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#2324236 - 09/05/14 12:48 AM Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in
RealPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2336
Loc: NYC
From an organ prelude in G minor. Twelve bars.

[img:left]http://[/img]

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#2324237 - 09/05/14 12:55 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
phantomFive Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1435
Loc: California
That kind of thing can be powerful if you've properly prepared the audience for it emotionally up to that point
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2324242 - 09/05/14 01:22 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
Lingyis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 832
context aside that is pretty funny

wonder if mozart ever "phoned it in"

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#2324247 - 09/05/14 01:36 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2355
Loc: San Jose, CA
In the day a passage like that would have been pretty terrifying. They were not accustomed to that kind of tight chromatic movement.

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#2324295 - 09/05/14 07:09 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7863
And that's not the only time he phoned it in, either. It seems to me that once you get away from the most well-known and popular Bach harpsichord and keyboard works, and look at the miscellaneous pieces, you start running into some fairly long stretches of what sounds to me like fairly mindless note-spinning on endlessly repeated patterns. It's just not very interesting writing, IMO, and you'd never be able to predict his great music, if that was all that you knew.

I'm assuming that stuff is mostly from early in his compositional career, but am not sure. And some of it may be falsely attributed, too.

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#2324425 - 09/05/14 01:19 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: wr]
phantomFive Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1435
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: wr
And that's not the only time he phoned it in, either. It seems to me that once you get away from the most well-known and popular Bach harpsichord and keyboard works, and look at the miscellaneous pieces, you start running into some fairly long stretches of what sounds to me like fairly mindless note-spinning on endlessly repeated patterns. It's just not very interesting writing, IMO, and you'd never be able to predict his great music, if that was all that you knew.

I'm assuming that stuff is mostly from early in his compositional career, but am not sure. And some of it may be falsely attributed, too.

And some of it he might have expected you to add your own improvisations.

As a comparison, I have a copy of the score to Handel's Messiah, at times it's just a melody and a figured bass


Edited by phantomFive (09/05/14 01:24 PM)
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2324450 - 09/05/14 02:38 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
RealPlayer Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2336
Loc: NYC
I think it's OK if every piece you put out there is not a manifestation of pure genius. I can cut him some slack. Dude had to prepare the singers for this Sunday's cantata, write NEXT Sunday's cantata, work on other pieces in the hopper, and then there were all those children...
_________________________
Joe

www.josephkubera.com

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#2324478 - 09/05/14 04:04 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 376
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: RealPlayer
I think it's OK if every piece you put out there is not a manifestation of pure genius. I can cut him some slack. Dude had to prepare the singers for this Sunday's cantata, write NEXT Sunday's cantata, work on other pieces in the hopper, and then there were all those children...


I agree and I am not particularly a fan of Bach music but I am a fan of his massive ability. I think every person who is serious about becoming a good pianist, or perhaps even "just" a proficient one should spend some time studying Bach.
Maybe his works should even be included in the basics, thus : Scales, Arpeggios and Bach.
He can teach the fingers to walk. Truly a giant. And, not only those children, but that wig......

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#2324534 - 09/05/14 06:48 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: phantomFive]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7863
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: wr
And that's not the only time he phoned it in, either. It seems to me that once you get away from the most well-known and popular Bach harpsichord and keyboard works, and look at the miscellaneous pieces, you start running into some fairly long stretches of what sounds to me like fairly mindless note-spinning on endlessly repeated patterns. It's just not very interesting writing, IMO, and you'd never be able to predict his great music, if that was all that you knew.

I'm assuming that stuff is mostly from early in his compositional career, but am not sure. And some of it may be falsely attributed, too.

And some of it he might have expected you to add your own improvisations.

As a comparison, I have a copy of the score to Handel's Messiah, at times it's just a melody and a figured bass


The kind of fast repetitive pattern stuff I had mind isn't the kind of thing that was used as a basis for improvisation during the Baroque era. So, no, I don't think that was the expectation. It sounds a lot like a written-out improvisation already.

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#2324539 - 09/05/14 07:16 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3797
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I agree that the greats sometimes "phone it in"... I just don't think this is an example. I listened to it to get the full context (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMSAEQEKWJs), and that section is kind of unexpected and powerful in its length and arc of descent.

Youtube comments aren't always a source of illumination, but it's interesting that someone actually singled out that particular passage with the comment: "from minute 1:04 to 1:48 is one of the most heavenly experiences that I have had, simply music of another world...! Thank you, maestro Bach!"

-J
_________________________
Schubert: Bb Impromptu D.935/3

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#2324552 - 09/05/14 08:34 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1231
I can get from F# down to G with a lot less fuss.

