Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner About ZOOM Q4 and external mic recorded in echoed room.

Hi I have recorded my performance with ZOOM Q4. It sounds better than general video cams. But it is not clear enough and too soft when playing with TV. However, the room is very echoed because of many glasses and granite floor. I have to record in this place because there is good grand piano in it. Btw,I have an idea that maybe I buy external mic to plug in "ext in" slot. So anyone has experience about it? I think the internal mic is great(it is an XY mic as the manual written) but not great enough in this particular room. Does good ext mic sound better? Does the mic have plug that fit in "ext in" slot? (I doubt about it if large mic has this small size plug.) Thank you

If the sound is too quiet, you need to adjust the mic gain. If there's too much echo, the only thing you can do is put the mic closer to the piano and/or select a more directional pickup pattern.

The best thing you can do is experiment with microphone placement and the settings for pattern and gain.

If you really need video, then an external microphone might help, but only if it's directional and can be placed closer to the piano. I personally use separate video and audio recorders and sync the audio in my video editing software.

This is a problem with the nature of the Zoom Q4 - the microphones are part of the camera, and the best place for the camera is rarely the best place for the microphones.

(I use a Kodak Zi8 and a Zoom H1. I set the microphones up about 8 feet away from the piano and about 5-6 feet high.)

The exact arrangement below, using my H2, produced the sound in the link using mp3, 256kbps.



Recording made with H2 as in picture.

My room has thick carpet and curtains too. I am very happy with the results, but I am getting on in years and probably cannot discern variations in recording quality anyway.

Edit: Sorry, I should have posted this in the thread about sound recorders, so I have written it there too.

Thank you for replies guys.
I have to record pieces for a competition and the rule is must record with a single camera without any edit.
So I think recording separate video and audio is not allowed(you said you have to edit them again on a program)
Btw, I would like to ask if a good external mic is better than int mic of Q4 or not.
And if better, please suggest which brand and model(at a reasonable price would be great! :)).

Hi tobevirtuoso,

For a competition recording you need good quality audio, that is clear and as representative of your playing as possible.
Piano is one of the hardest instruments to record and the recordings that we hear on professional recordings are usually done using very expensive condenser or ribbon multi microphones and other equipment.

So, what can you do?

I have skimmed through the Q4 manual and that the gain setting for the X-Y mics has manual and auto settings.
First be sure that you set the gain to MANUAL. Then you should try with the Low, Medium or High sensitivity for the recording volume and see if you can achieve a louder signal level. Of course there should be no clipping.

Also you should set the audio sampling to at least 44100 Hz and the bit rate to 16. For a higher quality you can also try 48000 Hz and 24 bit too.

Now if you are still not satisfied with the audio quality you should connect and outside source to the Q4 for audio.

Q4 has a combo line/mic input (EXT IN) which you can connect an external source. In this case the onboard X-Y mics are disabled and the audio portion of the video is fed from the EXT IN.

Unfortunately, the LINE LEVEL INPUT has been found questionable by this article.

http://filmtvsound.com/index.php/112-news/356-zoom-q4-first-look

But still it seems it can handle a -10dB signal when the sensitivity is set to Low in Manual Gain.

Also the plug in power is only for consumer type electret microphones and should not be confused with Phantom power, which is used on high quality condenser mics. I don't think a consumer type electret mini plug microphone would result in any better quality audio then the onboard X-Y mics.

But there is this option also:
That is you can have two same type (preferably matched pair) quality condenser type mics that are connected to a preamp and then you can connect the -10dB line out of the preamp to the EXT IN of the Q4.
In this way you can record video and audio without the need for any editing afterwards (which is prohibited) and also you can place the two mics at a more appropriate position.

This is how I make my recordings. I use a Q3HD (which also has a EXT IN port).
I use two matched pair of Rode NT5 mics with Omni capsules (but since the room is reflective you can also try the directional cardioid capsules).
And finally you need a preamp/mixer/interface with Phantom power capability that you can connect the condenser mics.
(I use a Soundcraft Sprit Notepad mixer)

This would cost you around $750 ($500 for the mics + $250 for the preamp).

