 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
69 members (1200s, aphexdisklavier, akse0435, AlkansBookcase, Alex Hutor, AndyOnThePiano2, amc252, accordeur, 12 invisible),
1,807
guests, and
292
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
"placement coat" (more "shade" than coat :
Used to hide all the traces of the even application of paint or lacquer, (shades, lines at the edge of spray, ...) by spraying from far, crossing and somewhat erratically, it even the reflections)
I thought it was to make the surface. A little rough for the lacquer, but no, not at all.
Watching videos with that in mind...
Do you say a veil of paint, a Voile ?
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
addendum :
the last pass (at 30 cm in HVLP) is only for base coat or metallic base coat, not for the clear that work differently, as they are tensing.
Called "demarbrage" (getting rid of marble aspects) in French
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
Olek
I applaud your efforts to post information in English.
Veil makes sense based on your description.
And demabrage also fits with getting rid of marble aspects.
I am not familiar with these terms or their application.
Your experience is much beyond mine.
Have you ever tried a boiled linseed oil finish?
I did this on a 1913 Knabe:
strip mahogany completely and dewax with tsp wash
dry and raise grain and sand with 180 grit
coat all parts with honey amber Trans Tint Die diluted in water
apply color (hand rub)= dilute equal parts brown and reddish brown transtint dye into boiled linseed oil
use clear linseed oil if color gets too dark
let set up for several hours
make slurry of clear linseed oil and rottenstone and rub it in to fill and highlight the grain
let set up for a couple hours and wipe down very well
let set for several days
apply three very thin coats of amber seedlac schellac (you need to make this up and dewax it)
clear coat with water base Target and polish using finer grits to 1200 then 3M rubbing compound then 3M finesssit
What do you think??
It came out beautiful but was quite a bit of work.
Last edited by Gene Nelson; 09/28/14 06:21 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
Hi Gene, nice recipe with the linseed oil. I don't know if I would have used a water based product on such finish.
Understand it was probably beautiful for the wood.
I have no experience with linseed oil. Was said that the oil quality matters, many can turn yellow in time, but I have limited knowledge of such finishes.
I mostly would use alcohol and pumice plus other coloured powders, to close the grain and create a satinized surface under the shellac.
Or as actually, spray a "hard bottom" to be sanded (PU or Nitro, Pu covers better)
For spraying, I am still experimenting, I just transmit theoretic points or methods as given to me by my friend the car painting teacher (cars, planes, some wood professionals came also for the 7 month curse)
What I did try is to spray a "spray able" lacquer based on Nitro and shellac. This was done on German pianos in the 60' then hand rubbed with "crystal alcohol polish (benjoin)"
Used the process for black with last costs by hand. Works fine but the finish is not allowing you to have a party on the piano!
The fine sanding and polishing recipe for clears is very valuable, as having good pneumatic sander(small and large).
Sanding dry until trizac 3000 6000 can be used slighly wet, but very fast as no much to sand at that point.
Then using very small quantities of polishing pastes so the foam pads stay clean (a mist of water if the paste get dry on the surface). Makes polishing faster (!) in the end.
I hope some of those can help.
I am of the type of guy that try to have as much theoretical bases as possible when trying new things. It seem to help understand better our own fails, or success..
Not always easy to find the good instructor, for things that are learned by doing and copying gesture.
Regards
Cool! Edit works again.
The principle :hand sanding get the grain to be considered 2 times thicker, is good to remind, when working with fine grits. I was surprised while machine sanding and finishing by hand, to get rid of machine traces, that I generally obtained more and stronger streaks whole using the same grit. I would not have imagined that the difference is that large, grain wise.
That also mean ;if you sand by hand up to a point, then take the orbital, if you begin with the same grain you have eventually passed more than 1 size up. For instance from 400 by hand, you may need to use 320 on the machine so to have the same as working by hand with 600.
Last edited by Olek; 09/28/14 10:36 PM.
