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I've brushed through the entire piece, and I used to be able to play it years ago, however, there was always one thing that I found the most difficult of all to play in this piece:
I've tried all sorts of different fingering, but those mordents are just a nightmare to my hands. This makes me especially sad since I love that section. When I hear professionals play it, I love the way they really bring it out and lead into the two following octaves, but I can't for the life of me play them confidently and properly.
For reference I can stretch a 10th and so far the only fingering that gives me a shred of hope is 4G-3Ab-4G etc, and 3Ab-5Bb-3Ab for the next figure. Any suggestions or insight as to what ended up working for you?
"A Sorceror of tonality; the piano is my cauldron and the music is my spell, let those who cannot hear my calling die and burn in He11."
The RH octaves don't all have to be played with RH .
If you use your LH thumb to play the lower octave notes (F, then G) immediately after the mordents, that allows you to alter the fingering for the mordents to something more comfortable. Like 5-4-3, then 2 for the top F (where the LH plays the F the octave below), then back to RH octave for the Gs after that. And similarly for the next mordent, except that I'd use 4-5-3 (as they are black keys) for that mordent.
(Edit: just realized that you can stretch to and are using 3-5-3 for the latter and find that awkward - in which case how about 3-4-2, as you can then use 1 for the G after that?)
Someone once posted a link to a video by (?) Stanislav Bunin, which showed him doing just that.
No I haven't tried that actually. I just watched Bunin playing and I see what you mean. This would involve a complete overhaul of how my muscles know how to play that measure, but I'll give it a shot. Thank you.
"A Sorceror of tonality; the piano is my cauldron and the music is my spell, let those who cannot hear my calling die and burn in He11."
I just watched the video by of Stanislav Bunin but as a matter of critique, I don't like his interpretation of the song, it seems his technique lead an interpretation, whereas it should be the other way around, a pianist's interpretation should inform his technique. The idea for the fingering for the section in question is still valid though, when I tried it I didn't need to jump my LH and RH as much as he, a more angled and flatter approach worked best for me.
To add to the post, in the documentary Horowitz The Last Romantic Horowitz uses a technique of anchoring his thumb to the lower note before the mordent then playing the mordent while keeping hand weight on the thumb. (So that the other side of the hand stays light.) Here's the link http://youtu.be/lMNkmD47j6o?t=1h14m6s. I tried this and I like it, too.
To add to the post, in the documentary Horowitz The Last Romantic Horowitz uses a technique of anchoring his thumb to the lower note before the mordent then playing the mordent while keeping hand weight on the thumb. (So that the other side of the hand stays light.) Here's the link http://youtu.be/lMNkmD47j6o?t=1h14m6s. I tried this and I like it, too.
I would do the opposite. Hold the lower G# in the pedal mostly or at least take the weight off the thumb so you can put on the G# an octave higher.
When I watch the video it doesn't look to me like Horowitz keeps the weight on his thumb. This would require much stronger 4th finger then putting the weight on the higher G#.
I would do the opposite. Hold the G# in the pedal mostly or at least take the weight off the thumb so you can put on the G# an octave higher.
This is was the technique I had been using, doing this once the thumb is lifted the weight of the hand shifts to the other side causing the 4th and 5th fingers to deal with the extra weight, rather than remaining light. Again, interpretation leads to technique and this technique wasn't working for me.
Quote
When I watch the video it doesn't look to me like Horowitz keeps the weight on his thumb. This would require much stronger 4th finger then putting the weight on the higher G#.
He is. Here is the angle: http://youtu.be/lMNkmD47j6o?t=1h15m3s. Later in the piece to get forte out of this section he shifts weight some, but his approach is as described, weight the thumb.
I would do the opposite. Hold the G# in the pedal mostly or at least take the weight off the thumb so you can put on the G# an octave higher.
This is was the technique I had been using, doing this once the thumb is lifted the weight of the hand shifts to the other side causing the 4th and 5th fingers to deal with the extra weight, rather than remaining light. Again, interpretation leads to technique and this technique wasn't working for me.
