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We can go on and on about this forever. And that's one of the beauties of sites like this one! ...I was simply trying to make the point that all of these products whose purpose is to try to simulate a "real" piano are still just that - simulations. As such, some people will prefer one simulation, while others will prefer another. Of course, as with any tool, folks will have their favorites. ...I do stand by my statement (at least for myself) that if I were primarily a piano player, had spent the time and effort over years developing that art/craft, I would have a "real" piano and would treat a digital as an adjunct to it for all the reasons that people cite in support of digital pianos. In an ideal world, no one could disagree, and in fact, best would be to have several instruments available for practice and performance, including a well made and cared for grand piano, but of course we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!). The other factor of course is that there are some things that a DP can do that an acoustic never will, including producing non-AP sounds and digital signal processing. I would venture to say that a DP is "the real thing", but of a different nature, similar to your acoustic guitars vs solid body electrics vs hollow body electrics vs... Others can disagree with that since we are in the realm of personal taste and my own views for myself still hold. Personal taste is just that - not fact to be proved or disproved, agreed with or disagreed with. ... personal tastes and again both constraints and uses. All life is but a series of compromises, and we all will need to try to make the best with what we have. Yeah, I'm pretty much stating much of what has already been stated in this thread, but like most, I love to hear my own voice or see my own words, and am thankful for this forum and the kind folks that run it and support it that allow all of us to be able to express our opinions.
Keys: Yamaha GC2, Casio Privia PX-5s, Roland RD800, Alesis VI61, Yamaha YC61, Pianoteq 7.0, Native Instruments, Gig Performer My motto: Play and Let Play!
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we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!). Spouses, eh? Exactly how many do you have? Too many would indeed be limiting...
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we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!). Spouses, eh? Exactly how many do you have? Too many would indeed be limiting... LOL This reminds me of a joke: Some define polygamy as having one wife too many, and many define marriage in much the same way!
Keys: Yamaha GC2, Casio Privia PX-5s, Roland RD800, Alesis VI61, Yamaha YC61, Pianoteq 7.0, Native Instruments, Gig Performer My motto: Play and Let Play!
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We can go on and on about this forever. And that's one of the beauties of sites like this one! ...I was simply trying to make the point that all of these products whose purpose is to try to simulate a "real" piano are still just that - simulations. As such, some people will prefer one simulation, while others will prefer another. Of course, as with any tool, folks will have their favorites. ...I do stand by my statement (at least for myself) that if I were primarily a piano player, had spent the time and effort over years developing that art/craft, I would have a "real" piano and would treat a digital as an adjunct to it for all the reasons that people cite in support of digital pianos. In an ideal world, no one could disagree, and in fact, best would be to have several instruments available for practice and performance, including a well made and cared for grand piano, but of course we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!). The other factor of course is that there are some things that a DP can do that an acoustic never will, including producing non-AP sounds and digital signal processing. I would venture to say that a DP is "the real thing", but of a different nature, similar to your acoustic guitars vs solid body electrics vs hollow body electrics vs... Others can disagree with that since we are in the realm of personal taste and my own views for myself still hold. Personal taste is just that - not fact to be proved or disproved, agreed with or disagreed with. ... personal tastes and again both constraints and uses. All life is but a series of compromises, and we all will need to try to make the best with what we have. Yeah, I'm pretty much stating much of what has already been stated in this thread, but like most, I love to hear my own voice or see my own words, and am thankful for this forum and the kind folks that run it and support it that allow all of us to be able to express our opinions. Petes1 - I agree with you on all points. To me, context is everything, rather than there being one universal truth about a given product, belief, etc. After reading in these forums about Pianoteq, I came away with a clear sense that many people like the product, and many people don't. I had a chance to play a "real" acoustic upright today and came away from that experience knowing that Pianoteq with my Casio PX-5S is not a "real" piano, but for my purposes is close enough that practicing with it will make the transition to an acoustic less painful than it otherwise might be just using my Casio PX-5S or my Yamaha Motif XS8. So, whether there are better products available that recreate a "real" piano is not a concern for me. I feel that I made a good and valid choice for my use, while somebody else might make a completely different choice and be just as "correct" for his or her circumstances. A digital piano can take all manner of technological liberties and, in the process, become its own instrument. My Motif XS8 is a good example of that. I should clarify - the Motif XS8 is a workstation, but the point Pete made about DPs still holds with this technology too. It is a tool for composing, performing, and just fiddling about that does what it does very well. Though it can make sounds that are similar enough to their acoustic counterparts for most people to recognize them as they would a recording of such sounds, the Motif does not try to be those instruments beyond making similar sounds. Much of what I read about digital pianos seems to center around how well they approximate a "real" piano. Because of that complete emphasis on that, I chose my comments within that context. Your points about digital pianos I can also fully agree with, but outside the context of looking exclusively at a particular DP's ability to try to be an acoustic. In the acoustic guitar forums, there are frequently discussions that seem to go on forever with all manner of people postulating on some particular aspect of how a guitar is built and its affect on the overall sound. Right now, it is about whether a bolt on or a dovetail neck makes for a better sounding instrument. There are all manner of opinions fervently being spouted, but on occasion a real builder will comment, invariably saying that there is no conclusive evidence either way. I read a bit of these threads and quickly realize I would rather spend my time playing and letting the luthiers worry about this stuff. With the digital piano, I asked for opinions, was pointed in a direction, and acted on that advice. I am satisfied with what I ended up with and seriously don't care beyond that about whether I should have gotten a Roland stage piano or True Piano, or whatever. There are people who really do care about that stuff and that is fine. Some of these people really did help me in this thread. But after having bought the recommended products, there is really little more to say about it in this particular thread. I am sure there are (or will be) many more threads that will deal with the minutiae concerning the different computer-based piano reproduction products that people can expound in to their heart's content. I think part of my lack of interest beyond making the needed purchase is that I just retired from over 20 years as a software engineer and am really no longer interested in all the innards of how this stuff works. I do understand how digital pianos work, the concepts of modelling (I had all that math in college too), etc. Also, I have been involved with midi in various ways since its inception in the 80s, writing midi software, using midi gear, etc. I am no stranger to this technology, but do admit to not knowing the current state of these products on the market, which is why I posted. Just in case I get the hankering to dig around in it, I did purchase the Pro version of Pianoteq, so I can play around with all manner of parameters - or just leave it as is. With the Pro version, the choice is mine. Tony
Last edited by TonyB; 09/14/14 06:05 PM.
