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#2323243 - 09/02/14 04:50 PM New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25)
Northerner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/30/14
Posts: 4
Good evening everyone!

Long time reader first time poster on the forums. Been sneaking around for a couple of months now but finally decided that I had something to contribute to this enthusiastic community. I was initially planning on telling you my story leading up to my forthcoming purchase of a brand new DP. However, due to all the twists and turns (and countless hours spent in front of all major brand DPs) leading up to my (probable) decision between a Kawai CS10 or CS7, that'll have to wait. I just don't have the digital stamina writing all down on my iPad.

Due to my apparent GAS I vacuum the web for any fresh DP info, in hope of preventing the "one week later old and obsolete model" purchase anxiety. And while doing so, I last week stumbled on the following Kawai releases in Japan;

http://www.kawai.co.jp/press/2014/0821.asp

(Hint: topic)

Just use a translation capable browser and the information should be served in tasty snack size portions.

The RH3 action looks intriguing however I doubt it'll knock the GF of my personal wooden throne.

If someone else already spied and posted info about it, I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience and unnecessary retinal fatigue I might have caused you.

Cold Swedish greetings.

/ Chris


Edited by Northerner (09/02/14 10:40 PM)
Edit Reason: Trying to make the URL clickable
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#2325280 - 09/08/14 08:16 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
LadyRoho Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 9
Very interesting- Thanks for sharing. This is also my first post- I found yours because I am also about to take the plunge with the CS7- but would be interested to hear how the RH3 compares to GF. And also i'd be interested to hear your story about choosing between the CS10/CS7- it may enlighten my descision!
Best wishes,
Ladyroho

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#2325376 - 09/08/14 01:54 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: LadyRoho]
Northerner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/30/14
Posts: 4
Hi ladyroho,
Glad to hear you're interested in the same excellent DPs I've been contemplating. I promise to tell you very detailed and thoroughly how I narrowed all the options down to the cs7 (and perhaps the cs10). I've been privileged with the possibility to play pretty much every model comparable model in the 2000 - 5000 $ price range.
Unfortunately that will have to wait for the weekend, due to a current distance to my laptop.

Stay tuned smile

If you feel like sharing your story I would be very happy to hear how you came to your current pick of DPs.

Regards
/ Chris
_________________________
Note! We've got a score to settle...

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#2325420 - 09/08/14 03:03 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
LadyRoho Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 9
Indeed, I look forward to the next installment!

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#2325475 - 09/08/14 05:48 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
Starboard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/03/14
Posts: 46
Thank you for this post! Are there any Japanese speakers that might be able to give us a human-interpreted summary of the difference between RH2 and RH3?

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#2325542 - 09/08/14 10:23 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Starboard]
Dave King Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 18
Loc: California, USA
This is what I gleaned from browser-based machine translations of the material on the Kawai Japan web site. I am not a native Japanese speaker.

The hammers of the RH2 action used on CN24, CN34, MP7, ES7 and CS4 models are grade weighted. The updated RH3 action introduced on the CN25 and CN35 models adds a counter weight toward the front of each of the 88 keys. The CN25/CN35 announcements refer to making the action more similar to a wooden grand piano keyboard action; however, on Kawai higher-end keyboard actions, this is done to lighten the perceived weight of the action when playing pianissimo. Based on the descriptions and images currently available on the Kawai web site, the RH3 and RH2 actions otherwise appear to be very similar; i.e., “Ivory Touch” key surfaces, triple sensor, same construction, etc.

The new CN25 and CN35 models have availability dates of 8 September and 6 October 2014 in Japan and presumably will replace the CN24 and CN34 in other markets at later dates. The press releases and product web pages indicate that both models get the new RH3 action, a “Concert Tuner” function and an updated music rest that can now be adjusted to three different angles. The CN35 gets two new speakers in the up direction in addition to the two speakers in the down direction on the CN34, while the CN25 gets 4 more sounds than the CN24, along with new voice assist and sound preview functions.

References:
1. Responsive Hammer Action III (RH3) – action used in newly announced CN25/CN35
(image points out “Ivory Touch” key surfaces, key weights, let-off and triple sensor)
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/cn35/img/detail/002_l.jpg

2. Close-up transparent view of weights in RH3 black and white keys
http://www.kawai.co.jp/press/2014/images/20140821-4.jpg

3. Responsive Hammer Action II (RH2) – action used in CN24/CN34, MP7, ES7 and CS4 (for comparison purposes)
http://www.kawaimp.com/mp7/detail/touch/

4. CN35 product web pages:
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/cn35/
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/cn35/detail.html#004

5. CN25 product web pages:
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/cn25/
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/cn25/detail.html#004

Note: To translate Japanese text when using Chrome or IE browsers, right click and select “translate”. However, the translations produced by both Google and Microsoft translators are marginal at best.



