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Seeking advice from pros.

I owned an unrestored 1923 Steinway 0 for 8 years. Loved everything about it, but it's age was catching up with it, constant tuning etc was needed, and finally I was offered a decent price for it and sold it.

Bought a 2004 Mason and Hamlin. Loved the rich sonorous sound, but never ever adapted to the touch. Just sold it to a terrific lady who will treat it like family. Feels good.

Incidentally I grew up with both an old Baldwin and a Chickering grand. I'm beginning to realize, after two Summers in Europe--will explain(I don't have as much money as that little tidbit may imply)-- that after the sound I'm looking for, the touch needs to not only be a strong, resistant touch, but also one with the original "natural" keys(and I'm a strong supporter of animal rights, anti poaching, etc). Sad that this is what I've learned after so many years. Slaughtered intelligent beasts from long ago give me pleasure today. I hate admitting this fact.

I've tried newer Steinways--- they just don't do it for me. Seem muddled in some sense. I don't understand it. But throw an older one in front of me and I can play all day. Probably my favorite brand of piano, but only older and with those cruelly gotten keytops.

My Europe trip allowed me to visit some piano shops. Rather fun to stroll around and see no older Baldwins, Wurlitzers, Story and Clarks, etc. Many of the older brands I didn't even recognize---but two of them really got to me. A French piano called a GAVEAU and an English piano called Chappell. The Gaveau melted under my fingers. What a beautiful, haunting sound. Sublime. I'd never heard anything like it before. It couldn't have been over 5'3" in length. Was from the 20's. Not to mention it's beautiful cabinet. I fell in love, in Paris, with that sexy inanimate object. We had a one afternoon stand! The things I did with my fingers...but it wasn't just physical, oh no, because my heart was pounding, and then finally broken when we parted. I shall never forget that wonderful, rainy afternoon when I fell in love with an older...seasoned, even worn....well...piano. Now you know why it pleases me that my Mason is in better, more appreciative hands. I just don't like em young!

The Chappell was a rather perfect in between of the European sound--which I love for Classical and early romantic works, and American sound(which I favor for Rach and Scriabin et al). Wonderful surprise.

Cavendish-- the new British piano--- I wanted to like them. Deep in the heart of glorious Yorkshire. But they weren't my cup of cream tea.

Finally my question: when I play a newer Bechstein, for instance, and perhaps find it too light or cold or tinkly, can I expect an old Bechstein which has been restored to have a fuller, richer sound? Again, I'm only using Bechstein as an example. I could just as easily say Bosendorfer. Quite obviously I see many more older Steinways and Masons here in the U.S. I adore them. But would an older German piano be less "clean" in tone? Some are just too clean for my tastes--- but I haven't experienced all German pianos, to be sure, and wouldn't want to lump them together. Are there even enough of them out there to visit and play? Restored ones. Last time I was in New York I didn't see very many.

I currently have my grandfathers old Baldwin workhorse. Fine old thing, but not my penultimate piano.
Any suggestions about anything would be greatly appreciated. (Anyone know of or have a Gaveau that somehow immigrated over here? ). I'll gladly cheat on my Baldwin!
Does anyone actually know anything about Gaveau pianos? or the keep calm and carry on whilst the Scots decide their fate Chappell? (Can't help that last bit--- everyone in the pubs in England didn't seem to give a damn. Should've said keep drinking and carry on).
Thanks!

If the Baldwin is not your penultimate piano, how many pianos do you expect to go through before you get to your ultimate piano?

It sounds like you need to find a good technician, rather than waiting for a piano to come along.

It's being loaned out to me, and I have a great technician. Did you not read my post? The Steinway was old --- technician can only do so much. It would've needed a rebuild.
The Mason was my reaction to owning an older piano. Thought that newer would be better.

Thanks for your informative and helpful response.

Someone can only do so much for a given amount of money. A 1923 Steinway can be made into a very good piano for enough money. It still should be less than an equivalent new piano, if the right person does it. I play a 1920 O which, for a minimal amount of work, is as nice as the 2005 O that a friend of mine has.

What, specifically, was problematic about your 2004 Mason's touch?

