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#2325507 - 09/08/14 08:07 PM V-Piano?
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Mostly, I just lurk since until just recently having retired, I did not have much time to devote to actually playing anyway.

So now I have a question to see what people here think of this...

I have a Yamaha Motif XS8 and really do enjoy it as a very interesting and deep workstation. I recently got the Karma software for it, running nicely on my Sony Vaio I7 Ultrabook.

However, I have the opportunity to purchase a Roland V-Piano because I have the cash and my wife seems to be in favor of my having it.

Unfortunately, we live in a condo where space is premium, so I really don't have room for both unless I get rid of stuff that I would prefer not to.

My primary reason for even considering the V-Piano is a possibly non-relevant concern that whatever pianistic skills I develop on my Motif XS8 may not translate to a "real" piano, while the V-Piano would be much more like a real piano in that regard.

Is this really a concern? I am not the least interested in playing classical piano, preferring cocktail style, new age, and those general musical areas.

So my question is not which keyboard is better, since both are probably among the best at what they are intended for, but instead whether I am not developing a proper sense of touch/technique for the styles of music I want to play by doing so on my Motif XS8 exclusively, which would warrant serious consideration for getting a V-Piano if I can swing the space.

Thanks,

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2325511 - 09/08/14 08:30 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Responding to my own thread (!?!?!) I see there is a thread on Pianoteq 5 here. Would that be an alternative - use Pianoteq 5 with my Motif XS8. Would that give me the responsiveness and touch closer to a "real" piano? It would certainly be less expensive than a V-Piano and space would not be an issue.

Thanks,

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2325515 - 09/08/14 08:45 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9135
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Tony, your XS8 is indeed a very powerful workstation, however the 'Balanced Hammer Effect Keyboard' action it utilises is intended for playing a wide range of instrument sounds, rather than offering a realistic simulation of an acoustic piano.

The V-Piano (slab type, not grand piano type) is of a similar vintage to your XS8, and offers a much better acoustic piano playing experience. Its sound is generated through mathematical modelling, rather than sampling, and therefore allows a very broad range of expression. However, it has to be said that not every appreciates the V-Piano's tonal character.

The 'PHAIII' keyboard action utilised by the V-Piano is also more piano-like than that of the XS8, although the same action can be found in less expensive models such as the FP-7F and RD-700NX. It's perhaps also worth noting that the latest Roland models feature the new 'PHAIV' action.

Originally Posted By: TonyB
So my question is...whether I am not developing a proper sense of touch/technique for the styles of music I want to play by doing so on my Motif XS8 exclusively, which would warrant serious consideration for getting a V-Piano if I can swing the space.


In my opinion, the XS8's 'Balanced Hammer Effect' action is not ideal for playing acoustic piano, whereas the 'PHAIII' action in the V-Piano and other Roland models is designed primarily for this purpose. That said, buying a V-Piano will not suddenly improve your playing ability or technique, and similarly there are no doubt some incredible musicians that can perform piano pieces beautifully on the XS8.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2325517 - 09/08/14 09:00 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9135
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: TonyB
I see there is a thread on Pianoteq 5 here. Would that be an alternative - use Pianoteq 5 with my Motif XS8. Would that give me the responsiveness and touch closer to a "real" piano? It would certainly be less expensive than a V-Piano and space would not be an issue.


Yes and no.

As with the V-Piano, Pianoteq 5 utilises mathematical modelling in order to generate its piano sounds, and therefore has a very expressive dynamic range. However, Pianoteq 5 arguably provides a more natural tone, and offers a large selection of piano (and non-piano) sounds and adjustable parameters.

Unfortunately, the keyboard action of your XS8 will still be lacking.

Honestly speaking, if you're interested in the responsive sound offered by Pianoteq, I would strongly consider partnering this with an inexpensive (but good quality) keyboard such as the Casio PX-150. This combination will offer a far more realistic acoustic piano playing experience than your XS8, for a good deal less than the price of a V-Piano.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2325522 - 09/08/14 09:09 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: Kawai James]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: TonyB
I see there is a thread on Pianoteq 5 here. Would that be an alternative - use Pianoteq 5 with my Motif XS8. Would that give me the responsiveness and touch closer to a "real" piano? It would certainly be less expensive than a V-Piano and space would not be an issue.


Yes and no.