Edited by Dave King (09/08/14 10:55 PM)

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#2325552 - 09/08/14 11:06 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
Marcos Daniel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 190
Loc: Punta Alta, Buenos Aires, Arge...
I remember that some time ago James said that Kawai was working on a completely new line, so I hope we will see something original.
By now it is good to know that CN series has been improved.
I wonder if they augmented the pivot length of keys...

EDIT: it seems that they did not


Edited by Marcos Daniel (09/08/14 11:07 PM)

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#2325686 - 09/09/14 11:05 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
Northerner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/30/14
Posts: 4
Thank you so much for the translation and summary.
The updated action and successors in the cn series looks like a great step forward in the Kawai medium line up of DPs.

Makes you wonder if there are any other interesting updates in the pipe.
Would love an update to the already excellent ca95.

I wonder if James was referring to the previewed new cp series shown at NAMM 2014 or something completely different (drool).

Anyway, it's nice to see Kawai still making tweaks and upgrades to a already well renowned action (rh2).
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#2325697 - 09/09/14 11:46 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
LadyRoho Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 9
In exciting but unrelated news to the Kawai announcement, I ordered my CS-7 today. There was an offer for £200 off (for one week only !) which closed the gap between the CA-65 and CS-7 enough for me to justify the splurge on the beautiful cabinet. The CS-10 was out of my budget but I did get to try it out when comparing the CA-65/95 to the CS-7- While at the piano several people walked in while I was there and said "Ooh this shop sells real pianos too", which was cool.
I'm returning to the piano after 12 years away- I stopped playing when I was 18 and around Grade 8 (RCM Canada). Now living in London i've not had the space for a home piano till now- it arrives in a week or so, i'm very excited and am now shopping for accessories such as a piano lamp and browsing teachers in my area!


Edited by LadyRoho (09/09/14 11:47 AM)

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#2325755 - 09/09/14 04:21 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: LadyRoho]
Northerner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/30/14
Posts: 4
Congratulations on your new digital piano!
I'm leaning even more towards the cs7 myself. More so every day smile Looking forward to hear your first impression!

/Chris
_________________________
Note! We've got a score to settle...

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#2325796 - 09/09/14 06:13 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
LadyRoho Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 9
Thanks Chris, it should be delivered in a week or so! What is leaning you personally towards the CS-7?

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#2325815 - 09/09/14 07:41 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: LadyRoho]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 247
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: LadyRoho
In exciting but unrelated news to the Kawai announcement, I ordered my CS-7 today. There was an offer for £200 off (for one week only !) which closed the gap between the CA-65 and CS-7 enough for me to justify the splurge on the beautiful cabinet. The CS-10 was out of my budget but I did get to try it out when comparing the CA-65/95 to the CS-7- While at the piano several people walked in while I was there and said "Ooh this shop sells real pianos too", which was cool.
I'm returning to the piano after 12 years away- I stopped playing when I was 18 and around Grade 8 (RCM Canada). Now living in London i've not had the space for a home piano till now- it arrives in a week or so, i'm very excited and am now shopping for accessories such as a piano lamp and browsing teachers in my area!


There are many shops to try out Digitals and acoustics to compare around the Tottenham Court Road and Bond Street Areas. Lots of practice rooms too including Steinway and Bluthner grands at a reasonable price. Which shop did you go to for the CS7?

For teachers www.musicteachers.co.uk is the biggest directory but there are also quite a few dead profiles on
there. At your level I assume you'll need to be a lot more selective. http://www.thetutorpages.com/tutors/piano-teachers/west-london-piano-lessons/223/W is another that gives more detailed info on the teachers there.


Edited by Enthusiast (09/09/14 07:44 PM)

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#2325819 - 09/09/14 07:56 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Enthusiast]
LadyRoho Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 9
Dear Enthusiast, Many thanks for your detailed and helpful post. I tried the Kawai pianos at Rose Morris. Also to clarify, I wasn't in the market for an acoustic upright due to living in a new build apartment with cardboard for walls. I had a lovely little Otto Meister piano when learning back in Canada and hope one day to have an acoustic again-though i'd probably have to move out of London for that to happen!

I am indeed nervous about finding a teacher that is a good match. I feel like the best way to know if the relationship would work would be to meet for coffee or something similar first to see if we have rapport and if I can explain to them my limitations and expectations.I feel after so long away from the piano it would be safe to start at a grade 4ish level (perhaps?), though my main hurdle will be re-training my fingers to catch up with what my brain thinks they are capable of. The first thing i'm doing on my new piano- scales, lots of scales.


