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#2333743 - 10/03/14 03:11 PM Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Hi , everyone ! I have a question that is actual for me: how can you observe swinging eighths , when I play for example in tempo 270 beats per minute ? At this speed triplet rhythm is no longer possible, and also accentuation on every second eighth.

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#2333747 - 10/03/14 03:23 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
You don't. You learn to use syncopation, legato playing, phrases, etc. Listen to any good drummer.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2333749 - 10/03/14 03:32 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 699
Loc: Leicester, UK
Nahum, try this ... get Transcribe for Mac or PC or Anytune Pro (for iOS and probably Android).

Load a track with Charlie Parker or whomever at a tempo above 270. A fast tempo, as you say. Slow down the track. The software will keep pitch intact. What do you hear when you slow down whatever track you might pick? Do it with Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Bud Powell ...

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#2333890 - 10/04/14 04:52 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Mark Polishook]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Thank you, Mark, that you reminded me! Once again, I sat down listen to Bad Powell. The problem, however, is : what a playing movements should be used while playing at the right tempo - a million dollar question.

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#2333918 - 10/04/14 09:05 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 699
Loc: Leicester, UK
Nahum, so it sounds like slowing down the recording got you some of the answer. What didn't it help you with?

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#2333921 - 10/04/14 09:18 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
That's a good tip Mark!

There's actually a good Wikipedia article (with examples) about swing feel.


"Swing ratios tend to get wider at slower tempos and narrower at faster tempos. Miles Davis varied his swing ratios, frequently delaying the first note of each pair of eighth notes by as much as 100 milliseconds and then synchronizing with the drummers short eighth note (the 3rd triplet)."
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2333929 - 10/04/14 10:34 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
The swing ratio, accentuation, dynamic and place on the beat are characteristic of the voice of the pianist. Each is different.
Based on the initial question, I would guess that the swing isn't quite there even at slower tempo.
A few lessons with a good teacher might do some good. I think there s a good one on this very thread!

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#2333933 - 10/04/14 10:54 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Mark Polishook]
Nahum Online   content
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Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Nahum, so it sounds like slowing down the recording got you some of the answer. What didn't it help you with?


Yes,Mark, up to a certain tempo that helps.
I am forced to open a terrible secret: trying to keep the swing, I often slip off from the right beat back . I am forced to make great efforts to stay in rhythm and not fall back; use that patent, when I start play with short phrases .
But here's an interesting phenomenon: if I ignore the swing feel and play polka rhythm, I not only did not fall behind, but once I receive the trend persecute forward. I hate it - it's just a profanation!

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#2333942 - 10/04/14 11:26 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 756
IMO, the better you understand the rules of improvisation such as target notes, guide tones, etc. and then practice these principles and how you can also break them and making it all sound good at medium tempos, then speeding up the tempo, you will automatically understand how to alter the swing eights to make the notes fit.

I find playing faster a lot easier as my understanding has improved, but I still feel I have a long way to go, but those times when I hear improvement help me stay at it.

Last idea to really get better - playing regular gigs in front of people.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2333959 - 10/04/14 12:05 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: 36251]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: 36251
IMO, the better you understand the rules of improvisation such as target notes, guide tones, etc. and then practice these principles and how you can also break them and making it all sound good at medium tempos, then speeding up the tempo, you will automatically understand how to alter the swing eights to make the notes fit.

I don't think that there is a direct connection. I am over 33 years taught the jazz harmony in Jerusalem Academy of Music , so I can calmly analyze every single note of melodic line. But it does not help. What truly helps - the distribution of breathing of phrases in rhythm ; but unfortunately up to a certain tempo.

PS Who can tell me how to do so,order to notification of a new post arrived to my e - mail?

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#2333999 - 10/04/14 02:14 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1218
Loc: uk south
My feeling is that it is usually a lack of technique that gets in the way of good rhythmic feel at fast tempos. It is just impossibly hard to do well and the level of technique required is unbelievable which is why so very few players can pull it off. It is relatively easy to have a good swing at medium tempo because the technique required is not too hard but only those with truly awesome techniques can pull it off at really fast tempos. To be in complete control of the feel it has to be almost effortless to play the notes in time and if there is tension and any struggle to make the notes then there is no way the feel is going to be good. With this in mind I think the only way forward is a lot of detailed technical work and lots of playing at fast tempos pushing it every day a little. If there was any other secret we would have found it by now.


