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#2331808 - 09/28/14 09:11 AM Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music?
Musictogether Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 3
Hello,

I am seeking advice from teachers. My son began learning piano in first grade with a piano major college student. He progressed quickly (2 1/2 levels per year). The college student was too busy to allocate extra time (15 minutes per week) to teaching theory so we sought out college student theory tutors in order to keep him on track for future Certificate of Merit exams

We also looked for a more seasoned teacher. We selected a highly regarded retiring professor who told us that theory would be covered. There are theory books that are used to prepare for the exam. For the last 6 months with the new teacher has not covered or inquired about theory. We asked him and he said he covers it within the context of a song.
We told him that we would continue with a tutor for 2 more months since relationship was already established and more cost effective to use college students rather than professor for that. We asked for a sample exam and it was administered. Our son did well and scored 94 percent. We told the teacher that tutors would no longer be available but professor still didn't teach theory or inquire about progress.

The professor only wants to focus on songs. The professor assigns very advanced music. My son started with him 6 months ago at level 4 but professor assigns level 6-7 songs primarily. Also assigned a level 8 song Mozart rondo k 485 and a level 10 song also. My son is only age 7. He is learning well but theory is being ignored. I am concerned about exams in the spring and having to keep reminding teacher. Since professor is retired seems very laid back and focused on travel etc.

I have talked to him and he says he will cover it but I have to keep reminding. I asked professor for sample test for next level of exams but he said he doesn't have samples and would need to order. He never followed through.

He was highly recommended. I am very confused. Why advanced music but no theory? Should we find another teacher?

http://www.mtac.org/programs/performance/certificate-of-merit/

I would be most grateful for any suggestions.

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#2331842 - 09/28/14 11:43 AM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 315
Loc: CA
I am parent -- not a teacher. I was also really passionate about music when I was younger. So my opinion is from a musician's perspective, and not just an observer.

Ask the teacher for specifics about why he is not covering theory now, when he plans to cover theory, and how he plans to cover it. I actually am a huge believer in teaching theory in the context of what you are learning, rather than in a vacuum -- so that POV really resonates with me.

I would highly encourage to not approach theory as something to pass the merit exams. Think of it as something that will help you analyze music to understand the structure, and apply it to improvise or even compose. I used to play rock and blues, and the only reason to understand theory was to apply it to quickly identify chord patters, and improvise leads.

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#2331875 - 09/28/14 01:43 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11708
Loc: Canada
If the teacher you have hired is actually competent and understands how music works, including theory and its role in music, then you need to trust how he is working. If I hired a painter, I can tell him I want blue walls, with the outer doors painted white, but it would be foolish for me to tell him how to prime the walls, and what kind of paint and primer he should use. Not unless I'm hiring a high school kid in order to save money, and I know more than he does. Well, that is what you may be doing.

Also, do you want your child to pass exams, or do you want your child to be able to play music and understand it so he can play and appreciate it better? Theory isn't just a subject - it plays a role in music. I'm not an expert in pieces, but I recognize at least some of the pieces, and they may have a direct role in theory teaching because of what is in these pieces.

If you have some background in music, the professor may be able to explain to you what he is aiming for, and how. If not, it may be harder.

A note about "levels" of pieces - there are different ways that pieces can be categorized depending on what is being taught in them, how they are being used etc. You may want to ask this teacher why he is choosing these pieces for your son in particular, and in general ask his thoughts on the things you have set out here.

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#2331876 - 09/28/14 01:45 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11708
Loc: Canada
I fear the quote function is still on the blink: here's hoping

[quote=rlinkt [i]I would highly encourage to not approach theory as something to pass the merit exams. Think of it as something that will help you analyze music to understand the structure, and apply it to improvise or even compose. [/i][/quote]

Agree.

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#2331883 - 09/28/14 01:58 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
I have only one word for you:

Being BALANCE is important!!
_________________________
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Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Watch the introduction video on YouTube
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#2331996 - 09/28/14 08:09 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
Musictogether Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 3
Thank you very much for your responses. I truly appreciate it.

