7/14/2003: I would like to thank everyone for their advice. I appreciate your taking the time to help me out.

After some further obsessive research and soul searching, the Pearl River is off the list. Kawai is still on there.

I am upping the budget (my wife loves this one!) and have decided to check out a new Kawai K-25. I have also become interested in trying out some Petrof uprights. It sounds like the type of piano I am looking for in terms of tone, and the cabinets are beautiful (my wife really would like this point.)
Any opinions on the 115 and 125 series? Outside of the obvious difference in the specs, are the 125's a lot better than the 115's? I'm getting all goosepimply anticipating trying these out as I have read about the "romantic" singing tone that these pianos can achieve with proper preparation.

Mike in Minneapolis
_________________________________________________
Greetings to everyone.
I am an accordionist and want to start taking piano lessons. Have been looking at all the options out there for pianos.
I have the opportunity to purchase a used Kawai US50 for $2895, delivery included (I would get this checked out by a tech for certain before purchase.) I loved the sound and the touch. Dealer would give a 5-year warrenty (I don't know the details of the warrenty yet.)
I also tried out a Pearl River U118M. I have to admit I was impressed by the sound and touch and like the idea of a new piano with a 10 year warrenty. Price: $2695 which includes delivery.
Which way should I go? I believe I would be happy with either instrument. Here are my cons for each:
Kawai: built in 1979. Older piano that costs more than the used Pearl River.
Pearl River: I am trying to look past all of the negative comments on Chinese pianos, but it appears that these have improved a great deal and are probably the best to come out of this country. Do I take a chance on them, considering the new piano warrenty?

Thanks for the feedback. This forum and Larry Fine's piano book have proven invaluable resources.

Mike in Minneapolis

As I am sure the techs will echo, condition is everything when buying a used piano. I have had Kawais for about 22 years now and have been extreemly pleased with their quality and reliability, so assuming the one you are looking at is in good shape and been used by an individual as opposed to a school or other institutional owner, I would suggest the Kawai. If you were willing to expand your budget a bit and have room for it, you might consider a Kawai KG-2 (5'10") grand in good condiditon for $4-6K if you are patient and do a little shopping.

Robert in Dallas

Piano accordion, I presume?

My wife is wanting to go the other way, and I may be forced to buy her a Weltmeister for Christmas.

On the subject of the piano....I own a Chinese grand, and have had no problems with it. Most of the Chinese verticals I've tried, just didn't turn my crank. Now rblder, one of our resident techs has some decent things to say about their Hallett Davis (Dongbei) line as a decent "starter".

But like the others, if the Kawai checks out, I believe that is the direction I would go.

When I was searching, I was leaning toward a Kawai until my budget was suddenly reduced due to a death in the family. I went with a PR and have been very happy with it so far. If the dealer has it prepped well and you have a technician you like, it can be a good starter piano.

I was prepared for the worst, having read here and elsewhere many negative comments about PR (and Chinese makes in general). But I was surprised how well the dealer had mine prepped and it has been a pleasure. I did like the advantage of having a warranty with a new piano purchase, even though I have not yet had a need to use it. A used piano may not have a warranty, unless the dealer offers it.

Now I must admit that while it has been a nice "stop gap" piano for me, I am saving for the future when I can trade up to a different piano in a couple of years.

Ultimately, you have the pick the one you're most comfortable with. Good luck with your search.

======
just a librarian, not selling anything!

The Cordigans are fine people - I've stated this before. But..... they are also Kawai dealers, and the page you link to is by the Cordigans, and is designed to get people to buy a new Kawai from them instead of a used one. If you look at Kawai's own website, you'll find that Kawai makes a big deal out of the fact thay they in fact *don't* build different pianos for different markets (but then, neither does Yamaha in truth) and say their pianos are "built for a world market". In other words, while attempting to differentiate themselves from the other Japanese maker, they show the whole "seasoned for destination" story to be nothing more than marketing spin.

Either piano is fine for the money you're talking about. Kawai pianos are not built differently for different markets, so it only matters than you have a tech check the piano out to make sure it is in good condition.