12 bars?

Pfft.

Amateur.
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

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#2324556 - 09/05/14 09:03 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5158
"Too many notes!" - Emperor Joseph II to JSB wink .
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2324628 - 09/06/14 04:24 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: bennevis]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 376
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: bennevis
"Too many notes!" - Emperor Joseph II to JSB wink .



Not sure that was Bach, I always believed it was Mozart who wrote, "too many notes".

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=too+many+notes

Here is one of the examples.....
EMPEROR: Well, Herr Mozart! A good effort. Decidedly that. An excellent effort! You've shown us something quite new today.

[Mozart bows frantically: he is over-excited.]

MOZART: It is new, it is, isn't it, Sire?

EMPEROR: Yes, indeed.

MOZART: So then you like it? You really like it, Your Majesty?

EMPEROR: Of course I do. It's very good. Of course now and then - just now and then - it gets a touch elaborate.

MOZART: What do you mean, Sire?

EMPEROR: Well, I mean occasionally it seems to have, how shall one say? [he stops in difficulty; turning to Orsini-Rosenberg] How shall one say, Director?

ORSINI-ROSENBERG: Too many notes, Your Majesty?

EMPEROR: Exactly. Very well put. Too many notes.

MOZART: I don't understand. There are just as many notes, Majesty, as are required. Neither more nor less.

EMPEROR: My dear fellow, there are in fact only so many notes the ear can hear in the course of an evening. I think I'm right in saying that, aren't I, Court Composer?

SALIERI: Yes! yes! er, on the whole, yes, Majesty.

MOZART: But this is absurd!

EMPEROR: My dear, young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Cut a few and it will be perfect.

MOZART: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty?

EMPEROR: Well. There it is.

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#2324669 - 09/06/14 08:17 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: slipperykeys]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: bennevis
"Too many notes!" - Emperor Joseph II to JSB wink .



Not sure that was Bach, I always believed it was Mozart who wrote, "too many notes".


You're not seriously quoting a movie as historical evidence, are you?
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2324681 - 09/06/14 08:54 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: Damon]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1231
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: bennevis
"Too many notes!" - Emperor Joseph II to JSB wink .



Not sure that was Bach, I always believed it was Mozart who wrote, "too many notes".


You're not seriously quoting a movie as historical evidence, are you?


The man... The music... The madness... The murder... The motion picture...
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

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#2324705 - 09/06/14 11:03 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: Damon]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 376
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: bennevis
"Too many notes!" - Emperor Joseph II to JSB wink .



Not sure that was Bach, I always believed it was Mozart who wrote, "too many notes".


You're not seriously quoting a movie as historical evidence, are you?


I was seriously quoting Google, how did you miss that?

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#2324707 - 09/06/14 11:08 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5158
Originally Posted By: TwoSnowflakes
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: bennevis
"Too many notes!" - Emperor Joseph II to JSB wink .



Not sure that was Bach, I always believed it was Mozart who wrote, "too many notes".


You're not seriously quoting a movie as historical evidence, are you?


The man... The music... The madness... The murder... The motion picture...

How can we ever doubt the veracity of Hollywood (or is it Prague, where Amadeus was filmed)? If it's in the movie, it happened. Let there be no doubt whatsoever.

If Joseph II didn't say that, why did Wolfie reduce the number of his notes in subsequent operas? Die Zauberflöte is almost bereft of them...... wink

If only Joseph I (or 0) had said the same to JSB, the latter wouldn't have had to use his cell phone to compose.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2324735 - 09/06/14 12:16 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: slipperykeys]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: bennevis
"Too many notes!" - Emperor Joseph II to JSB wink .



Not sure that was Bach, I always believed it was Mozart who wrote, "too many notes".


You're not seriously quoting a movie as historical evidence, are you?


I was seriously quoting Google, how did you miss that?



I'm just quoting Piano World. How could you miss that?
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2324774 - 09/06/14 02:31 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: slipperykeys]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 376
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
"Too many notes!" - Emperor Joseph II to JSB wink .



Not sure that was Bach, I always believed it was Mozart who wrote, "too many notes".

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=too+many+notes

Here is a different example.

I have chosen this one to assuage the less well intellectually capable that may visit this web-site, of which I have recently discovered there is at least one...

