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#2338413 - 10/17/14 01:31 PM Something is missing...
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1310
Well, the Ivory II software arrived. The iLok arrived. After a tedius few hours feeding DVDs into a computer, the piano libraries are transferred. The editing/recording software is installed, the ivory plugins are configured. The stand is delivered and set up, and the player is ready to go.

Yet something....something is missing.



*sigh*

Tuesday. It comes on Tuesday.

In the meantime, anybody want to send me (or point me towards) a good midi file captured on a VPC1 or something similar (you know--something big with lots of detail; not just a basic barebones midi file) so I can load it in and start poking around until the keyboard gets here?


Edited by TwoSnowflakes (10/17/14 06:08 PM)
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

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#2338434 - 10/17/14 02:32 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
David Farley Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 364
Loc: Illinois
That is the lightest keyboard I've ever seen! Must be very easy to pack and move around.

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#2338436 - 10/17/14 02:36 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Giancarlo Robles Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 28
Loc: San Juan, Puerto Rico
I like the style of it. It has sort of a soft and brownish color to it. Nah, just kidding. Hope you get your VPC1 soon. I know how hard it must be not having the piano itself.
_________________________
Casio Privia PX-350 | CS-67 Stand | SP-33 Pedal Unit | Audio Technica M40x Monitor Headphones | Galaxy Instruments Vintage D and Grand Piano Collection (Steinway, Bosendorfer Vienna Grand Imperial and Bluthner German Baby Grand) VSTs

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#2338437 - 10/17/14 02:37 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: David Farley]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1310
Originally Posted By: David Farley
That is the lightest keyboard I've ever seen! Must be very easy to pack and move around.


It's the Kawai Air. It is even thinner and lighter than the MacBook Air running it. I also get infinite battery power on it, and it's cable-free!

Maaaagic!
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

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#2338455 - 10/17/14 03:17 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 263
What are you wearing? grin

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#2338462 - 10/17/14 03:44 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1310
Originally Posted By: Pete14
What are you wearing? grin


The emperor's old clothes.


Edited by TwoSnowflakes (10/17/14 06:10 PM)
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

Top
#2338480 - 10/17/14 04:54 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 263
Nice! smokin

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#2338491 - 10/17/14 05:46 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: Pete14]
Doritos Flavoured Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 157
Loc: Brazil
Originally Posted By: Pete14
What are you wearing? grin


looks like the same material as in the DP
_________________________
unlocked by keys
wordless poetry sings free
- piano music -

my piano haiku

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#2338500 - 10/17/14 06:26 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1389
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
If you go to the Pianoteq website, there is a link to MIDI files generated at an "e-piano competition".

If you're looking for classical stuff (by live pianists) to work with, that would be a good start.

. Charles

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#2338502 - 10/17/14 06:45 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: Doritos Flavoured]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1310
Originally Posted By: Doritos Flavoured
Originally Posted By: Pete14
What are you wearing? grin


looks like the same material as in the DP


(I changed the photo, ha.)
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

Top
#2338509 - 10/17/14 07:14 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: Charles Cohen]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1310
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
If you go to the Pianoteq website, there is a link to MIDI files generated at an "e-piano competition".

If you're looking for classical stuff (by live pianists) to work with, that would be a good start.

. Charles


Hmm, looks like they are all already rendered using Pianoteq, unless I'm missing something. I can't seem to access the underlying midi file.
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

Top
#2338526 - 10/17/14 08:24 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1389
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Here you go:

http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midiinstructions.asp

. Charles

PS -- note that these Disklavier MIDI files may not play "optimally" on anything other than a Disklavier. You may want to adjust the velocity map, and pedal map, of whatever software you use to render them. [The explanation is long . . . ]


Edited by Charles Cohen (10/17/14 08:26 PM)

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#2338539 - 10/17/14 09:58 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1310
Perfect, thank you!
And yes, it appears that sometimes the "map" for whatever the underlying baseline is sounds accurate and then sometimes it feels like it veers off and then it sounds very artificial.

Things that are staccato or are without pedal sound particularly artificial. And the mid-range sounds kind of hard at times. Mid to deep bass and lots of pedal sound particularly authentic. As does very high treble. Mid treble just...I'm not sure why or what makes it veer off at times.

I'm hoping that it's because of that mismatch you're referring to. I tried to adjust things to make them sound better, but I'm not entirely certain what to change as I am not that versed in WHAT is sounding wrong, only that it IS sounding wrong. Anything in the software that doesn't refer to something specifically having to do with an acoustic piano is kind of Greek to me.

If so, playing with the keyboard and the software together will greatly improve the sound, even if there still is a lot to figure out about how to best optimize everything.