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#2332011 - 09/28/14 09:20 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
hreichgott Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1036
Loc: western MA, USA
I don't know if this is why, but a 7-year-old is still thinking mostly concretely. Abstract analytical thought really comes into full bloom around age 10-12 and that's a great time to start theory. 7-year-olds need data much more than they need theory, and it sounds like that's exactly what he's getting. Then when he does start theory he'll have lots of example pieces to help him understand the theory he's learning.

What is the purpose of exams at this age?
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2332017 - 09/28/14 09:47 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
[quote=Heather]Abstract analytical thought really comes into full bloom around age 10-12 and that's a great time to start theory.[/quote]

I agree that the abstract analytical thought comes into full bloom around age 10 or 12, but I disagree that a great time to start theory is age 10.

I teach theory to as young as 4. Of course I use age appropriate material.

To OP: You ought to find a teacher that can balance things. It sound like it is really unbalance, having your child playing so advance music with no theory background at all. It sounds like teaching a puppet to play piano without teaching him how to understand it.
_________________________
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#2332133 - 09/29/14 08:07 AM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
jdw Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 982
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
But if I understood correctly, the child does have appropriate theory knowledge for his level and scored 94% on the last practice test. Isn't it possible that the teacher thinks other things are what's needed to bring things into balance? It sounds as if the boy is not having any trouble with the pieces, so they're not too hard for him. That seems more important to me than worrying about their graded level.

I'm not a piano teacher, though.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2332136 - 09/29/14 08:22 AM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11708
Loc: Canada
Is it about passing tests, or understanding music?

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#2332138 - 09/29/14 08:41 AM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
Musictogether Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 3
Thank you again for the thought provoking feedback. The teacher clarified yesterday that my son plays at a level 8 but due to his age and grade in school would test at a level 3. I have been very concerned with bridging the gap between playing ability and theory knowledge but teacher thinks that it is unnecessary. I thought my son was about a level 5 in playing piano but teacher apparently keeps giving him increasingly challenging music and he just learns it. Now that I see that his level is higher I believe it would be futile to try to bridge such a gap. Developmentally and mathematically he is just not ready for the more advanced level of theory since he just started third grade.

For certificate of merit he needs to learn three level 3 songs to perform. Yesterday the teacher said he would perform songs that he has already learned. One is a level 9 song the other two are levels 6 and 7. Teacher said judges will accept songs above testing level. Why would teacher submit playing songs above testing level 3? Written exam will be level 3. I wasn't at lesson otherwise I would have asked. My spouse was there this week.

Thank you again for feedback. We will stick with this teacher until next year at least.

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#2332154 - 09/29/14 10:11 AM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
[quote=OP]One is a level 9 song the other two are levels 6 and 7[/quote]

Dear OP:
I am a CM teacher. I believe that out of three songs, one has to be from the syllabus at level 3. The rest of two can be higher level.
Check with your teacher.
_________________________
http://ezpiano.org
Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Watch the introduction video on YouTube
@ http://bit.ly/Ready123

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#2332420 - Yesterday at 01:07 AM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: ezpiano.org]
musicpassion Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 998
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Dear OP:
I am a CM teacher. I believe that out of three songs, one has to be from the syllabus at level 3. The rest of two can be higher level.
Check with your teacher.
I am also a CM teacher and yes, that sounds right. The remaining songs can be at or above level, but you need the syllabus piece. Be sure to ask the teacher about this, as the "retired professor" type sometimes might not keep up to date with all the little details.
_________________________
Pianist and Piano Teacher

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#2332422 - Yesterday at 01:10 AM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: keystring]
musicpassion Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 998
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: keystring
Is it about passing tests, or understanding music?
Are you implying the two are mutually exclusive? I think tests are good for some pianists, not for others. Some get a good sense of accomplishment from taking the tests.
_________________________
Pianist and Piano Teacher

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#2332454 - Yesterday at 04:29 AM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: musicpassion]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11708
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: musicpassion
Originally Posted By: keystring
Is it about passing tests, or understanding music?
Are you implying the two are mutually exclusive? I think tests are good for some pianists, not for others. Some get a good sense of accomplishment from taking the tests.