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/28/arts/music-too-many-notes-and-too-few-ears.html




Edited by slipperykeys (09/06/14 02:34 PM)

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#2324780 - 09/06/14 03:06 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7606
Loc: New York City
The chromatic harmonies in the passage would have been extremely novel in Bach's time, and thus it isn't just filler, like it seems to be today.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2324793 - 09/06/14 04:31 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: Polyphonist]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5158
Yes, that passage somehow reminded me that good ol' JSB discovered minimalism long before Riley, Reich, Glass..... wink
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2324801 - 09/06/14 05:23 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: bennevis]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis

How can we ever doubt the veracity of Hollywood


So Chopin and Liszt shook hands while playing alternate hands of a Chopin piece. Glad to know that's true.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2324803 - 09/06/14 05:39 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: Damon]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5158
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

How can we ever doubt the veracity of Hollywood


So Chopin and Liszt shook hands while playing alternate hands of a Chopin piece. Glad to know that's true.

Of course.

They were such good buddies that Chopin wrote his Rondo in C for the two of them to play, he on his favorite Pleyel, Liszt on the Erard.

Until, of course, poor old Fryderyk coughed blood onto his keyboard (as A Song to Remember reminded us).........
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2324804 - 09/06/14 05:46 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: Polyphonist]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7863
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
The chromatic harmonies in the passage would have been extremely novel in Bach's time, and thus it isn't just filler, like it seems to be today.


If that chromaticism seemed novel in Bach's time, it was only because people had already forgotten the music of Lassus and Gesualdo, which could be very chromatic indeed. As has been said of Gesualdo's chromaticism, it was 400 years before anyone took chromatic writing any further.

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#2324805 - 09/06/14 05:46 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: bennevis]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

How can we ever doubt the veracity of Hollywood


So Chopin and Liszt shook hands while playing alternate hands of a Chopin piece. Glad to know that's true.

Of course.

They were such good buddies that Chopin wrote his Rondo in C for the two of them to play, he on his favorite Pleyel, Liszt on the Erard.

Until, of course, poor old Fryderyk coughed blood onto his keyboard (as A Song to Remember reminded us).........


_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2324828 - 09/06/14 07:05 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: bennevis]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Yes, that passage somehow reminded me that good ol' JSB discovered minimalism long before Riley, Reich, Glass..... wink

Surprised no one has brought up this similar passage from the cadenza of the 5th Brandenburg:
[img:center]http://[/img]
Couple other observations:

The OP quotes the BWV 535, which (though an early work), is considered by scholars to be authentic. It is actually rather fun to play, if far less musically demanding than the later monumental F&F in G minor BWV 542.

The 'too many notes' issue with Mozart is of course a reference to Entführung, but ask any soprano who has sung the centerpiece aria 'Marten aller Arten', and they might agree that there are a lot of notes! (Years ago I was rehearsal pianist for a production of the opera.)

But no, not too many notes, just Mozart at his most virtuosic, exceeding anything he wrote for the piano. eek
_________________________
Jason

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#2324829 - 09/06/14 07:07 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: Damon]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Damon


Damon, I don't think I could ever get through that film again. It was as putrid as 'Impromptu'. tiki
_________________________
Jason

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#2325005 - 09/07/14 11:07 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: bennevis]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 376
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: bennevis


How can we ever doubt the veracity of Hollywood


NYT not good enough then?

When you are in a hole stop digging.

You are the one who wrongly attributed the remark to Bach when it was to Mozart.

The "Emperor" was only 9 when Bach died? LOL. (I suppose you doubt the veracity of historical fact.......)



Edited by slipperykeys (09/07/14 11:17 AM)

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#2325010 - 09/07/14 11:25 AM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: slipperykeys]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5158
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: bennevis


How can we ever doubt the veracity of Hollywood


When you are in a hole stop digging.

As you are the one who wrongly attributed the remark to Bach when it was to Mozart (For example, the Emprorer was only 9 when Bach died!) I would think ANY historical reference may help.....

In case you didn't realise (- your post shows you definitely didn't), my earlier statement was meant to be a joke (hence, the wink ) - OK, it was a poor attempt at British humour, but I'd have thought that you'd have understood, living not too far from me.

I assumed that my following post about Joseph I (or 0) made that clear, but obviously not.......... shocked

BTW, just to be clear, all my other posts in this thread are in the same jocular vein. Including the one about minimalism. So, please, JSB, wherever you are, don't take offence...... grin
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2325109 - 09/07/14 05:51 PM Re: Some days even J.S. Bach phoned it in [Re: RealPlayer]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2643
Loc: Netherlands
Bach did it again in his organ-fugue in E-flat, BWV 532, also worthwhile in Busoni's pianoversion, this is perhaps the most silly fugue-subject of all times, but what he does with it, well, that's genius/God (as in SDG).
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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