As with the V-Piano, Pianoteq 5 utilises mathematical modelling in order to generate its piano sounds, and therefore has a very expressive dynamic range. However, Pianoteq 5 arguably provides a more natural tone, and offers a large selection of piano (and non-piano) sounds and adjustable parameters.

Unfortunately, the keyboard action of your XS8 will still be lacking.

Honestly speaking, if you're interested in the responsive sound offered by Pianoteq, I would strongly consider partnering this with an inexpensive (but good quality) keyboard such as the Casio PX-150. This combination will offer a far more realistic acoustic piano playing experience than your XS8, for a good deal less than the price of a V-Piano.

Kind regards,
James
x


James:

Thanks for both of your responses and the time I know it took to put them together. Though I don't claim to know much about digital piano technology, I do understand the limitations of the keyboard on my Motif XS8 (and why) and sampling vs modelling, so your responses make perfect sense to me.

Funny thing about your reference to the Casio - I recently purchased a Casio PX-5S to use as an inexpensive portable keyboard to use for playing out since it really sounds quite good and weighs only 24 lbs., and I got it at a very, very good price at the local Guitar Center with a rolling gig bag type case and double-braced stand. I could find room to set that up with my Ultrabook running Pianoteq. I am reasonably sure that this keyboard would fit your description of the PX-150. I had not thought of that. The whole setup would be very reasonably priced, since Pianoteq does not seem to be very expensive at all. Then, I can keep my Motif XS8 and have a decent piano experience with the Casio/Pianoteq.

Thanks,

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2325603 - 09/09/14 05:14 AM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
Kona_V-Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 281
Originally Posted By: TonyB
Mostly, I just lurk since until just recently having retired, I did not have much time to devote to actually playing anyway.

So now I have a question to see what people here think of this...

I have a Yamaha Motif XS8 and really do enjoy it as a very interesting and deep workstation. I recently got the Karma software for it, running nicely on my Sony Vaio I7 Ultrabook.

However, I have the opportunity to purchase a Roland V-Piano because I have the cash and my wife seems to be in favor of my having it.

Unfortunately, we live in a condo where space is premium, so I really don't have room for both unless I get rid of stuff that I would prefer not to.

My primary reason for even considering the V-Piano is a possibly non-relevant concern that whatever pianistic skills I develop on my Motif XS8 may not translate to a "real" piano, while the V-Piano would be much more like a real piano in that regard.

Is this really a concern? I am not the least interested in playing classical piano, preferring cocktail style, new age, and those general musical areas.

So my question is not which keyboard is better, since both are probably among the best at what they are intended for, but instead whether I am not developing a proper sense of touch/technique for the styles of music I want to play by doing so on my Motif XS8 exclusively, which would warrant serious consideration for getting a V-Piano if I can swing the space.

Thanks,

Tony



First check out this thread so you can read what some real owners of the V-Piano have done with the instrument over many years of playing in regards to user created custom piano voices.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2325606.html#Post2325606


If you can get a good price on the V-Piano I say go for it. You can hook up your motif via midi to the V-Piano and use its internal sounds as padding with the V's piano. You'll be able to utilize all 128 polyphony of the motif in combination with the V-Piano which doesn't utilize samples so you won't hear any abrupt note cutoffs. (hookup V-Piano midi out to the Motif and have the speakers hooked up to the motif and it allows you to play both at the same time if you want) Perfect for new age recordings.

As Kawai James pointed out, there is a newer hammer action on the newest Roland models however you can get more expression out of your playing with the V-Piano than any other DP that uses samples in my opinion. I would first go and try the V-Piano out for yourself and compare to all the other available DP's you can get your hands on and see/feel/hear for yourself. The thread created by "bennevis" which I posted above has some user created piano sounds that are unique and well worth trying out. You won't be dissapointed with the setup I describe above.

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#2325687 - 09/09/14 11:06 AM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1299
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: TonyB
. . .
Funny thing about your reference to the Casio - I recently purchased a Casio PX-5S to use as an inexpensive portable keyboard to use for playing out since it really sounds quite good and weighs only 24 lbs., and I got it at a very, very good price at the local Guitar Center with a rolling gig bag type case and double-braced stand. I could find room to set that up with my Ultrabook running Pianoteq. I am reasonably sure that this keyboard would fit your description of the PX-150. I had not thought of that. The whole setup would be very reasonably priced, since Pianoteq does not seem to be very expensive at all. Then, I can keep my Motif XS8 and have a decent piano experience with the Casio/Pianoteq.