I had it looked at. I debated for a long time about rebuilding it. I had it voiced by our top tech in Cinti(he's respected on this forum). It was wearing out. I loved that piano. I composed many many pieces on that piano, but things just kept getting worse and then a student of mine who plays Joplin offered to buy it. At the same time, another student offered to sell her Mason.m
I noticed you have both. Maybe there isn't a penultimate piano-- but searching, with more patience this time, may be worthwhile. Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion.
I'm hoping to have one of my questions answered by someone as well.

The keytops, to be honest. I didn't realize it at the time because Inenjoyed the sounds so much, but I never adapted to them the way I had the old Steinway. It was also like a Steinway extreme in its feel and sound. No hint of the European sound. Maybe a piano that falls somewhere in between(like the Chappell) doesn't exist over here.
This is my main query.

I'm probably looking for another older piano but this time restored. I realize that many posters here favore newer pianos.

Please note that this is and never was meant to be an attack on Mason and Hamlins. Or Bechsteins. Or Modern Steinways. They're all great pianos. Perhaps it's another Mason that will work for me, who knows? But I'd bet it will be older.

Somewhere on PW there is a link to an audio clip of my restored Bechstein in answer to your question.

Thank you Phillip! That's a good start for me. Your response was what I've been looking for.

A Gaveau grand is pretty rare over here. I've played just one and only once. It was a nice piano. It wasn't in peak condition, so I'm not sure how it could compare to other pianos. It seemed to me that it was doing it's own thing - not trying to be like all the other pianos at all.

An old Bechstein or Bluthner or Bosendorfer will be both warm and clear, but may not be particularly powerful. I'd love to know what part of their construction makes them sound so special.

If you play one, and are smitten with it as is, but it will need a rebuild in your lifetime, you will live in fear of how much the tone and touch will change in the shop, and you should expect it to be very hard to sell. It will likely end up with bone or mineral-plastic keys, and I don't know what those are like.

If you are still interested, you should call rebuilders for advice. They will know how to find these pianos. Since you loved the Steinway, I expect you would love an old American piano just as much. I have never heard a Knabe or a Chickering, but I'd like to try one.

Full disclosure: I am crazy about my ancient Bechstein. I have also heard gorgeous recordings of old Bluthners, and did not mind Rich Galassini's 1910 Bosendorfer video either.

Here it is:
http://audiour.com/playlist/225da1fc

I think Cziffra used to play Gaveau pianos IIRC.

Thank you, all, for your advice. Philip sent me a private PM and I'm going to listen to it now.
I realize that I can take a trip to Atlanta or New York and play many nice old restored Steinways. I should do this, maybe I'll come across a restored Bechstein or other German piano as well. Not so old that the action would still be Viennese, but old enough to give that particular sound I'm looking for.

Marinelife--- you are absolutely right. This was my fear about restoring my old Steinway. I'd spoken to Mr Bennett in Atlanta(Sam?) who couldn't have been nicer or more honest. Terrific guy. This was a couple years ago. But I worried that it would sound/feel completely different. My own dumb problem, I know.

One of my students had his Steinway L restored at another place-- he loved the change. But it was a big change, so finding an already restored piano is probably my best bet.
Btw---Kathryn Bigelow just came out with a short film connecting elephant poaching to terrorism. I need to see it. She's a terrific director.

Well done Wimpiano!

Philip--- wow!

That's the older, resonant sound I love. Just beautiful.

I must start planning my journey!

Can't thank you enough.

Philipinchina,
The piece was beautiful,never heard it before.But the Bechstein sounded like some voicing would improve it a lot. The treble hammers sounded somewhat glassy to me.
Bechstein can be very nice though thats for sure.

That was when I first bought the piano. It has been worked on since and now is much better.

Glad you liked it. I am very happy with it.

Chernobieff--- are you the one who posts those terrific bios on YouTube of older piano Manufacturers? I can't stress enough how much I've enjoyed them. I found them by accident when I was searching for info on a Wing and Son piano.
Thank you for all of the work it has taken to do that.

I shall now go check out your site!
Kip