Roland V-Grand
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. . . I had a chance to play a "real" acoustic upright today and came away from that experience knowing that Pianoteq with my Casio PX-5S is not a "real" piano, but for my purposes is close enough that practicing with it will make the transition to an acoustic less painful than it otherwise might be just using my Casio PX-5S or my Yamaha Motif XS8. . . . I usually aim for improvement, not perfection.<g> I'm glad you liked Pianoteq. . Charles
. Charles --------------------------- PX-350 / Roland Gaia / Pianoteq
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I tried pianoteq and have to say I am hooked on it. I have now turned off the volume on my casio px120.
Current work in progress: Christmas Canon.
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I tried pianoteq and have to say I am hooked on it. I have now turned off the volume on my casio px120. On my PX-5S, there is a midi sub-menu in which I can (among other things) turn off local mode. Local mode is when what you play on the keys is played using local sounds with local mode on, and when local mode is off, what you play on the keys is only transmitted through the keyboard's midi out. That is what I use when using Pianoteq. I don't have to do anything with the local volume for that. You might want to check to see if your keyboard does that. It has been common practice in keyboards for a very long time, so I suspect most have this feature. Tony
Roland V-Grand
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. . . I had a chance to play a "real" acoustic upright today and came away from that experience knowing that Pianoteq with my Casio PX-5S is not a "real" piano, but for my purposes is close enough that practicing with it will make the transition to an acoustic less painful than it otherwise might be just using my Casio PX-5S or my Yamaha Motif XS8. . . . I usually aim for improvement, not perfection.<g> I'm glad you liked Pianoteq. . Charles Thanks Charles. I agree. Tony
Roland V-Grand
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we are all constrained by variables out of our control, including cost, portability, space, and spouses (my main limiting factor!). Spouses, eh? Exactly how many do you have? Too many would indeed be limiting... I mentioned to my wife that the Nord Stage 2 HA88 was on sale at Guitar Center this weekend. She simply said that if I wanted it, go get it. I didn't because I really don't have the room, but I have never had trouble with my wife on these sorts of things. Tony
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On my PX-5S, there is a midi sub-menu in which I can (among other things) turn off local mode. Tony
It does but turning the volume down to 0 is much easier and i hate waste the effort needed to get into the sub menu to turn it on again.
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On my PX-5S, there is a midi sub-menu in which I can (among other things) turn off local mode. Tony
It does but turning the volume down to 0 is much easier and i hate waste the effort needed to get into the sub menu to turn it on again. I am sure there are many differences in how each of these products is structured. On the PX-5S, this operation (as are most operations on it) is really easy. I realize that some devices can make things more difficult than they should be, so what you say does make sense. Tony
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There are two different, but related _real_ issues here:
1. Is the DP a perfect substitute for an AP ?
2. Is the DP a good enough instrument to be played seriously, and have good music come out of it?
The answer to the first is "no", according to most people (and most people on the forum).
The answer to the second question varies, depending on the player and the DP. But there are a fair number of players who find a DP about which they say:
. . . "Yes -- I can work with this."
Given the current state of the art (and of our budgets), that is usually good enough.
. Charles
PS -- you might want to check some old posts by "bennevis", who uses a V-Piano. He deals with both questions.
Thanks . My views on the past and current state of digital pianos have been stated before ad nauseam, so I won't repeat them here. Except to say that, almost exactly four years since my purchase, I still love playing my V-Piano as much as ever - and I've just returned from playing my monthly recital for colleagues on a 6-foot C. Bechstein grand (- I was practising hard for two hours on my V beforehand, because I had a couple of new pieces to polish up......). And it's still the only DP (apart from its big brother, the V-Piano Grand) that satisfies me as a pianist. Of course, if I own a mansion, and had spare $$££€€, I'd buy a Bösendorfer Imperial 290, and be done with the V and its headphones (OK, I might donate them to a deserving local school )........