Thanks,

Tony



Tony -- PMFJI --

You have a PX5S lying around? That makes life simple . . .

In your place, I'd try this:

Buy a copy of Pianoteq (or download the free trial version, which is complete but has some "broken" notes). I suggest trying both the "D" and the "Bluthner" sounds; tastes vary.

You can set it up, and drive it with either the XS8 or the PX5S. The free trial lets you fine-tune your computer setup, risk-free.

You'll either like it, or not.

The PX5S has the same keyboard action as the PX-x50. There's no point buying a second Casio keyboard. [The PX-150 is a fairly popular keyboard, among people active on the Pianoteq user forum.]

. Charles

PS -- I'm running a PX-350 into Pianoteq, and like it just fine.

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#2325717 - 09/09/14 01:12 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
funkycornwall Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Cornwall. UK
Sounds to me like you are all set with your Casio PX5S. Apart from Pianoteq you also have the option of the many recommended software sample-based pianos which you could operate via the Casio. Ivory II pianos and the Galaxy Vintage D are widely praised here. You could also simply use the piano sound from the Casio although software pianos will undoubtedly be far better. You need to make sure you buy a proper piano-style sustain pedal rather than the footswitch style pedal supplied with the Casio. I think the official Casio pianos style pedal is the SP20 but you can probably buy alternatives.

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#2325824 - 09/09/14 08:20 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9135
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Ah, funkycornwall makes a good point about the damper pedal. Does the PX-5S support half-pedalling?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2325860 - 09/09/14 10:58 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Wow, thanks for the kind responses!

The PX-5S does not support half-pedalling from what I understand. I did find a thread in these forums from some time ago in which Mike from Casio directly said that.

I am definitely tempted to get Pianoteq and try it as per recommendations from the kind folks in this thread. Version 5 seems to be alive and well.

As for trying a V-Piano, unfortunately there are none that I know of around the Twin Cities. I know that one of the Schmitt stores supposedly has a V-Piano Grand and if that is true, I could try it. However, that seems to me to really be a different instrument than the "slab" version even if the internals and keyboard are the same. I know the "Evolution" firmware upgrade is available for the V-Piano, but not the V-Piano Grand. Maybe those new models are already in the V-Piano Grand and so the upgrade is unnecessary?

From everything I have read, Kona_V-Piano's observations about the overall experience of playing the V-Piano being different from any other DP seems to be true. In my reading, people have said again and again that there are digital pianos and then there is the V-Piano. Even those who don't care for its sound seem to agree that there is a coherence between the keyboard and the sounds coming out that is much closer to the experience of playing an acoustic than what any other digital piano seems to provide.

In the end, I am really thinking that the advice to team up my PX-5S with Pianoteq might be a good way to go for me. If I do get my hands on a V-Piano someday, that experience could change my mind but I would rather get by for less if possible.

Thanks,

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2326952 - 09/12/14 10:37 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Thanks to the suggestions here, I downloaded the Pianoteq demo to determine that it works fine on my Ultrabook. I had to also download the free ASIO driver to get rid of the delay between keypress and hearing the appropriate note. Since it worked, I purchased the Pro version with the two acoustic pianos and selected the U4 upright as my bonus as per the sale until the 15th of this month. That should give me what I need. The connection to my Ultrabook is very easy - just a USB connection from the PX-5S to my Ultrabook and then a single cable with 1/8" stereo plugs on both ends to connect the line out on my Ultrabook to the 1/8" audio input on the PX-5S. It couldn't be more simple.

Thanks for the suggestions...

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2327165 - 09/13/14 02:18 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
ZeroZero Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 225
Loc: UK
Presently I play a Roland 700NX, which is a close clone of the ROlandV.
First up I would say that having had dozens of keyboards/digital pianos in my studio, this is the first one that feels real, when played. I have been playing it about five years now and I play it every day - it responds, it has dynamics and sensitivity.
I came from Nord Pianos, frankly, they now feel like toys in comparison action wise. This did not feel like this right away, my muscles on my fingers took a couple of months to acclimatize, then I begun to understand what a real piano should feel like. I simply cant get enough now. Simply put the action is superb.
I pump other things through it occasionally, and with a Hammond sound a waterfall keyboard is better, but as a piano the RD700NX stands up against my best VSTs. Yes they all have their character, but my goto is the Concert Piano on the RD700NX.