The interpretation requires an accent on the first upper G#. Thus according to your interpretation leads to technique one would want as much weight on the upper G# as possible. If you hold the 4th finger firmly it's not going to collapse. You don't want a light 4th finger if you want to play the G# loudly.
The interpretation requires an accent on the first upper G#. Thus according to your interpretation leads to technique one would want as much weight on the upper G# as possible. If you hold the 4th finger firmly it's not going to collapse. You don't want a light 4th finger if you want to play the G# loudly.
I play it the way your pic shows except I play the F after the first trill with my 3rd finger. If I ever decide to work it up again I will probably grab the lower F with my left thumb since I occasionally clip the G with my right thumb.
I would do the opposite. Hold the G# in the pedal mostly or at least take the weight off the thumb so you can put on the G# an octave higher.
This is was the technique I had been using, doing this once the thumb is lifted the weight of the hand shifts to the other side causing the 4th and 5th fingers to deal with the extra weight, rather than remaining light. Again, interpretation leads to technique and this technique wasn't working for me.
The interpretation requires an accent on the first upper G#. Thus according to your interpretation leads to technique one would want as much weight on the upper G# as possible. If you hold the 4th finger firmly it's not going to collapse. You don't want a light 4th finger if you want to play the G# loudly.
I don't debate piano technique. What I have said stands, what you have said about what I have said is wrong and is not what I was saying. Your comments above are incorrect on the whole.
I would do the opposite. Hold the G# in the pedal mostly or at least take the weight off the thumb so you can put on the G# an octave higher.
This is was the technique I had been using, doing this once the thumb is lifted the weight of the hand shifts to the other side causing the 4th and 5th fingers to deal with the extra weight, rather than remaining light. Again, interpretation leads to technique and this technique wasn't working for me.
The interpretation requires an accent on the first upper G#. Thus according to your interpretation leads to technique one would want as much weight on the upper G# as possible. If you hold the 4th finger firmly it's not going to collapse. You don't want a light 4th finger if you want to play the G# loudly.
I don't debate piano technique. What I have said stands, what you have said about what I have said is wrong and is not what I was saying. Your comments above are incorrect on the whole.
So you think you know more about technique than anyone else? If so, it should be easy to explain why my comments are wrong.
You seem to have adopted the approach that you know more than anyone about technique and therefore you're right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
So you think you know more about technique than anyone else? If so, it should be easy to explain why my comments are wrong.
You seem to have adopted the approach that you know more than anyone about technique and therefore you're right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
Huh? This thing got off track somewhere. pianoloverus, I was using the technique you described, but I won't use it for this section any longer. Not saying the original technique you suggested was wrong or no-good.
What about using the printed fingering plus a circular movement of the hand? down/left when playing the thumb, right then up when playing the mordent (allowing the thumb to relax and drift toward the rest of the hand), drop down into the octave.
Kinda the opposite of the Horowitz approach mentioned above.
What about using the printed fingering plus a circular movement of the hand? down/left when playing the thumb, right then up when playing the mordent (allowing the thumb to relax and drift toward the rest of the hand), drop down into the octave.
Kinda the opposite of the Horowitz approach mentioned above.
I've tried it, but I'm afraid my 4th and 5th fingers aren't able to trill that quickly and accentuated. I can see myself being able to do the Ab and Bb mordent with 4-5 with a little practice, but not the G and Ab mordent in the first figure.
"A Sorceror of tonality; the piano is my cauldron and the music is my spell, let those who cannot hear my calling die and burn in He11."
What about using the printed fingering plus a circular movement of the hand? down/left when playing the thumb, right then up when playing the mordent (allowing the thumb to relax and drift toward the rest of the hand), drop down into the octave.
Kinda the opposite of the Horowitz approach mentioned above.
I've tried it, but I'm afraid my 4th and 5th fingers aren't able to trill that quickly and accentuated. I can see myself being able to do the Ab and Bb mordent with 4-5 with a little practice, but not the G and Ab mordent in the first figure.
I'm not sure if it will work, but I'd suggest trying out one of these:
![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/X5KYRFK.jpg)
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