Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Replacing an orig Steinway action with carbon-fibre?

Hi Bill,

Was typing when you posted....am leaning towards the WNG parts. Actually, it was my suggestion to Randy to look at the possibility of using the WNG parts. He has already contacted them, and they do have the parts to configure for this Steinway. Will prob also use their back-action kit a well.

As you know, this piano will be getting a huge amount of play, so the WNG parts will prob last a lot longer.

Not always to the betterment of the piano or the customer, I am afraid.

It can most likely go either way. I am not a rebuilder but I have had to replace action parts on a few Steinways anyway and the Steinway parts were the only ones I could use. They were all previously Teflon parts, so that worked out fine. The geometry of the new parts was better and I could deal with the voicing.

Grandpianoman's case is far different.

Can't really ask that question, because the wooden shanks are all different...

There is that....

The italics above are mine….
All piano actions have some amount of compliance—that is, the motion of the hammers does not exactly follow the motion of the keys. Parts bend, felt and leather compress, etc. There is always a time delay between the start of the key’s motion and the resultant movement of the hammers. Energy is initially stored in the key/action mechanism and is subsequently released to accelerate the hammer. This is action compliance.

Action saturation is reached at the point at which the key is fully bottomed against the front rail punchings before the hammer starts to move. At, and beyond, that point pianist has lost control over what next happens to the hammers. Beyond the point of action saturation no matter how much harder the pianist strikes the keys there will be no additional hammer acceleration—their velocity (and the piano’s acoustical power) will remain relatively constant.

In most piano—especially longer ones—the keys are the biggest contributors to action compliance with the knuckle and shank combination coming in a distant second.

Action compliance will be highest in bass—typically the hammers are heavier and there will be more bending (energy storage) in the key and action components—and it will gradually decrease through to the treble. In general it is best to make this transition as smooth and as consistent as possible. Since the biggest culprit is the key it would make sense to keep the keys as straight as possible. Since the second main source of bending is the hammershank assembly it would seem to make sense to make these as consistent as possible.

ddf

The only two differences I notice as a pianist on the actions I rebuild with the W,N&G shank/flange compared to ones with wood shanks is: it is much more even and controllable when playing softly, and repeated single notes sound much more similar with one another.

Based on WNG marketing blurb, they aim for the properties of the ideal wood shank. This blurb shows such shank has relatively little flexibility. Unfortunately, the blurb I found is not quantitative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRvtUGDHJ8

Jim, first I was talking of playing pianos fitted with some kind of action that differ from traditional wooden one.

Second, where did you get I have no experience on those actions? A colleague just fitted one and I could see the Job going on. Limited experience indeed but we are neighbors.

Voicing was not a breeze.

And you never sort them, as this is useless is not it?

My problem with this way of drawing conclusions on either very limited 1st hand, and in this case, very limited 2nd hand experience, is that the choices that define a pianos tonal success are interdependent. The choices must be matched to the materials used...that includes hammer choice/density, leverage, soundboard health, bridge and termination conditions, etc, etc.

If one uses a new technology like this, expecting it to cure ills, ills that would also bedevil traditional materials, one will be disappointed. Poor terminations, inappropriate treble strike points, dead boards in the killer octaves will remain poor terminations, inappropriate treble strike points and dead boards at the killer octave.

(oops...not done yet sorry about that "submit")

Those of us who are using this technology successfully are applauding it for giving us features that, in wood and wool have been knee-capping us for years. Inconsistency of wooden shank beam strength and ridiculous inconsistency of shank center friction being huge traditional issues for fine tone regulation.

If there are minor tonal down sides, and I say if, my take is, that the up sides are so huge that real or imagined possible minor down sides(compromise being the basic raw material of piano life)are so overshadowed by obvious advantages that its worth the trade.

My rather brusk paragraph, which I apologize for in its bruskness,but not in its content, is the continual tendency of piano technicians, all of us to some degree, having by definition a fair amount of personal OCD, to obsess about the small things, and completely miss the big picture.