Its my sound, I never want to leave it.

Z

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#2327169 - 09/13/14 02:39 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
ZeroZero Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 225
Loc: UK
I have an earlier version of Pianoteq, I don't use it. If I want a VST I also have TruePiano, and find this better (30 day free trial). But I don't really use either, I go to the Roland 700NX it has more body and nuance. I find the Pianoteq lacking in partials - overall.

Just IMO

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#2327171 - 09/13/14 02:49 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: ZeroZero]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 580
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: ZeroZero
I have an earlier version of Pianoteq, I don't use it. If I want a VST I also have TruePiano, and find this better (30 day free trial). But I don't really use either, I go to the Roland 700NX it has more body and nuance. I find the Pianoteq lacking in partials - overall.

Just IMO


Let us know if you try the latest version of Pianoteq. There have been many changes in the past few months.

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#2327206 - 09/13/14 05:24 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: ZeroZero]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: ZeroZero
Presently I play a Roland 700NX, which is a close clone of the ROlandV.
First up I would say that having had dozens of keyboards/digital pianos in my studio, this is the first one that feels real, when played. I have been playing it about five years now and I play it every day - it responds, it has dynamics and sensitivity.
I came from Nord Pianos, frankly, they now feel like toys in comparison action wise. This did not feel like this right away, my muscles on my fingers took a couple of months to acclimatize, then I begun to understand what a real piano should feel like. I simply cant get enough now. Simply put the action is superb.
I pump other things through it occasionally, and with a Hammond sound a waterfall keyboard is better, but as a piano the RD700NX stands up against my best VSTs. Yes they all have their character, but my goto is the Concert Piano on the RD700NX.

Its my sound, I never want to leave it.

Z


I am glad you found your sound. My main instrument is guitar and I see similar in that world - everybody has to find what works for them, and it may not be the same as what works for another for a variety of reasons. But once you find what you need, you can focus on the music instead.

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2327208 - 09/13/14 05:35 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: ZeroZero]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: ZeroZero
I have an earlier version of Pianoteq, I don't use it. If I want a VST I also have TruePiano, and find this better (30 day free trial). But I don't really use either, I go to the Roland 700NX it has more body and nuance. I find the Pianoteq lacking in partials - overall.

Just IMO


I am sure there again many ways to approach the issue of choosing piano software. For what I was looking for, Pianoteq 5.01 seems to provide it.

This may open a can of worms, so I apologize in advance, but here goes...

My main instrument is acoustic guitar. I have a fine McPherson. It cost a lot (as much as a decent upright at something over $6,000), but was worth it. If piano were my main instrument, I wouldn't even consider trying to "fake it" with computers and technology - I would get the real thing (the piano equivalent of my McPherson) and be done with it. Since piano is not my main instrument, I can be more easily satisfied for a replacement for the real thing, and the path recommended to me that I chose to take does me just fine. Regardless of what we try as substitutes for the real thing, I suspect a trained piano player's hands and ears know what is real and what isn't. For me, a solid body electric just wouldn't cut it, but a finely crafted all solid wood acoustic does.

I do understand not being able to play a "real" piano under certain conditions (I live in a condo), so I am just giving my perspective from having been a working musician at various points in my life. I think the digital piano technology has come a long way and is doing fine. But when discussing which "fake" piano is better than another, I am thinking that if I was a real piano player with a lot of time and effort invested in my art and that was my thing, why would I not want the real thing instead? In that perspective, I don't think the differences between Pianoteq and TruePiano or some other equivalent product really matter despite their individual pros and cons. From the perspective of a guitar player who also happens to play some piano, either will do fine.

Tony



Edited by TonyB (09/13/14 05:36 PM)
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2327333 - Yesterday at 02:08 AM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
ZeroZero Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 225
Loc: UK
Tony, my main instrument is sax. I used a lot of different keyboards before, but only when I got a good one did my playing improve. Beginner or second instrument or whatever, a good instrument does matter. Even a beginner can feel this, its instinctive.

There is a ongoing debate about digital versus real, I wont get into that but I can observe that real painos can be very poor and out of tune.

"I don't think the differences between Pianoteq and TruePiano or some other equivalent product really matter despite their individual pros and cons"

With respect to you, I disagree.

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#2327341 - Yesterday at 03:11 AM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1299
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
You can carry your guitar around with you.

It's a lot harder to do that with your acoustic piano.