Larry,
I beg to differ. But, maybe, we should ask Kawai Don. Has he ever addressed this topic?
justme

It's part of the seasoned for destination argument.

Yamaha says it does, Kawai doesn't.

In fact, Kawai has no problem selling a tech parts for a "grey market" piano.

IMO, this leaves me with the impression Kawai has more faith in its manufacturing process than Yamaha.

That's one take on it. But I think it has more to do with Yamaha not wanting to compete with older versions of itself.

penny

True.

One of the most valuable things a salesman will get from participating in these forums is exposure to facts with all the sales pitch removed. The "seasoned for destination" stuff is a prime example. No need to ask Don, just go to the Kawai website

Kawai website and read it for yourself. It's kind of buried up, but if you click on "tone", then click on "selection of the finest woods", then click on "strength", then click on "the seasoning process", you will find the following:

Water makes up much of the weight of a freshly cut log (as much as 80%). Most of this water must be removed before the wood can be used to build a piano. Wood that contains too much moisture is subject to cracking and other structural concerns.

"Seasoning" is a process which removes moisture from wood. The wood is usually placed in large kilns during an initial de-moisturizing process. Then, seasoning begins as the wood is slowly dried until the desired Equilibrium Moisture Content (EMC) is reached.

Once the wood is properly seasoned, it can adapt to a range of climates.


The Kawai Advantage [/b]
Patience In Search Of Excellence. In the "kigarashi," or seasoning process, Kawai exercises the utmost patience in waiting for wood to reach it's time. In some cases, wood can take over a decade under the watchful eyes of Kawai's master builders to become fully seasoned.

Optimum EMC. After a long period of seasoning, wood reaches an ideal EMC at which it will not give off additional moisture (even in a very dry climate) and will only absorb nominal surface-level moisture (even in the most humid climate). Kawai waits patiently for this "equilibrium" to arrive to assure that the RX Series grand pianos will adapt to a wide range of climates.

Now - this is completely opposite of Yamaha's claim, where they claim to season wood differently for different markets. The simple fact is, they can't both be right, so one of them is lying. All you have to do to figure it out is read up on the seasoning process of wood, and you'll find that Kawai is the one who is telling the truth.

There is no such thing as "seasoned for destination". It is a ploy designed to scare people away from buying used Yamahas. The fact that Kawai salespeople use the same story amazes me, given the corporate position.

Whenever there is a discussion about gray market or bootleg pianos, there are few who can resist putting in their two cents worth. As a tuner, I have never recommended gray market, for I believe they are on the same level as any used piano. They usually need work. The real issue is how much of the needed work was the seller willing to do. As far as construction of the piano goes, I find it hard to believe there is any real difference in the piano sold in Asia, North America or Europe. I know there are those who strongly disagree. Taking into consideration pianos to be marketed to the USA, there are several different climates. I do not believe Yamaha or Kawai or any other maker takes into consideration whether a piano will be sold in the southeast or northeast or the southwest. Each area has vastly different levels of relative humidity. Though I know of at least one "importer" of gray market pianos here in NC, I have encountered few of these pianos in this area. Does anyone have a gray market piano story to shed more light on the subject.

Regards,
Ron

I'm an experienced woodworker, not a piano builder, so my commenst are more general in nature and apply to all things made of wood. The issue is not the moisture content of the wood during manufacture. Every good manufacturer either air drys stock (for two or more years) and/or kiln drys wood to get it down to the optimum moisture content. The problem is that if you take a piano assembled in a high humidity area and move it to a very low humidity area (Palm Springs for example), the moisture content will go down and there will be some shrinkage.

To combat these shrinkage problems in a world market, you use more dimensionally stable materials that are less prone to moisture change. The ABS action parts that Kawai currently uses (selectively) are an example of this approach. Metal is another obvious choice when weight and costs are not issues. Wooden parts can also be treated in several ways to prevent low ambient humidity form doing a number on them. The most direct way to do this is to simply coat them with multiple costs of varnish, lacquer, or other polymer coating. Another way is to use a compound called polyethelene glycol which will displace water in the cellular structure of wood and leave a wax like residue that renders wood very stable to ambient humidity. Yet a third way of controling the impact of moisture is to use woods that have a high mineral content such as teak.

