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The problem with the 280, in the this part of the world: it was forced onto the pianists long before it should have been (i.e., it wasn't ready yet). I have seen changes with the model, but it is difficult to recover from that initial experience. They are still learning. If they keep an open mind and listen to the performers and piano builders in the company, anything is possible. It must be a team effort in order to be successful. IMHO. I understand where you are coming from, A443. Thank you for adding this. Rich Galassini, thank you so much for your posts; it was good to read you. Unfortunately, I don't like to winter here in Wien (i.e., there is not enough sunlight and the people become very difficult to deal with)--I prefer to find myself in the Tokyo ramen shops during that time of the year. BTW, if you are looking for an outstanding place to eat while you are in Wien, I would highly recommend Mraz und Sohn--the 9-course with the wine pairing is absolutely outstanding. It is by far my favourite restaurant in the city. HINT: the best table is in the kitchen! My favorite thing about Vienna is that you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting world class art. Even the storm drains are beautiful to behold! Also, you cannot swing an Imperial without striking a world class musician who is about to perform. I love the food in Vienna and I will look for Mraz and Sohn. Danke dem A443! Rich I may be in Vienna next year myself! Question: Where do you get your dead cats?
Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
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Rich
I may be in Vienna next year myself!
Question: Where do you get your dead cats?
Oh that is the simple part. Just go to "Der Tote Katze Haus". They are so helpful there.
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Perhaps they have a section in the Funeral Directors Museum, for dead cats. It was closed when I was in Vienna last month. The dark side of Vienna haha...
The model 280 has been very popular amongst pianists outside of Vienna, and I know many that are used to Steinways and Yamahas for instance have welcomed the 280, when they didn't enjoy the other Boesendorfers so much.
The particular 280 I played on was in the Ehrbarsaal in the Prayner Konservatorium. Do you know that venue A443? Anyway that particular piano wasn't in optimal condition. There was an August Foerster next to it which was nicer to play but was way too bright.
I think the Viennese sound - from singers to pianists, string players, etc, is one of expressive restraint. Contained emotion if you like. The sound has to have colour and be broad, but not piercing. It's interesting that the old Viennese fortepianos had wooden panels placed above the strings to prevent the sound from being penetrative, and to blend the tone better. They didn't want, at that time anyway (early 1800s), to throw sound at people.
Also, the idea of tempo in Vienna has always been different from the rest - it's more of a beating heart than a speed.
A443, you can tell me if I'm on the right lines there or not.
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BTW in English English the expression is "room to swing a cat". It has nothing to do with an actual cat. It is room to swing a cat as in cat o' 9 tails.
Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
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Making it even darker.....
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"Dead cat bounce" is a term used in investing, denoting a slight jump in a stock's price after it has fallen quite a bit.
Semipro Tech
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Rich Galassini, and anyone else going to Vienna, please let me know if you need any food recommendations. I am a foodie, and have found many of the hidden gems around the city; Tokyo and Vienna are my to favourite food cities. If you know where to go, it can be mind blowing experience!
Things are not so advertised/commercial here, so you need to know ahead of time where to go. You will NOT simply stumble upon a place like Mraz and Sohn. This place is well worth every €. The food there is Austria edible art at its finest.
The people there are NOT pretentious, you may go in normal clothes, and executive chef cares about the food as much as I care about pianos (i.e., which is probably a bit on the insane side). I have some pictures somewhere of my last visit--maybe I should upload them.
Go promptly at 7 and be prepared to be there until midnight. There is only one seating an evening, so you will need reservations. The trick is to not eat all day and save room for the cheese&bread course near the end. <---this is very difficult to do, but it is by far the most amazing cheese/bread from around in the world. With all the "Grüßen aus der Küche" (aka amuse-vouches), it going to be c.12 platings--so you have to pace yourself!
Oh, BTW, they will start off with a water menu. Forget that, order: Leitungswasser (aka normal water from the tap). The water quality in Wien is among the best in the world! If you tell them that the Klavierbaukünstler sent you, you will be well cared for....I go there way too often!
Oh, don't forget: the croissant is a Viennese food, that was made popular in France, and then reimported with the refinements made abroad. There are a few places here that still produce mind-blowing examples of this marvellous breakfast food, but you have to get up early! Café Central is one place to get a great croissant, but go before 9:00am, or they will be too old, IMHO.
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One of my local piano shops (The Edinburgh Piano Company) actually has a Bosendorfer 275 Senator Grand, rebuilt mind you so it's probably abit older of an instrument, beautiful cabinet, looks stunning, was gonna look at if myself when I was there afew weeks ago, didn't get a chance to play it, I wish I had right enough, although £63,000 is abit ,ahem , out of my budget Haha.
http://www.edinburghpianocompany.co.uk/pianos/grand-pianos/bosendorfer-model-275-senator/
Enjoy.
Sam The Bam
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joe80, you are right on re:Viennese sound and tempo!!!
The Viennese piano sound is on the opposite end of the piano spectrum from Yamaha/Steinway. Using a lot of arm weight and banging doesn't work with this type of sound. The beauty of the Viennese sound is in the colour of the decay, not a piercing punch to the face (i.e., a sound that projects far into the hall). Again, Bösendorfer doesn't = Viennese, they are simply one of many hundreds of piano builders that have existed here. There was a time when there was over 400 registered in the city!