Edited by LadyRoho (09/09/14 07:59 PM)

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#2325971 - 09/10/14 09:05 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: LadyRoho]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 247
Loc: UK
Rose Morris is one of the best places to try out digitals and since they have a back room which is quiet at certain times in the day you can test the speakers too. You could compare the more advanced speaker system of the CA95 with the CS7 for example. The LX15 (in that price range) they had on discount seemed really good. They will I expect have the new CN35 and 25 on display after release as soon as they clear some of the old stock.

For teachers I would suggest having been through that process myself recently is do a few trial lessons with several teachers without making any commitments first.

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#2325981 - 09/10/14 09:55 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Enthusiast]
LadyRoho Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 9
Sage advice, thank you Enthusiast- it is reassuring to know that other people are going through the same process. I hope that things are going splendidly with your teacher!

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#2327073 - 09/13/14 08:59 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
LarryMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 63
How come and there is not official info for the CN35 from Kawai in US and Europe?

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#2327220 - 09/13/14 06:10 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: LarryMan]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3878
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By: LarryMan
How come and there is not official info for the CN35 from Kawai in US and Europe?




Because of the need to get rid of old stock.
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2327229 - 09/13/14 06:54 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: LarryMan]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: LarryMan
How come and there is not official info for the CN35 from Kawai in US and Europe?


Because the new models have only been announced by Kawai Japan, not Kawai Amaerica/Kawai Europe.

It's a similar situation with the updated Privia instruments...
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2327648 - 09/15/14 06:38 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 407
Loc: Poland
Few thoughts about this new CN series:

- CN35 can be a killer in it's price bracket and probably even in everything up to CA95 / Roland HP506 price
- wonder what will be the sound? the CN34 was bit thin, and, samples were not to inviting
- second pair of speakers is a great idea, however the main ones could be 16cm instead of 13, to have more lively sound
- counterweights - WOW - big Kudos to Kawai
- CN25. I was hoping, that it will get the Line IN and even the really small screen, like old Clavinovas, just showing the numbers, so we could see which sound was chosen and tempo of metronome
- I like the new desing, however the soulution take from CA95, with that strange speaker positions lower than the top of the piano... don't like to much, strange looking

Unfortunately, that means that the new CA1x (x7?) series, in case of current CA15, will still not have the line in. It is important point for many, and adding this and small screen, which will show only the numbers, could be great idea.
You can get my ideas about the future CA17 to the deciding people, James wink

I also want to tell, that if CA15 would have line in, it would be standing since few months in my flat. Unfortunately, I still don't know what to buy. Kawai made a perfect piano with it, but also destroyed with eliminating so basic thing, which could convince many people to buy it.


Edited by kapelli (09/15/14 06:39 AM)

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#2327942 - 09/16/14 02:44 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: LarryMan]
Dave King Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 18
Loc: California, USA
The Kawai CN25 has been announced for October 2014 availability in the European market. Below is a link to the CN25 page in English on the Kawai Europe web site. The “Documents” tab includes a link to the CN25 Owner’s Manual.

http://www.kawai.de/digitalpianos_en.htm

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#2328017 - 09/16/14 10:25 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
Chrisl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/14
Posts: 206
Loc: Chicago, IL
Real novice here, I really can't understand which Kawai dp's action is most similar to a grand piano? The VPC1 or these newer actions being discussed here. I'd just like to follow the conversations better wink

Chris
_________________________
Yamaha P105, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II Am Concert D, Sennheiser HD650.

New sound setup: Midi out to macbook, FW 800 to Metric Halo LIO 8 DAC to HD650's. Very Nice.

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#2328195 - 09/16/14 07:25 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Chrisl]
pwl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/13
Posts: 207
Loc: Bay Area CA
I think there's fairly broad agreement that the Grand Feel action of the MP11 (and a few other models) is the most realistic, followed by the RM3II Wooden Key action of the VPC1.

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#2328203 - 09/16/14 07:54 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Yes, pwl is correct.

In terms of realism, I would list Kawai's current generation keyboard actions in the following order:

1. Grand Feel (CA95/CA65, CS10/CS7, MP11)
2. RM3 Grand II (CA15, VPC1)
3. RHII (CN34/CN24, ES7, MP7)

The new RHIII action (utilised by the recently announced CN25) will occupy a position between RM3 Grand II and RHII.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2328210 - 09/16/14 08:08 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Kawai James]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3701
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Yes, pwl is correct.

In terms of realism, I would list Kawai's current generation keyboard actions in the following order:

1. Grand Feel (CA95/CA65, CS10/CS7, MP11)
2. RM3 Grand II (CA15, VPC1)
3. RHII (CN34/CN24, ES7, MP7)

The new RHIII action (utilised by the recently announced CN25) will occupy a position between RM3 Grand II and RHII.