Notice that I asked a question rather than making a statement. It is always better to state things outright rather than have people try to guess what you mean. So no, I was not implying that. Had that been my thought, I would have said so.

The OP wrote a lot about tests, and that is why I asked the question. It was also to put these two different concepts out there.

My actual thinking was that the teacher probably has a plan in what he is doing, because as a musician and teacher he knows how things hang together. You can teach theory abstractly, or you can have a student experience things in music and then derive the theory from the experience you have created. This might lead to a more musical or more "real" understanding of theory and its connection to music.

The bottom line is that if this is a competent teacher, then he has his ways of doing things for his reasons, including in what order he does what. I can tell a teacher that I'd like my child to learn theory, but when and how he teaches it has to be up to him. And if in a forum we are to question his decisions, we would have to hear the reasoning from the teacher. Two teachers may work in opposite ways, yet both can be correct, and even agree with each other about the ultimate goals.

So my not so short answer is, that this is what was behind my question. smile

Btw, I agree with what you wrote.

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#2332611 - Yesterday at 01:46 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: keystring]
musicpassion Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 998
Loc: California, USA
Ok - thanks for the response. You are right, and I think the OP's kid is probably working with a good teacher.
_________________________
Pianist and Piano Teacher

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#2332778 - Yesterday at 10:46 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
Jonathan Baker Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 372
Loc: New York City!
I rather resent the word "theory" regarding the elements and structure of music because of its pseudo-scientific association as well as the misunderstanding of the meaning of the word. But moving beyond that, what does your child actually need in terms of understanding music?

Your son probably understands minor and major scales and chords (or will soon enough) and the cadences those chords make possible, but it should all be tied in with pieces he is studying already. He should understand time signatures and a variety of music symbols. When a composition he is studying is in A-B-A form it should be pointed out. But all of that is actually rather elementary and not difficult to grasp. Harmonic progressions are essential, but again, that should be illustrated within the music.

Beyond that, what does he need? The only other things at this point I would encourage is daily sight reading, but just a little and it must be easy. Likewise, learning to harmonize simple two or three chord tunes, and I include elementary transposition - but again, all of it should be made easily accessible and ordinary.

These are basic matters. From my perspective, so-called theory is the easiest part of learning music - the hardest part is gaining control of technique.
_________________________
Jonathan Baker
http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

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#2332997 - Today at 12:03 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: Jonathan
These are basic matters. From my perspective, so-called theory is the easiest part of learning music - the hardest part is gaining control of technique.


I am 100% agree with you! It is so easy such as learning 3/4 time is for three beats per measure etc...

That is also I do not understand why the professor wouldn't cover it. All you need is a work book, 2 minutes each lesson to go over the subject and have the student do the homework at home. Some of the "smart" one can even read the book themselves and answer the questions. For me, being systematic to make sure all elements are cover for a certain level is important. I teach theory along with the repertoire too, just like this professor told the mom: "When it is in the repertoire, then I teach it". However, this method is just not through enough to make sure all are covered while a standard theory textbook or workbook can eliminate my worries of not being through enough.
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#2333014 - Today at 12:49 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Jonathan Baker Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 372
Loc: New York City!
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I teach theory along with the repertoire too, just like this professor told the mom: "When it is in the repertoire, then I teach it". However, this method is just not through enough to make sure all are covered while a standard theory textbook or workbook can eliminate my worries of not being through enough.


I follow a similar approach because not all elements of music are covered in the exact pieces a student is learning. For instance, perhaps there are no pieces in 5/8 or 7/8 currently in their repertoire, but I will show them how to deal with those meters so that when they encounter them they are not confused. Or how to build chords they may not have encountered yet as a way of 'laying the groundwork' for pieces to come.