Are the CF parts perfect...no...do they present a significant improvement on some of the most frustrating aspects of wooden parts...in my opinion, way yes.

Jim Ialeggio

With new action parts, its in sheer number of processes which are tantamount to completely re-manufacturing brand new $1500 sets of parts that I as a fine rebuilder, looking to create really fine instruments, as well as put food on my family's table, chafe at.

Sorting wood hammers, makes sense. I do it to sort for friction, as the most stable center, in my view is the center which has not been re-pinned/reamed. I have not sorted for beam strength, but am starting to now, seeing the difference the CF consistency makes. Add to this, currently, I'm not only repinning Tokiwa rep levers, but rebushing the damn things, because the cloth is so soft or so little of it, an increase in 4 pin sizes would be required to move the friction from 1g to 4g...and I prefer a bit more than 4g.

There is a fair amount of frustration with the manufactures of all parts here. So rework of brand new parts, which is currently required big time for top level work, leads one to really question whether the nature of the traditional materials is hammstringing fine piano work or not. From this perspective WNG efforts are to be applauded, in terms of consistency, consistnecy, consistency,and stability, stability, stability.

My last set of WNG shanks was dead nuts consistent across the set at 3-4g. The shank stiffness is consistent by definition.

Isaac, re the sorting of shanks stiffness, do you have a protocol which does not involve reworking over and over again to achieve the sort, preferably before they are installed for traveling the first time.

Jim Ialeggio

And, there is the other thing. The action on the concert stage that begins to freeze, intermittently, at the jacks. It is one thing to have to go through a new set of parts before using them, which certainly adds to the cost inre time invested. It is a whole 'nuther thing to have to take an action apart and go through it, plus the added risk to reputation that a sticking note in the middle of "Bolero" can offer.

The cloth bushings will NEVER be or remain as consistent as the WNG parts, and as far as sorting shanks by tone, I submit that that will need to be done at every extreme of humidity that the shanks will encounter, because the tone will change with the humidity, and not all of the shanks will change the same way. Tapping might help in the gross grouping of shanks, but it will not leave a constant 88 anything, for long.

My last sets of WNG have had the pinning dead on, though there seems to be an increase in the number of rep levers that need to be centered on the jack, and I have noticed in one set used in a heavy practice room situation that I am having some pins walk out the sides of the flanges. It may be a problem to put an indent in the middle of the pins, being that they are steel, but I think even a .009" deep kerf cut across the middle would be sufficient to keep them from moving side to side without creating problems while inserting them through the bushings.

I am done with wooden parts, myself.
Regards,

Ed,

How are you centering WNG jacks?

JI

I have a small heat gun, it has a smaller nozzle, about 1/8". I can train that at the thinnest part of the rep lever, proximal to the pin. I do this with the support in a vise. As I heat it, I force the rep lever sideways in the direction I want it to go far enough so that it touches the jack. It isn't really much force required. With about four passes of the heat gun, slowly, about 1 inch away, I can feel the material relax under my touch. At this moment, I take off the heat and hold the part for about 4 seconds and let go. It will usually go back to almost perfect, which is where I want to see them while they are till warm. There is a small amount of spring that resolves over the following few minutes, and if I was really on target, they find their center.

It isn't as important to be centered on this material as there is for wooden parts, though i do it for the sake of craftsmanship. With wood, and the inevitable movement that has to be accounted for, starting in the middle is the only $ensible thing to do for a regulator that wants to avoid callbacks. The need for such averaging the margin of error is less with more stable material.

It is sometimes the case that the jack isn't in line with the support and rep lever. I will then heat the support between the jack and the capstan, hold a twist, and see what that does. The majority of misalignment seems to be from the rep lever not being square to the support and jack.
Regards,

Very interesting remarks. I have often seen when just happening in for some reason in the shop of one of my colleagues who is a fine rebuilder, the process of repinning nearly every part of what are supposedly the highest quality wooden parts on the market. That does not make sense to me and it is one reason why I choose not to be in that end of the business.