It is impossible to control for all sources of humidity difference and still have a piano that sounds great, but if the disign and materials are carefully chosen, humidity changes should only create initial tuning problems. Once the piano has adjusted to the change in ambient humidity, it is actually quite stable in a dry environment.

Robert in Dallas

Depending on the age and overall condition of the Kawai, I would lean more in that direction. The chinese pianos have certainly improved, but they still aren't on a level anywhere close to the japanese manufacturers and some of the korean lines. In the longterm, if the piano is in good shape, and it's represented by a fair and upright (no pun intended) dealer, you'll be much happier with the Kawai.

I draw a distiction between the Yamaha and Kawai pianos made in Japan and those models made in the USA. The Japanese construction and materials are generally superior.

I would seriously consider a better Chinese piano with a USA-built Kawai or Yamaha. I do not think, however, that the best Chinese production yet competes in quality with Japanese- or Korean-made pianos.

Mike,

A lot of how good the Petrof can be, depends on the dealer, and the attention he gives it after he receives it.

But by bumping up your budget, now you've got a lot more choices. I'd certainly look at Charles Walter, Knabe, K&C Millenium, Yamaha, Young Chang PG and JP series, Baldwin, Bohemia, and Irmler(depending on what's available in the twin city area).

Have fun!

I do not think,however that the best Chinese production yet competes with the quality of Korean or Japanese made products.[/b]

Of course it does.

You just don't tell the customer it IS made in China when you sell them in places like......COSTACO !!

norbert

Larry, thanks for posting that info from Kawai's website. Here's the direct link, for any skeptics... http://www.kawaius.com/strength4.htm

And I found some humorous misinformation on Cordogan's website, for example:

"Pianos that are coming in from Japan were specifically designed and manufactured for use in Japan's own domestic market/climate." Not true...and there's no evidence to prove it.[/b]

"The wood in pianos designated specifically for Japan have twice as much humidity." Ridiculous![/b]

"Japan is the only region where Kawai and Yamaha can be certain their pianos will exist in significant levels of year-round humidity." What, no regional climates in Japan? Nobody using central A/C or heating??? Gimme a break![/b]

"By purchasing a bootlegged piano, you are not buying the same quality instrument that a new Kawai or Yamaha would offer." Ever hear of a U7? How about a KL-70W?[/b]

"There is absolutely no factory warranty coverage on these pianos." Or on ANY used Kawai sold in the USA, either![/b]

"Any dealer who is going to carry these instruments, might not hesitate fabricating an invoice showing a favorable background." Now THAT'S dirty.[/b]

John & Dianthe, I really object to you guys referring to me as a "bootlegger." There is absolutely nothing unethical or even remotely illegal about importing used goods from Japan, and our pianos are neither poor quality nor problematic. My wife and I have been successfully selling Gray Market pianos for four years. I have a friend who's been selling them for over 25 years, with hundreds of happy customers--and almost zero service calls or warranty repairs.

Admit it. When we make a sale, you lose a sale. That's why Kawai and Yamaha dealers hate us, and it's understandable. But stooping to slander is a pretty unprofessional way of meeting the challenge.

-Jimbo

Jimbo,
After researching this subject a lot further and finding out certain truths that were misrepresented to me not to be truth I've deleted my post containing the website in question.
I apologize to all for inadvertantly posting information I believed to be true.

Larry,
Thank you so much for setting me straight.

justme

Just to clarify, Jimbo -

The Kawai full 10 year warranty remains on the piano for 10 years from the original date of purchase, irrespective of who owns it. This is not true of all piano warranties. So buying an 8 year old Kawai which was originally sold in the US or Canada will give the new owner another couple of years of warranty coverage from the manufacturer. This can be important.

Don Mannino RPT
Kawai America