Going through lots of midis with the hope that I'll eventually just figure it out by trial and error.

We have started to think about repertoire for the recording.


Edited by TwoSnowflakes (10/17/14 10:00 PM)
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

Top
#2338541 - 10/17/14 10:13 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1310
Here's a question! I'm just thinking out loud due to the Disklavier thing.

Is there a way to record performances INTO a player system?

For example, what if one were to have a Steinway B with a factory installed player system (the whole shebang with the iPad etc--I forget the brand name). Can that system record performances? And if so, can you then tweak them using Cubase or Garageband (note issues, etc) with the ultimate goal to replay them on the same Steinway?

Then you really WOULD have an authentic acoustic recording, but from a performance that has been "prepared" (not in the Schoenberg sense, haha) and simply replayed for recording purposes. I mean, I would have to learn how to mic an acoustic piano, but at that point there's no problem with taking our time because the performance is already memorialized and the piano doesn't care how many times it has to spit out the same track. It'll be perfect every time because we already made it that way in Cubase and it was recorded on that very piano.

But maybe the player systems don't have the other end of the system: the sensors to input performances.

Another idea is to use the VPC1 to record the performance but still PLAY it on the piano and record it acoustically. But then we might perhaps end up with "mismatch" issues again. But maybe there's some way to map the VPC1 with the way in which the Steinway would likely behave.


Edited by TwoSnowflakes (10/17/14 10:15 PM)
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

Top
#2338872 - 10/18/14 06:39 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1389
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Quote:

But maybe the player systems don't have the other end of the system: the sensors to input performances.


Two different systems:

1. A sensor under each key, to record a person's playing (probably what the Steinway has)

2. An _actuator_ on each key (or each hammer), to play back a pre-recorded performance from a MIDI file. That's the current version of an old "player piano", but with a MIDI file instead of a paper roll.

I think the Yamaha DisKlavier includes both systems.

Number 2 would be called "rendering", if it were done by a software piano.

A performer is constantly adjusting his/her touch to the realities of a particular instrument, whether it's acoustic or electronic. There aren't any standards (I think) for the world of digital pianos, for two important things:

a) How does the physical velocity of the key, translate into a MIDI-velocity value? That's basically a "keyboard action" question.

b) How does the volume, and tonal character, of a note change as the MIDI velocity changes? That's basically a "sound generator" question.

So you have a situation where somebody playing, and listening to Pianoteq, will produce a MIDI file that might sound fine with Pianoteq, but sound not-so-good when rendered through a "sample-based" VST. Or vice versa.

One of the things you can do (and _should_ do) is to develop a 'velocity calibration curve' with your VPC1. That's a compensation curve that translates the VPC1's MIDI velocity into a MIDI velocity that your piano software uses when it's playing.

On my PX-350, I found that I couldn't reliably produce any velocity values less than 10, or greater than 115. When I mapped the "actually-generated" range (10-115) to the full range accepted by Pianoteq (1-127), I _think_ my playing sounded better.

We could more pianists weighing in on these questions, and fewer technologists.

. Charles


Edited by Charles Cohen (10/18/14 06:41 PM)

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#2339672 - 10/20/14 11:03 PM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
rknight5 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/14
Posts: 11
Loc: Arizona
OP,
Please tell me which stand you're using.

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#2339734 - 10/21/14 03:58 AM Re: Something is missing... [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 437
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: TwoSnowflakes
Yet something....something is missing.



It's so obvious. Where are the 8" stereo monitor speakers? They are missing. Looks to me headphones are also missing....
_________________________
La musica non mai finita, solo abbandonata.
RCM Level 6 | Concone: Etude in C major | Filtz: An Ancient Tale | Schumann: Waltz in A Minor |

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#2339743 - 10/21/14 06:12 AM Re: Something is missing... [Re: rknight5]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9354
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: rknight5
OP,
Please tell me which stand you're using.


A quick Google of 'Stellar Labs' suggests it's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Stellar-Labs-555-13830-Keyboard-Adjustable/dp/B008I5QTQI

...although it's missing the snazzy logo on the side.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2340556 - 30 minutes 38 seconds ago Re: Something is missing... [Re: rknight5]
EmptySpace Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 224
Loc: Ohio
Looks like the stellar labs 555-13830 to me. I use it for my VPC1 and am truly impressed. Very solid, no movement, shaking, etc. Plenty of leg room, adjustable height. Very easy set-up. Not really meant to be portable.

I bought it for around $40 shipped from Amazon and recommend it without reservation.
_________________________
I'm a masochist. I play the piano for pleasure.

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