The alternative, as mentioned earlier is so called, "genuine" parts, simply screwed on the rails and hammers not even striking many of the strings they are supposed to, "fat" hammers, screwed on right out of the box and presented under the label of the famous company name without any of the work that factory technicians might actually do on one of the new pianos.

The performing artists repeatedly ask why there is "no tone" in the treble and high treble. Since it had been a venue I had served for nearly 30 years, I said that I would not tune that piano again this last Summer performance season unless I had at least two full days with it in the Spring. The call never came and neither did a request for me to tune it until the last performance. I was told that a person I knew to be quite competent had worked on it for several days.

When I opened the piano, it smelled strangely "new" until I realized that what I was smelling was lacquer. That "factory" smell. It was indeed much improved and I said so.

So yes, BDB, you can put on current production parts on a $&$ piano that is over 100 years old. You can run the screw through the hole and tighten it up and you can claim that only genuine parts from the factory were used and you would not be misrepresenting anything at all.

All, I can understand why you use those parts, and believe me I respect the idea and all the thinking behind them and now using them.
They may be perfect for the situations you have, with no classical pianist, and pianists used to sounds more in the "ring my bell" debt.

My feedback here is limited but I understand what Mary wrote.
Having infinite power loose interest if modulation is lowered.

Beside, a French piano maker was so happy with his zero friction shanks, to discover soon that they create much noise and need to be changed or at last repin.
I also understand you support US made products, it is all at your honor.

Best regards

Jim, my colleague was trained at the M&H factory for the WNG parts installation.
Job on a relatively recent Bluethner in good shape and rebuild because old Flemming action 1980 something)

Well, the ease of regulation is noticeable, out of the hammer flanges that turn when tightened , I am just giving general impression. Eveness of impact tone is good but something miss a little like the difference between multiply soundboard and wood. Coloration is always the same. That said thos einstruments have a pelicular tone tending to be "straightened" yet originally (lot of constrain on the wire)

About shanks I dont get you. WHy do you want to repin new parts, it is generally totally unnecessary, unless they wooble or have too little friction.
ALso I explained in detail more than once that reaming indeed was bad and unncecessary. I can send you the detailed Renner procedure for pinning if of some interest (I have send you yet a lot of technical "translated" information seem to me)

I also gave the shanks sorting by tone process and why it was done that way , higher toning progreesive for high treble then the stiffer (high tone) ones for the basses, then the last for mediums.

Once assembled, testing by tone and lowering the too high ones by scraping the underside and a little the bottom angles with a scraper (also used to listen to the assembly tone)

Makes immeiately a more even tone , probably due to more even attack noise, it is heard in treble well, and perceived for other sections too.

in factories I hae seen the workers also bending the shanks while testing by tone. One need to have sorte a lot of shanks to be able to do so, I suppose.

On a good set there is may be one or 2 objectionnable shanks wood defect, sound "empty or as "broken" a little)
But on lesser quality shanks I think too much could be thrown out to be reasoneable.

The tone of the shanks alone can go to 3-4 large categories, or by tone you have up to a m3 interval, sorting precisely the top octave an avoiding hops or jumps for the rest.

Stiffness simply expressed by the resonant tone of the shank

Testing centers of course is very important.
I take in account current hygrometric conditions,for 1-2 grams eventually, knowing cenyters will ease by themselves when played if on the strong side.

Adjusting is simply done with moistening mixtures. I know how to do so with Renner parts, not much on Tokiwa or Yamaha parts.

The wood and the wool bushing differs so the reaction to alcohol differs too.

In case of change NO REAMING , only burnishing and alcohol water which are largely enough to go up to 2 sizes up on Renner parts , an leave the cloth in good condition.

Respect of insertion/extraction direction also matters.

As attentive to details as you are those shoul be of some interest to you.

ALl the best

PS the Renner centers procedure is not translated (yet), but I have no much interest to translate things I know as no thank you or interesting commenst came from sending technical informations from the German "classical" readings.

Regards