Edited by beeboss (10/04/14 02:17 PM)
_________________________
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#2334020 - 10/04/14 03:20 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: beeboss]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: beeboss
My feeling is that it is usually a lack of technique that gets in the way of good rhythmic feel at fast tempos. It is just impossibly hard to do well and the level of technique required is unbelievable which is why so very few players can pull it off. It is relatively easy to have a good swing at medium tempo because the technique required is not too hard but only those with truly awesome techniques can pull it off at really fast tempos. To be in complete control of the feel it has to be almost effortless to play the notes in time and if there is tension and any struggle to make the notes then there is no way the feel is going to be good. With this in mind I think the only way forward is a lot of detailed technical work and lots of playing at fast tempos pushing it every day a little. If there was any other secret we would have found it by now.

Beeboss, always your posts make me ponder!
I think that the problem is somewhat different. At rapid tempos, I really straining muscles of hand , because if I release , the hand starts to slide around the keyboard like a cow on ice. At the same time happens periodically "disappearance" of one beat in mind, and finito! - I moved to other beat . Maybe it's indication of dyslexia in the easy form (I have heavy dysgraphia).


Edited by Nahum (10/04/14 11:34 PM)

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#2334076 - 10/04/14 06:34 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 756
Originally Posted By: Nahum
At rapid tempos, I really straining muscles of hand
I would suggest this if you're straining. Contemporary Piano Technique

This woman studied with Madam Chaloff. Go read about her and her students.

I would also suggest watching masterclass videos on Youtube from Hal Galper; he among other greats studied with Madam Chaloff.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2334084 - 10/04/14 06:56 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1406
Loc: uk south
I thought it was an established fact that as the tempo creeps up, the swing feel progressively gives way to something more approximating even 8s. At around 270bpm I'd expect it to be pretty close to 8s.

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#2334102 - 10/04/14 08:05 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1218
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Nahum

I think that the problem is somewhat different. At rapid tempos, I really straining muscles of hand , because if I release , the hand starts to slide around the keyboard like a cow on ice. At the same time happens periodically "disappearance" of one beat in mind, and finito! - I moved to other beat . Maybe it's indication of dyslexia in the easy form (I have heavy dysgraphia).


I always wonder why it is that when I have too much to concentrate on (fast tempo, difficult changes etc) my tendency is to rush even more which is a sure way of making the problem worse. I fight against it but it is hard to go against the natural inclination even when I can feel it happening.
Added to that at fast tempos it is much easier to switch the beat around and much harder to recover when some trouble does occur.
Whatever is going on straining the muscles doesn’t seem like a good idea though.

Nice to see you here by the way.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#2334104 - 10/04/14 08:07 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: dire tonic]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1218
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
I thought it was an established fact that as the tempo creeps up, the swing feel progressively gives way to something more approximating even 8s. At around 270bpm I'd expect it to be pretty close to 8s.


It is true that the 8s get less triplety (is that a word?) but still they have a swing somehow, the articulation and subtle accenting of notes is important for this.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#2334195 - 10/05/14 02:34 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Although there is no complete definition of what is a swing, a number of symptoms; so that when one indication disappears, the rest becomes the master. In addition to the triplet rhythm and accents on offbeat there is polyrhythmic accentuation, laid back; and for fast passages - a special technique, which was developed by Coltrane, Ornette Coleman. It is based on the fact that not all of the notes in passage are performed exact in rhythm, but only the key pitches - angular notes. Angular note can be defined as the target point of the direction of melodic line. Not accidentally purists accused Coltrane in the absence of rhythm and swing - they demanded that on each note you can dance.
It is clear that this concept creates true freedom - just listen to Jarrett; I also worked on this rhythmic technique, but it should not replace the ability to play accurately at rapid tempos.

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#2334318 - 10/05/14 01:09 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
Cudo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 136
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Hi Nahum,

the faster the tempo the less triplet feel, that's shure.

Why don't you try playing ballads and play every while a double time feel.
Playing double time feel makes you really shure in time keeping and all your muscles feel relaxed because your playing a ballad and you can go allways back from double time to normal. You won't be stressed anymore!

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#2334355 - 10/05/14 03:42 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Cudo]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: Cudo


Why don't you try playing ballads and play every while a double time feel.
Yes, Cudo, it's called count slowly and play fast.That I can do, but at a very fast tempo does not help.

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#2334397 - 10/05/14 06:39 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hi Nahum,
Do you have recordings of yourself. Maybe playing a mid tempo and then a faster one?