There are of course other mics and several preamps to choose from, which are discussed on this and other Piano World forums before. You can search for recording piano which will give many useful threads.

Finally, here is a video that you can hear my setup's audio quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlEcM6vL2Lk&list=UU-z3gjPNHBYVf0sMsRmndRg

I hope this helps.

Hi Hakki,
Thanks a lot for very much information
Your video has very clear sound(and beautiful performance of course)
However, I know very little about technology of mic and other equipment added to it.
I only skim by your post that there are
1.condensed mic (or 2 mics simultaneously??)
2.preamp
3.-10 dB??
4.using manual gain
Hope you will explain more. Sorry for that.

I think you can give the Zoom Q4 a second chance.

Why not MAKE a VIDEO with the Zoom Q4 using ONBOARD MICS?

Set the GAIN to MANUAL. And the level to MEDIUM.
Set to PCM WAV at 44100 SAMPLING RATE and 16 BIT RATE.

POST the VIDEO on YouTube or similar site (you always have the choice to make it private so that only the ones who know the link can see it.

Make a NEW TOPIC on Pianist Corner Forum and post the LINK to your VIDEO.

ASK, WHETHER this video is any GOOD for COMPETITION.

Edit: You can also post just the audio part for privacy.

OK.

Here are the items that you need.

TWO CONDERSER OMNI MICS. For example:
http://www.gear4music.com/Recording-and-Computers/Rode-NT55-Studio-Condenser-Mic-Matched-Pair/72P

Then you need TWO mic stands.

Then you need a preamp or mixer with at least TWO XLR INPUTS.

Then you need TWO XLR CABLES.

Then you need a Y-CABLE. From preamp/mixer/interface 1/4" L-R output to 3.5mm mini jack of the Zoom Q4 (ext in)

That is all.

Hi Hakki,
I just already have time to upload my recording to web.
So please comment about sound quality.
Thank you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c21103mJi40&list=UUUDFGuwhwHa9ur3CAO5LcUA

Hi tobevirtuoso,

You play wonderfully!!

But, the sound quality is not acceptable for a competition recording.
There is too much background noise/hum.

Did you record this with onboard mics of the Zoom Q4 or with an external mic?

Thank you for your compliment
I recorded with onboard mics.

The onboard mics should have been less noisier.
Would you check the setting at page 12 and 15.
Gain should be at manual and level at high or medium.
Audio setting should be WAV 44.1 kHz/16 bit.

I have tried many combination of setting including windscreen and lo-cut filter but the sound is not significantly different.
I think I should change the place to record.

Yes, you can try putting the camera closer and setting the GAIN to MANUAL and
level to HIGH, recording WAV 44.1 kHz/16 bit.

Please don't use lo-cut or windscreen. Because in classical music the aim is to capture the sound as close to the sound that the live listener would hear.

Why I am surprised and think there is something wrong with the noise is because my Zoom Q3HD can record this with the onboard mics set to level HIGH.
As you can hear the noise level is not so bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eRLngAqUL8&list=UU-z3gjPNHBYVf0sMsRmndRg#t=67

And here is someone testing Zoom Q4 with piano.

As you can hear the sound quality is quite acceptable.

Maybe you should return your Zoom Q4 for service.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwQQ40Q4kkM

I don't think my q4 is broken. As the room is quite big and with all granite floor and many windows including air-con and spotlight noises (very bad condition for recording)
I place carpet on the floor and partition around the piano but it is still not ok.
My last sony cam sounds much worse than q4.
I think I have to test recording at other places to make sure that there is no problem with my q4.

Ps. Wow! Very great sound from your live performance.

There might be too much reverb, I understand.

But that does not explain the hiss noise sound present in the background.

You have raised the mics into recording position as seen in the last video I have posted?

Yes.
The hiss noise comes from loud air-con.

This may seem obvious, but is it possible to turn off the air-con while you record?