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
And thanks for trying to understand my English. It is even worse since I use a cell phone and the automatic words predictions. Not easy on a small screen to get all the typos and nonsense.. (and lately I could not edit my posts on PW)
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 151
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 151 |
Gene ...can you post some pics of the knabe? It sounds gorgeous!
Ken Zaleski
Once upon a tune...old world piano tuning and restoration
Friendsville, PA
Dampp Chaser certified installer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
Hey Kennyz,
I would be happy to do this.
I think I understand the upload instructions but my photos need editing - just a bit too large.
Without an editor I need to figure a different way to do this so when I figure it out I will post.
Gene
x-rpt
retired ptg member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
Gene the easiest way to give access to your pics is to upload them to Google. (Google pics or googleplus)
From there they will be the good dimension.
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,677
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,677 |
www.tinypic.comIf I can use it, anybody can!
Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 151
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 151 |
Thanks Gene ....I look forward to seeing it. We own a 1902 6' that's my wife's and I have a 1934 5'4" awaiting restoration.
Ken Zaleski
Once upon a tune...old world piano tuning and restoration
Friendsville, PA
Dampp Chaser certified installer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 264
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 264 |
Gene,
You had much better luck than I did with linseed oil. It really majes me nervous since the rags can explode.
I am currently experiment with S/W Polyurethane Varnish. It doesn't yellow and is crystal clear. And it can be sprayed. So far looks beautiful over mahogany that has been stained with transtint Brown Mahogany.
cc
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
following instructions to the letter to post pic in the photo gallery and they do not get there so working on plan b.
x-rpt
retired ptg member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
Gene,
You had much better luck than I did with linseed oil. It really majes me nervous since the rags can explode.
I am currently experiment with S/W Polyurethane Varnish. It doesn't yellow and is crystal clear. And it can be sprayed. So far looks beautiful over mahogany that has been stained with transtint Brown Mahogany.
cc Just open up the rags and let them sit in the sun for a couple days and they will not combust.
x-rpt
retired ptg member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
http://tinypic.com/r/k0rfwn/8plan b 1913 knabe near completion of complete restoration. photo shows linseed oil finish - recipe posted earlier in this thread
x-rpt
retired ptg member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 151
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 151 |
Nice job Gene, looks great! How many hours do you figure you've got int the finish?
Ken Zaleski
Once upon a tune...old world piano tuning and restoration
Friendsville, PA
Dampp Chaser certified installer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 264
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 264 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
Gene , I see what you mean with grain enhancing.
It looks nice, lot of contrast. Good shine.
Congratulations
Last edited by Olek; 09/30/14 12:37 AM.
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230 |
Gene,
S/W Polyurethane Varnish. What mean ? Polyurethane based varnishes/lacquers are covering well (used when one want to have a closed grain finish, as Nitro based stay thin and always "fall", the pore open sometime a few days later, so one need many coats of "hard bottom". Do you use those "hard bottom" products, that are just to close the grain and prepare/isolate the surface before the clear is used ? They are a little thick at 50-60 secs (DIN I think) but can be sprayed with 1.6 1.8, 2.0 (mm) and contain a powder that make sanding/leveling easy. I do not know what is the name in ENglish, but using the final varnish to close the grain is extremely expensive, as the good lacquers are expensive, about * 1.5 the price of that first coat. You may want to have a look at automotive clears, they are of course very robust, contain always an UV barrier, are transparent of course and can be sanded polished if wanted (not necessary in common use as they tense very well an shine immediately) An undercoat is used , polyurethane there also for us, but cars use epoxy primer apparently- those products are intended to be sanded. (sanding usual epoxy ...!!!) good for plates certainly. there 1.8 -2.2 mm (3M - I think sells guns with disposable needle/cap, as the cleaning of epoxy is not easy) PU Fumes are very nasty but you seem to have a spray booth or good air flow anyway. (still allowed in France but I am VERY cautious with those) If what I see on pics is extracting air you may wish to protect your fans with a filter, this is not expensive. No dust for 10 minutes - with some "fast repair" products that do not need cooking, and are the ones that are adapted to our job (much solids, so one pass is enough - one pass means 2 passes with the gun + corrections before it get catalyzed, but those fast products mean you must spray fast too, unless you cut them a bit) "metal powders" (mica) for car painting are very expensive. But if they do not corrode in time, well, it is worth using them. the car laquer (extra fast an high solid (HS)) is about 30€ plus taxes here. ( 1 liter /kg lacquer plus catalyzer) the catalyzer have a short shelf life (a few months) so better buy small quantities. The resin can be conserved. BTW about resin epoxy. a hot water bath allow old resin to mix well (the crystals usually goes to the bottom of the can. I used 8 years old resin after having been explained the process by my resin dealer (and maker) who used 10 years old resin to make his boat , with success. After heating (adding energy) an stirring , the resin get transparent again. )
Last edited by Olek; 09/30/14 08:34 AM.