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#2334473 - 10/05/14 11:53 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: knotty]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: knotty
Hi Nahum,
Do you have recordings of yourself. Maybe playing a mid tempo and then a faster one?


https://soundcloud.com/jazzman1945/r-kunsman-quartet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JhKlW7y40U&feature=youtu.be

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#2335267 - 10/08/14 07:26 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: 36251]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: 36251
Originally Posted By: Nahum
At rapid tempos, I really straining muscles of hand
I would suggest this if you're straining. Contemporary Piano Technique

This woman studied with Madam Chaloff. Go read about her and her students.



I was brought up in the traditions of the Russian school of pianism . But, of course, such a grand teacher I never had.

http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthrea...ght=jazzman1945

It completely not casually that I write a lot about melodica ...

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#2335275 - 10/08/14 07:54 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: 36251]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: 36251
I would suggest this if you're straining. Contemporary Piano Technique
This woman studied with Madam Chaloff. Go read about her and her students.
I would also suggest watching masterclass videos on Youtube from Hal Galper; he among other greats studied with Madam Chaloff.

The book has some excellent points, Hal Galper's masterclasses are very interesting (you can study online with him) - another pianist/teacher is Kenny Werner. There's some video excerpts on YouTube, he has a couple of Dvd's out that are really good (also get his book: Effortless Mastery).
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2335337 - 10/08/14 11:20 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
chrisbell, thanks for the tips. I worked 33 years as a teacher at the Jazz department of Jerusalem Academy of Music, and had to know the material on psychology, technique of piano playing (Books of Neuhaus, Hoffman, De Levine, Jozhef Gat), jazz harmony, improvisation , arranging ; and all that belongs to it. Beeboss will not let me lie - I participate over 5 years in forums All About Jazz, through which I became acquainted with all that you mention, except Madame Chaloff.
However, extensive knowledge isn't insured automatically the correct performance!


Edited by Nahum (10/08/14 11:24 AM)

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#2335587 - 10/09/14 12:19 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
That can be traced to the pianist play behavior on piano at high speeds - around 340 MM - from 07:35 (Nat Pierce)
[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Ycbrwqh5w#t=52[/video]


Edited by Nahum (10/09/14 12:40 PM)

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#2335593 - 10/09/14 12:36 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Nahum
That can be traced to the pianist play behavior on piano at high speeds - around 340 MM - from 07:35 (Nat Pierce)


Thanks Nahum. These cats are swinging!! Oh man the tempos!
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2335906 - 10/10/14 12:23 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
RonDrotos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 81
Loc: New York City
Hi Nahum,

I used to ask this question a lot! My teacher Billy Taylor advised me to feel the half note pulse, instead of the quarter note pulse, at fast tempos. It seems when you can do this, the lines become freer and the music still swings, but not with as much triplet feel.
It took me years to become comfortable with this, though.
Good luck!
_________________________
Ron Drotos
rondrotos@keyboardimprov.com

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#2335936 - 10/10/14 02:37 PM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Yes, Ron, I know it for many years; and I do it constantly - with successfully losing beat.

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#2336459 - 10/12/14 02:30 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: Nahum]
rintincop Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1555
Hey Nahum,

You are swinging in those 2 clips. You are being overly critical of your swing. You are a master player. Maybe worry more about how you could get the pianos tuned better... And that quote from Wikipedia about Miles is a really good tip (100 milliseconds behind the downbeats keeps a relaxed swing feel if that' what you want, check Mehldau)...

Jazz+

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#2336470 - 10/12/14 04:18 AM Re: Keeping swing feel in very fast tempo [Re: rintincop]
Nahum Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 142
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: rintincop
Hey Nahum,

You are swinging in those 2 clips. You are being overly critical of your swing. You are a master player. Maybe worry more about how you could get the pianos tuned better... And that quote from Wikipedia about Miles is a really good tip (100 milliseconds behind the downbeats keeps a relaxed swing feel if that' what you want, check Mehldau)...

Jazz+


Thank you, rintincop! I still think it is a problem, at least for myself; and it was important to know the opinion of other professionals who have received, unlike me, professionally jazz education.

As for detuned piano, on which I played in the record: in 77th, I played in this club the whole concert, suddenly have come musicians of Stan Getz - Billy Hart and Andy Laverne. Andy tried at the end of evening to play something on this piano, but just wilted, got up and left (And I was supposed to play all evening!)

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