I remember studying composition with Ludmila Ulehla at the Manhattan School of Music - she was a tremendous teacher - and I took to her Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra - I had been struggling with some parts of it, but her analysis was so crystal clear that the work was revealed to me through her eyes and ears, and now the concerto was simple and accessible.

I said, "You make this all seem so easy!" She giggled in that way she did, and said, "But it is easy!" And, indeed, it was easy to her, and now it was easy to me as well. I have always remember that lesson in more ways than one: I want my teaching of 'theory' to make music clearer, easier, more accessible, and not more convoluted and confusing.
_________________________
Jonathan Baker
http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

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#2333027 - Today at 02:10 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11708
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
That is also I do not understand why the professor wouldn't cover it.

I must admit that I have been uneasy about some of the comments about what the professor is doing. We have almost no information, and the professor himself has not told us anything - it is only the few things the parent has told us. None of us has heard the child play, or know how he approaches or practices pieces. We don't know what the professor found when the child came to him as a transfer student, or what strengths and weaknesses he is addressing. We know that child was taught theory before coming to him, and that even now he is being tutored in theory by someone else. Maybe it's out of balance and the professor is trying to restore balance. Or maybe the professor is unwise - we don't know - because we literally don't know.

We do not know what this teacher's plans are, or what he is doing, or what he has set up for this student, or what stage he is in his plans for this student. I forget whether the student has been with him for a long time or has only recently transferred.

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#2333030 - Today at 02:15 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
KS:
That is why I said I do not understand instead of saying "That is stupid of him not covering theory".

You and me have same information about this case, which is: The professor is not covering theory. He only covers it in repertoire.
_________________________
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#2333033 - Today at 02:35 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
Jonathan Baker Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 372
Loc: New York City!
Keystring raises valid points about the lack of input from aforementioned "professor".

On a somewhat different line of reasoning, I would need to examine the "Certificate of Merit exams" personally before commenting on how well organized they are. Exams should only be used as markers along the road, not the end of the road, or priorities will be seriously skewered.

There is not enough information presented in this case. I get a sense of anxiety from this sentence, "I have talked to him and he says he will cover it but I have to keep reminding." This beginning to sound like pestering the teacher. What is the parent's overall goal for this child? That needs to be spelled out. I feel the push of forward motion, but forward to what?
_________________________
Jonathan Baker
http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

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#2333036 - Today at 02:51 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Musictogether]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
I always tell the parents that the CM test is a tool, we want to use and control it. At the same time, we want to avoid to be used and control by it.
_________________________
http://ezpiano.org
Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Watch the introduction video on YouTube
@ http://bit.ly/Ready123

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#2333158 - Today at 09:34 PM Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: Jonathan Baker]
hreichgott Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1036
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker

Your son probably understands minor and major scales and chords (or will soon enough) and the cadences those chords make possible, but it should all be tied in with pieces he is studying already. He should understand time signatures and a variety of music symbols. When a composition he is studying is in A-B-A form it should be pointed out.

Oh, this is not what I think of when I hear "theory" -- this is "rudiments" or "fundamentals" to me. If this is the material the OP meant, then I completely take back my earlier comment. Rudiments/fundamentals should definitely be taught to all students as part of learning to read music.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2333178 - 6 minutes 55 seconds ago Re: Teacher not covering theory and assigns too advanced music? [Re: hreichgott]
Jonathan Baker Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 372
Loc: New York City!
Originally Posted By: hreichgott

Oh, this is not what I think of when I hear "theory" -- this is "rudiments" or "fundamentals" to me. If this is the material the OP meant, then I completely take back my earlier comment. Rudiments/fundamentals should definitely be taught to all students as part of learning to read music.


We are talking about a 7 year-old boy, are we not?

Paul Hindemith's The Craft of Musical Composition can want until he is 8 years old. If he is a slow learner, then 9 or 10 years old.
_________________________
Jonathan Baker
http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

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