, but I believe Bill referred to that briefly.

Thanks Mark,

That is good information. To tell you the truth, I did not really know exactly how fast the F#3-A3 m3 beats theoretically until very recently and it of course is affected by inharmonicity and octave size.

For example, in another thread by Mark R., he talks about the difficulty of a console sized piano that has wound strings in the low tenor. If that affects the beating of M3's then it certainly does of m3's too.

A lot of ET tuning has to do with similarity rather than strictly equal beating. Many piano technicians will say that they do not use m3's because they "cannot hear them". However, there is no reason why they should not be able to hear them if they can hear M3's. Minor 3rds are most useful from C3 to C4.

For any Rapidly Beating Interval (RBI), there is a point at which they become indiscernible simply because they beat so rapidly that the beats become an indiscernible blur. Some technicians can discern beyond what others can, to be sure.

In the articles I have written, I have spoken of the "limit of discernibility". The F4-A4 M3, for example, I consider to be "at or near the limit of discernibility". We don't usually listen to chromatic M3's in that area for that reason. We drop to M10's to cut the speed in half.

However, when constructing the initial set of CM3's, that "buzz" of some 14 beats per second is critical to proving that the three Contiguous Major Thirds (CMT) below it are correct. I used to think that the speed of the F#3-A3 m3 was very similar to the F3-A4 M3 but recently, I have been told that it lies somewhere between the C#4-F4 and F4-A4 M3's.

In any case, it is a Very Rapidly Beating Interval (VRIB). To the aural tuner (especially a beginner), the distinction between 12, 13 or 14 beats per second may not be very discernible at all. What one may well hear, however, it that the interval beats too gently and that would mean that the F#3 is too flat. It would also mean that the F#3-C#4 5th sounds a little too pure. It would also reveal that the test for the 5th, the F#3-A3 m3 and A3-C#4 M3 sound too similar.

If the F#3-C#4 5th is too tempered, the F#3-A3 m3 would be an indiscernible blur and sound "sour". There would be too much difference in the 5th test, the 5th itself would have too prominent of a beat and the F#3-A3 m3 would beat even more rapidly than the F4-A4 M3. It is all about finding that balance.

In the last of his writings, Professor Owen Jorgensen stressed the value of the m3's in Octave 3. Indeed, for the Master Tuning Committee of a PTG Tuning Exam piano, those m3's would be intensely scrutinized. Correction of those intervals can result in the very finest aural tuning corrections possible.

Therefore, as I had stated in a post to Lucas earlier today and as I coached him in his two very first attempts at aural ET last week, the "proof and correction as you go" is critical and will most often result in a temperament that is either flawless or nearly flawless once it is completed.

Yes, I have read the statement that "sequences are over rated". I do not agree. There certainly are some that check and balance better than others. I am not saying that what I came up with is the one and only best but when thinking this whole thing through 11 years ago, it is what I came up with.

I have since discovered many more checking possibilities with it than I first realized back then. The three ways to confirm that the F#3-A3 m3 is correct is an example of that. The whole thing is a fascinating as a game of chess.

I can write out all of the possibilities for each new note tuned as I did in a post earlier today for Lucas, leaving out the last several that there are to be left to the imagination. However, for a beginning student, being told as one is to "read through and understand everything in this manual before attempting to operate this device", the manual would leave most people bug-eyed after the first few paragraphs.

The keyboard chart idea that I came up with may work very well, at least for some people. Again, find out what works for you, is key. I have seen so many people, both examinees and assisting RPT's come out of a tuning exam aural evaluation session saying things like, "I never knew there could be so many checks!" Also, "I am now getting a far clearer picture of how all of the intervals affect each other".

Indeed they do. In ET or any temperament for that matter, what you give to one, you take away from the other. I was amazed at myself, in fact, when I gave a demonstration of this at the February meeting of the Madison PTG Chapter. I almost never tune ET and when I do, I use the ET via Marpurg because I like the effect of the equalized 4ths & 5ths.

However, form a cold start (and it was plenty cold that night), I set up the temperament note by note. It was a short scaled, Yamaha C2. When I made my F3-A3 M3 estimate, it must have luckily been a little slower than 7 beats per second because the estimate I made turned out to be spot on. I used a 4:2 octave for A3-A4. Also best for that kind of piano and probably for any PTG exam piano.

I got my initial CMT's on first attempt. I was lucky as I explained to the group. I explained what I would have done if I had not been. I tuned that first F#3-C#4 5th and proved that it fell right in where it belonged. I proceeded through the sequence, proving each new note as I went, listening for similarities and small differences where they applied. When I got to the end of the sequence, I played all intervals and there was not a single incident of any one that revealed itself as being out of place.

It was the kind of temperament that I know from experience would score a perfect 100 on a PTG exam. Just imagine how quick and proficient I would be with it if I did that with every piano I tune! But the fact that I rarely do it actually proves how well it works.

I was glad to see that Mark R. recently has found value in it.

Bill,

Thanks for the elaborate write-up. I know how easily a slip of the finger can occur, so I wanted to point out, also for Lukas's sake, that the abovementioned test note should read D3, not D#3.

Thanks Mark, I fixed it.

Hey A-443,

Bill has challenged you and you accepted it.

Now there is no way going back. Stand by with your word and go for it.