If music be the food of love, play on!
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There are two different, but related _real_ issues here:
1. Is the DP a perfect substitute for an AP ?
2. Is the DP a good enough instrument to be played seriously, and have good music come out of it?
The answer to the first is "no", according to most people (and most people on the forum).
The answer to the second question varies, depending on the player and the DP. But there are a fair number of players who find a DP about which they say:
. . . "Yes -- I can work with this."
Given the current state of the art (and of our budgets), that is usually good enough.
. Charles
PS -- you might want to check some old posts by "bennevis", who uses a V-Piano. He deals with both questions.
Thanks . My views on the past and current state of digital pianos have been stated before ad nauseam, so I won't repeat them here. Except to say that, almost exactly four years since my purchase, I still love playing my V-Piano as much as ever - and I've just returned from playing my monthly recital for colleagues on a 6-foot C. Bechstein grand (- I was practising hard for two hours on my V beforehand, because I had a couple of new pieces to polish up......). And it's still the only DP (apart from its big brother, the V-Piano Grand) that satisfies me as a pianist. Of course, if I own a mansion, and had spare $$££€€, I'd buy a Bösendorfer Imperial 290, and be done with the V and its headphones (OK, I might donate them to a deserving local school )........ I seriously considered purchasing a V-Piano and my wife even said it was OK with her. We are recently retired and have some "fun" money from which the cost of the "slab" V-Piano would be a small percentage. However, we simply don't have the room for it. I would need to get rid of my Motif XS8 and replace it with the V-Piano. I want to hang onto my Motif XS8. The Casio PX-5S really doesn't take much room, so it and Pianoteq seem to do OK. Though I have never played a V-Piano, I respect those here who have spoken highly of it and am sorely tempted. Is the V-Piano Grand an upgrade to the V-Piano? It seems to me that if the sound system in it really makes for a realistic piano playing experience, then the issue of monitors, their placement, etc. would be solved by just getting the Grand version. Also, is the Grand version as programmable as the original V-Piano? Tony
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[quote=Is the V-Piano Grand an upgrade to the V-Piano? It seems to me that if the sound system in it really makes for a realistic piano playing experience, then the issue of monitors, their placement, etc. would be solved by just getting the Grand version. Also, is the Grand version as programmable as the original V-Piano?
Tony
The V-Piano Grand is the V-Piano in a baby grand cabinet with a dedicated eight-speaker system with 60W x 4 power output which will easily fill a concert hall in the same manner as a nine-foot concert grand. It is programmable in all parameters like the original V, with the addition of two extra piano sounds which isn't available on the slab version. I played the Grand in a concert hall after its launch concert in London's Royal College of Music (I wrote a full review of it in this forum - though I can't find it now ) - the V-Piano Grand is still the only digital that was introduced to the world via a series of classical concerts in several countries (i.e. unamplified, just like an acoustic concert grand: the sound the audience heard was what came out through its speakers). When I was playing it, it just felt and responded exactly like a beautifully-prepped concert grand. And when I tweaked its sound a little, it was even better...... http://youtu.be/NfOOJYT5MCg (though someone once posted the launch premiere concert from Canada, which was better recorded, but I can't find it now). http://youtu.be/w0-dC7eT_Oo
If music be the food of love, play on!
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[quote=Is the V-Piano Grand an upgrade to the V-Piano? It seems to me that if the sound system in it really makes for a realistic piano playing experience, then the issue of monitors, their placement, etc. would be solved by just getting the Grand version. Also, is the Grand version as programmable as the original V-Piano?
Tony
The V-Piano Grand is the V-Piano in a baby grand cabinet with a dedicated eight-speaker system with 60W x 4 power output which will easily fill a concert hall in the same manner as a nine-foot concert grand. It is programmable in all parameters like the original V, with the addition of two extra piano sounds which isn't available on the slab version. I played the Grand in a concert hall after its launch concert in London's Royal College of Music (I wrote a full review of it in this forum - though I can't find it now ) - the V-Piano Grand is still the only digital that was introduced to the world via a series of classical concerts in several countries (i.e. unamplified, just like an acoustic concert grand: the sound the audience heard was what came out through its speakers). When I was playing it, it just felt and responded exactly like a beautifully-prepped concert grand. And when I tweaked its sound a little, it was even better...... http://youtu.be/NfOOJYT5MCg (though someone once posted the launch premiere concert from Canada, which was better recorded, but I can't find it now). http://youtu.be/w0-dC7eT_Oo Bennevis - thanks for the response. So the V-Piano Grand is an impressive product, then. I think there is a Schmitt Music store in town that has one. I will have to go and check it out. These DPs are expensive, but from what you say here, well worth it. To have a DP that does such an accurate simulation of a properly maintained grand piano and never need tuning/maintenance would, over time, amortize nicely. Thanks... Tony
Roland V-Grand
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