But it _is_ possible with a digital piano. You can perform on the instrument you _know_, not the one that happens to be in the bar (or the concert hall).

Quote:
. . . Regardless of what we try as substitutes for the real thing, I suspect a trained piano player's hands and ears know what is real and what isn't. For me, a solid body electric just wouldn't cut it, but a finely crafted all solid wood acoustic does.


A solid-body electric is a _different instrument_ !!! I can imagine a rock-n-roller saying:

. . . "For me, a hollow-body acoustic just doesn't cut it. I really need a solid-body electric guitar for what I do."

And he could be a really sophisticated guitarist, and be dead right.

But that's a side issue.

There are two different, but related _real_ issues here:

1. Is the DP a perfect substitute for an AP ?

2. Is the DP a good enough instrument to be played seriously, and have good music come out of it?

The answer to the first is "no", according to most people (and most people on the forum).

The answer to the second question varies, depending on the player and the DP. But there are a fair number of players who find a DP about which they say:

. . . "Yes -- I can work with this."

Given the current state of the art (and of our budgets), that is usually good enough.

. Charles

PS -- you might want to check some old posts by "bennevis", who uses a V-Piano. He deals with both questions.

PPS --

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#2327392 - Yesterday at 09:36 AM Re: V-Piano? [Re: ZeroZero]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Many people here seem to use and like Pianoteq. I am sure, as I said, that most of this type of product will be a good solution for one player or another. I already purchased Pianoteq as per the advice of some posters here whom I have read prior to this thread. I am satisfied with what I ended up with and do not wish to go through it all again.

It is good that you found what you needed and it works for you. In the end, I would hope that everybody does that, and that it does not need to be the same solution for everybody. If there really was only one solution, then all other companies making competing products would go out of business. However, most seem to be thriving, indicating to me that there is more than one solution here.

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2327393 - Yesterday at 09:43 AM Re: V-Piano? [Re: Charles Cohen]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
You can carry your guitar around with you.

It's a lot harder to do that with your acoustic piano.

But it _is_ possible with a digital piano. You can perform on the instrument you _know_, not the one that happens to be in the bar (or the concert hall).

Quote:
. . . Regardless of what we try as substitutes for the real thing, I suspect a trained piano player's hands and ears know what is real and what isn't. For me, a solid body electric just wouldn't cut it, but a finely crafted all solid wood acoustic does.


A solid-body electric is a _different instrument_ !!! I can imagine a rock-n-roller saying:

. . . "For me, a hollow-body acoustic just doesn't cut it. I really need a solid-body electric guitar for what I do."

And he could be a really sophisticated guitarist, and be dead right.

But that's a side issue.

There are two different, but related _real_ issues here:

1. Is the DP a perfect substitute for an AP ?

2. Is the DP a good enough instrument to be played seriously, and have good music come out of it?

The answer to the first is "no", according to most people (and most people on the forum).

The answer to the second question varies, depending on the player and the DP. But there are a fair number of players who find a DP about which they say:

. . . "Yes -- I can work with this."

Given the current state of the art (and of our budgets), that is usually good enough.

. Charles

PS -- you might want to check some old posts by "bennevis", who uses a V-Piano. He deals with both questions.

PPS --


We can go on and on about this forever. I was simply trying to make the point that all of these products whose purpose is to try to simulate a "real" piano are still just that - simulations. As such, some people will prefer one simulation, while others will prefer another.

Yes, a rock player will prefer a solid body guitar. I identified myself as an acoustic player and made my point from that perspective.

Since my last post on the subject had been to thank those who had advised me and to come back with closure saying that I acted on their advice and appreciated their time, I felt that further discussion on what maybe I should have done did not make much sense. I do stand by my statement (at least for myself) that if I were primarily a piano player, had spent the time and effort over years developing that art/craft, I would have a "real" piano and would treat a digital as an adjunct to it for all the reasons that people cite in support of digital pianos. Others can disagree with that since we are in the realm of personal taste and my own views for myself still hold. Personal taste is just that - not fact to be proved or disproved, agreed with or disagreed with.

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2327412 - Yesterday at 10:43 AM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
petes1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: TonyB
We can go on and on about this forever.


And that's one of the beauties of sites like this one!

Quote:
...I was simply trying to make the point that all of these products whose purpose is to try to simulate a "real" piano are still just that - simulations. As such, some people will prefer one simulation, while others will prefer another.