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
Nice job Gene, looks great! How many hours do you figure you've got int the finish? Thank you. Did not keep track but guessing around 40+
x-rpt
retired ptg member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
Gene,
S/W Polyurethane Varnish. What mean ? Polyurethane based varnishes/lacquers are covering well (used when one want to have a closed grain finish, as Nitro based stay thin and always "fall", the pore open sometime a few days later, so one need many coats of "hard bottom". Do you use those "hard bottom" products, that are just to close the grain and prepare/isolate the surface before the clear is used ? They are a little thick at 50-60 secs (DIN I think) but can be sprayed with 1.6 1.8, 2.0 (mm) and contain a powder that make sanding/leveling easy. I do not know what is the name in ENglish, but using the final varnish to close the grain is extremely expensive, as the good lacquers are expensive, about * 1.5 the price of that first coat. You may want to have a look at automotive clears, they are of course very robust, contain always an UV barrier, are transparent of course and can be sanded polished if wanted (not necessary in common use as they tense very well an shine immediately) An undercoat is used , polyurethane there also for us, but cars use epoxy primer apparently- those products are intended to be sanded. (sanding usual epoxy ...!!!) good for plates certainly. there 1.8 -2.2 mm (3M - I think sells guns with disposable needle/cap, as the cleaning of epoxy is not easy) PU Fumes are very nasty but you seem to have a spray booth or good air flow anyway. (still allowed in France but I am VERY cautious with those) If what I see on pics is extracting air you may wish to protect your fans with a filter, this is not expensive. No dust for 10 minutes - with some "fast repair" products that do not need cooking, and are the ones that are adapted to our job (much solids, so one pass is enough - one pass means 2 passes with the gun + corrections before it get catalyzed, but those fast products mean you must spray fast too, unless you cut them a bit) "metal powders" (mica) for car painting are very expensive. But if they do not corrode in time, well, it is worth using them. the car laquer (extra fast an high solid (HS)) is about 30€ plus taxes here. ( 1 liter /kg lacquer plus catalyzer) the catalyzer have a short shelf life (a few months) so better buy small quantities. The resin can be conserved. BTW about resin epoxy. a hot water bath allow old resin to mix well (the crystals usually goes to the bottom of the can. I used 8 years old resin after having been explained the process by my resin dealer (and maker) who used 10 years old resin to make his boat , with success. After heating (adding energy) an stirring , the resin get transparent again. ) I like Target EM6000 or previously Enduro clear for filling the grain as well as clear coat. It is heavy with solids and cuts easily with abrasives. The only other grain filler was the rotten stone I used on the linseed oil finish. Here in California at least in my county I cannot legally purchase nitro lacquer so it is not an option. This is another reason I shifted to water based.
Last edited by Gene Nelson; 09/30/14 02:11 PM.
x-rpt
retired ptg member
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,390
Posts3,349,248
Members111,632
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