The Viennese tempo is a long discussion, albeit interesting, IMHO. The best way to understand it is in terms of the speed within the measure. An organ grinder (aka Werklmann) is the best way to envision what is going on. The circular wheel is not propelled consistently through the stroke by the hand--the automatic ones are, and they sound terrible (e.g., a midi file with no expression)! With a hand organ grinder, the hand introduces energy/speed into the system at different point within the stroke--to work with/against gravity producing small variance in the speed within the measure. This is what allows the Viennese downbeat to either be "lengthen" or "condensed," instead of being accented; accented pulses are done in the USA (e.g., STRONG - weak - weak, STRONG - weak - weak, STRONG - weak - weak). One typical Viennese example is: fast - me di um - ssss l o w, fast - me di um - ssss l o w, fast - me di um - ssss l o w--without any attack or weight emphasis, and the all the main-pulses/down-beats are within a consistent/stable tempo!!!
BTW, notice the connection to the Viennese piano sound?!? It is not about the attack, it is about the variance of colour and speed! The piano sound is a result of this tradition, and so too, is the expression thereof.
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[quote=A443]BTW, notice the connection to the Viennese piano sound?!? It is not about the attack, it is about the variance of colour and speed! The piano sound is a result of this tradition, and so too, is the expression thereof. [/quote]
That sounds a lot like playing an organ
Poetry is rhythm
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Actually, it's called rubato and phrasing. Nothing new here.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Minnesota Marty said: Actually, it's called rubato and phrasing. Nothing new here.
I don't think that's Rubato. Rubato I interpret to mean, slowing or speeding the tempo.
This is making a note shorter to accent it, bring it out.
(kind of reminds me of human languages: you can accent a word by making one syllable louder, or by raising the pitch of the word, or, as in Spanish, by making a syllable longer. Different ways to get the job done).
Last edited by phantomFive; 09/02/14 07:43 PM. Reason: fixing formatting
Poetry is rhythm
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Indeed, phantomFive, rubato is something totally different: rubato is not a constant--like the internal variation of a Viennese pulse--rubato is applied in specific situations, within the context of phrasing, often to contrast a melodic line against a steady accompaniment; romanticism applies it differently--in a schmaltzy kind of way. These are all different and distinct aspects of musical expression.
What I described is one of the most unique aspects of the "Viennese sound school" that people come here to study!!! Some, unfortunately, never learn how to internalise what is going on--just like some are not very good with the sound of a second language (i.e., they just do not hear the difference).
Your language analogy is spot-on; thanks for that! A familiar example might be Chinese: there are many english speakers that simply fail to hear any tonal difference in the vowels, especially within the context of the sentence's phrase structure.
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One thing that emerges when studying the Viennese classics of Mozart through Schubert, is that the romantic concept of the grand line from beginning to end of a movement is often taken out of context in our present time.
The line exists, but it exists because of the series of motives that build the phrases, and the phrases combine to make the line, so while each motive must not sound like an ending and thus chopping up the natural ebb and flow, each motive should have a certain clarity within itself that is lacking in many modern performances. Schnabel was probably the master of this kind of playing in the 20 th century. Today's pianists often compress the motives fir the sake if the line, tripping over beats and not making enough space.
The touch needed for most of the Viennese classics on modern instruments would be an awareness but not use of arm weight - with the exception of some later Beethoven. To me, it's all about having a 'quiet' arm - no tension but lots if support, and very clear fingerwork with fingers that play inside the keyboard rather than on the keyboard.
And very little pedal - almost dry but not quite.
This, to me, is a requirement of the repertoire - using romantic full on arm weight touch and pedal disrespects the structure of the music. Even Beethoven needs a certain amount of restraint, because although he was something of the enfant terrible, it was in the context if the highly refined classical - early romantic period. Perhaps he would like some of the more edgy modern performances of his music but he certainly wouldn't have known them in his time.
These aspects of playing the Viennese classics are, to me, as true if you play them on a Stein fortepiano or a Steinway grand. If you use modern - or even Chopin style arm weight on a Stein fortepiano you end up kind of blocking it.
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2010 Steinway B #586826
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As the euro drops in value this particular instrument becomes more attractive.
Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
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As the Euro drops in value I just get poorer.
Sauter Alpha 160, Yamaha N3 Avant Grand, Sauter Studio Upright (1974)
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I'm glad this thread came up again, it reminded me of A454.7's interesting technique suggestion.
Poetry is rhythm
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It also reminds me of Minnesota Marty's kindness. He is missed!
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Yes, he is missed.
Back to the subject of the 275, it's a shame Bösendorfer didn't keep the 275, and in a way I personally feel that there is even more of a case for Yamaha to bring back the 275. If you like, Yamaha themselves provide a 'standard' type of concert grand piano, a beautiful instrument that fits many different types of music and is revered and respected all over the world.
So, in my view, the firm doesn't need Bösendorfer to produce a standardised concert grand in the form of the 280. OK, I know, I know, the 280 is different to a CFX, and Bösendorfer in Europe anyway is almost treated as a separate concern to Yamaha (in some ways, not all), but I think there is a case for them to have kept on making, or re-introduce the 275 in place of the 280.
I don't think that will ever happen, of course, probably because of all the R and D that went in to the 280, and many people do like it. The only 280 I played wasn't well set up, strangely it was in the Ehrbar Saal in Vienna, but it was also incredibly humid so it's not fair of me to judge it. I have some friends who swear by the 280.
YAMAHA Artist
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
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