Of course, as with any tool, folks will have their favorites.

Quote:
...I do stand by my statement (at least for myself) that if I were primarily a piano player, had spent the time and effort over years developing that art/craft, I would have a "real" piano and would treat a digital as an adjunct to it for all the reasons that people cite in support of digital pianos.


In an ideal world, no one could disagree, and in fact, best would be to have several instruments available for practice and performance, including a well made and cared for grand piano, but of course we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!).

The other factor of course is that there are some things that a DP can do that an acoustic never will, including producing non-AP sounds and digital signal processing. I would venture to say that a DP is "the real thing", but of a different nature, similar to your acoustic guitars vs solid body electrics vs hollow body electrics vs...

Quote:
Others can disagree with that since we are in the realm of personal taste and my own views for myself still hold. Personal taste is just that - not fact to be proved or disproved, agreed with or disagreed with.


... personal tastes and again both constraints and uses. All life is but a series of compromises, and we all will need to try to make the best with what we have.

Yeah, I'm pretty much stating much of what has already been stated in this thread, but like most, I love to hear my own voice or see my own words, and am thankful for this forum and the kind folks that run it and support it that allow all of us to be able to express our opinions.

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#2327477 - Yesterday at 04:09 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: petes1]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3571
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: petes1
we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!).


Spouses, eh? Exactly how many do you have? Too many would indeed be limiting...

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#2327494 - Yesterday at 05:41 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: ando]
petes1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: petes1
we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!).


Spouses, eh? Exactly how many do you have? Too many would indeed be limiting...


LOL

This reminds me of a joke:

Some define polygamy as having one wife too many, and many define marriage in much the same way!

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#2327498 - Yesterday at 06:04 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: petes1]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: petes1
Originally Posted By: TonyB
We can go on and on about this forever.


And that's one of the beauties of sites like this one!

Quote:
...I was simply trying to make the point that all of these products whose purpose is to try to simulate a "real" piano are still just that - simulations. As such, some people will prefer one simulation, while others will prefer another.


Of course, as with any tool, folks will have their favorites.

Quote:
...I do stand by my statement (at least for myself) that if I were primarily a piano player, had spent the time and effort over years developing that art/craft, I would have a "real" piano and would treat a digital as an adjunct to it for all the reasons that people cite in support of digital pianos.


In an ideal world, no one could disagree, and in fact, best would be to have several instruments available for practice and performance, including a well made and cared for grand piano, but of course we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!).

The other factor of course is that there are some things that a DP can do that an acoustic never will, including producing non-AP sounds and digital signal processing. I would venture to say that a DP is "the real thing", but of a different nature, similar to your acoustic guitars vs solid body electrics vs hollow body electrics vs...

Quote:
Others can disagree with that since we are in the realm of personal taste and my own views for myself still hold. Personal taste is just that - not fact to be proved or disproved, agreed with or disagreed with.


... personal tastes and again both constraints and uses. All life is but a series of compromises, and we all will need to try to make the best with what we have.

Yeah, I'm pretty much stating much of what has already been stated in this thread, but like most, I love to hear my own voice or see my own words, and am thankful for this forum and the kind folks that run it and support it that allow all of us to be able to express our opinions.


Petes1 - I agree with you on all points. To me, context is everything, rather than there being one universal truth about a given product, belief, etc. After reading in these forums about Pianoteq, I came away with a clear sense that many people like the product, and many people don't.

I had a chance to play a "real" acoustic upright today and came away from that experience knowing that Pianoteq with my Casio PX-5S is not a "real" piano, but for my purposes is close enough that practicing with it will make the transition to an acoustic less painful than it otherwise might be just using my Casio PX-5S or my Yamaha Motif XS8. So, whether there are better products available that recreate a "real" piano is not a concern for me. I feel that I made a good and valid choice for my use, while somebody else might make a completely different choice and be just as "correct" for his or her circumstances.

A digital piano can take all manner of technological liberties and, in the process, become its own instrument. My Motif XS8 is a good example of that. I should clarify - the Motif XS8 is a workstation, but the point Pete made about DPs still holds with this technology too. It is a tool for composing, performing, and just fiddling about that does what it does very well. Though it can make sounds that are similar enough to their acoustic counterparts for most people to recognize them as they would a recording of such sounds, the Motif does not try to be those instruments beyond making similar sounds.