Cheers,
James
x


Hi James, so going by that designation, the RHIII sounds like an evolution of the RHII action. Can you tell us what has been changed to create the RHIII? Longer keys, perhaps?

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#2328227 - 09/16/14 08:50 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: ando]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: ando
Hi James, so going by that designation, the RHIII sounds like an evolution of the RHII action. Can you tell us what has been changed to create the RHIII? Longer keys, perhaps?


ando, yes, you're correct. RHIII is an evolution of RHII (which was an evolution of RH). The action mechanism remains largely unchanged, and the keys/key pivot are the same length.

One of the main improvements with RHIII is the addition of counterweights embedded towards the front of each key, visible inside the transparent black and white keys in this photo:



As Dave King correctly noted earlier, these help to lighten the touch of the keyboard during pianissimo passages, but they also contribute to a feeling of greater 'substance' when playing with force. Kawai's wooden-key actions have long since featured counterweights towards the front of the keys, but this is the first time counterweights have been employed in a plastic key action.

One reason Kawai's wooden key actions feel so satisfying to play is because the key itself is solid, whereas plastic keys are hollow. We obviously can't produce solid plastic keys, however the added counterweights seem to improve that satisfying 'meatiness' of the action, to the point where it's approaching that of solid wooden keys.

Another improvement you may be able to see in the picture above is the presence of black 'shims' covering the lower guides at the front of the keys. These help to further minimise keyboard action noise and key stability. Generally speaking, the original RH action was already pretty quiet, and this aspect was improved with RHII, and now once again with RHIII.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x

_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2328252 - 09/16/14 10:40 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3701
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Thanks James, very interesting.

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#2328313 - 09/17/14 06:34 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 560
Loc: UK
Thank you James for your description and pictures.

One thing I took away from the VPC1 video on YouTube was that apparently the lower notes of that instrument have counterweights. Whereas the Grand Feel action does not. Is this because the shorter keys require it, or because the VPC1 came out later, and the engineers have only just developed this feature?

I am not really sure that counterweights are a good thing per se. In acoustic pianos they're there to counter the weight of the heavier hammers required for the bass strings. In digitals, you can choose whatever hammer weight you want, and this can be used to control the static weight. If you add to the hammer weight, and counter it with a counterweight, you can maintain the same static weight, but increase the dynamic weight (the "inertia"). A greater dynamic weight might feel more realistic, but basic physics dictates that this will increase the rebound time of the key, so making fast repetitions and trills more difficult. In short I think it could be another feature like the "let-off" that reduces playability in the name of realism.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2328337 - 09/17/14 09:13 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: lolatu]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: lolatu
One thing I took away from the VPC1 video on YouTube was that apparently the lower notes of that instrument have counterweights. Whereas the Grand Feel action does not.


I'm not sure which YouTube video you're referring to, however I can assure you that both the the 'RM3 Grand II' action in the VPC1 and 'Grand Feel' action in the MP11 utilise counterweights towards the front of the keys.

This feature is highlighted on both the KawaiVPC.com and KawaiMP.com websites:


http://www.kawaivpc.com/en/features/ [scroll down, then click the 'Feature Close-up' tab]


http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11/detail/touch/

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2328340 - 09/17/14 09:30 AM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Kawai James]
Chrisl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/14
Posts: 206
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Yes, pwl is correct.

In terms of realism, I would list Kawai's current generation keyboard actions in the following order:

1. Grand Feel (CA95/CA65, CS10/CS7, MP11)
2. RM3 Grand II (CA15, VPC1)
3. RHII (CN34/CN24, ES7, MP7)

The new RHIII action (utilised by the recently announced CN25) will occupy a position between RM3 Grand II and RHII.

Cheers,
James
x


Thank You pwl and James! Though I don't understand all the specifics, it's great to be able to follow the threads better wink Those last two pics really show the diff b/w RMIII and Grand Feel.

Again, appreciate it guys
Chris
_________________________
Yamaha P105, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II Am Concert D, Sennheiser HD650.

New sound setup: Midi out to macbook, FW 800 to Metric Halo LIO 8 DAC to HD650's. Very Nice.

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#2329960 - 09/22/14 01:32 PM Re: New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25) [Re: Northerner]
Luca33 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 5
CN25 and 35....very interesting.

According to you when Kawai will release new CA 6x/9x.

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12/20/14 06:18 AM
1 Hour 2-5-1 Jazz Workout Backing Track - Slow to Fast Swing
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12/20/14 05:36 AM
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