Much of what I read about digital pianos seems to center around how well they approximate a "real" piano. Because of that complete emphasis on that, I chose my comments within that context. Your points about digital pianos I can also fully agree with, but outside the context of looking exclusively at a particular DP's ability to try to be an acoustic.

In the acoustic guitar forums, there are frequently discussions that seem to go on forever with all manner of people postulating on some particular aspect of how a guitar is built and its affect on the overall sound. Right now, it is about whether a bolt on or a dovetail neck makes for a better sounding instrument. There are all manner of opinions fervently being spouted, but on occasion a real builder will comment, invariably saying that there is no conclusive evidence either way. I read a bit of these threads and quickly realize I would rather spend my time playing and letting the luthiers worry about this stuff.

With the digital piano, I asked for opinions, was pointed in a direction, and acted on that advice. I am satisfied with what I ended up with and seriously don't care beyond that about whether I should have gotten a Roland stage piano or True Piano, or whatever.

There are people who really do care about that stuff and that is fine. Some of these people really did help me in this thread. But after having bought the recommended products, there is really little more to say about it in this particular thread. I am sure there are (or will be) many more threads that will deal with the minutiae concerning the different computer-based piano reproduction products that people can expound in to their heart's content.

I think part of my lack of interest beyond making the needed purchase is that I just retired from over 20 years as a software engineer and am really no longer interested in all the innards of how this stuff works. I do understand how digital pianos work, the concepts of modelling (I had all that math in college too), etc. Also, I have been involved with midi in various ways since its inception in the 80s, writing midi software, using midi gear, etc. I am no stranger to this technology, but do admit to not knowing the current state of these products on the market, which is why I posted. Just in case I get the hankering to dig around in it, I did purchase the Pro version of Pianoteq, so I can play around with all manner of parameters - or just leave it as is. With the Pro version, the choice is mine.

Tony



Edited by TonyB (Yesterday at 06:05 PM)
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2327523 - Yesterday at 07:07 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1299
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Quote:
. . . I had a chance to play a "real" acoustic upright today and came away from that experience knowing that Pianoteq with my Casio PX-5S is not a "real" piano, but for my purposes is close enough that practicing with it will make the transition to an acoustic less painful than it otherwise might be just using my Casio PX-5S or my Yamaha Motif XS8. . . .


I usually aim for improvement, not perfection.<g>

I'm glad you liked Pianoteq.

. Charles

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#2327532 - Yesterday at 07:27 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: TonyB]
wildpig Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/06/14
Posts: 13
I tried pianoteq and have to say I am hooked on it. I have now turned off the volume on my casio px120.
_________________________
Current work in progress: Canon in D (John Galloway ver)
where: slightly past half way. cant quite do LH at 16th notes frown.
Piece done: Minuet G major (w/o trills.. will have to work on that)

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#2327576 - Yesterday at 11:06 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: wildpig]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: wildpig
I tried pianoteq and have to say I am hooked on it. I have now turned off the volume on my casio px120.


On my PX-5S, there is a midi sub-menu in which I can (among other things) turn off local mode. Local mode is when what you play on the keys is played using local sounds with local mode on, and when local mode is off, what you play on the keys is only transmitted through the keyboard's midi out. That is what I use when using Pianoteq. I don't have to do anything with the local volume for that.

You might want to check to see if your keyboard does that. It has been common practice in keyboards for a very long time, so I suspect most have this feature.

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2327577 - Yesterday at 11:07 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: Charles Cohen]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
Quote:
. . . I had a chance to play a "real" acoustic upright today and came away from that experience knowing that Pianoteq with my Casio PX-5S is not a "real" piano, but for my purposes is close enough that practicing with it will make the transition to an acoustic less painful than it otherwise might be just using my Casio PX-5S or my Yamaha Motif XS8. . . .


I usually aim for improvement, not perfection.<g>

I'm glad you liked Pianoteq.

. Charles


Thanks Charles. I agree.

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2327578 - Yesterday at 11:08 PM Re: V-Piano? [Re: ando]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: petes1
we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!).


Spouses, eh? Exactly how many do you have? Too many would indeed be limiting...


I mentioned to my wife that the Nord Stage 2 HA88 was on sale at Guitar Center this weekend. She simply said that if I wanted it, go get it. I didn't because I really don't have the room, but I have never had trouble with my wife on these sorts of things.

Tony
_________________________
my blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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