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By sensitivity, I mean the ability to play a note
slowly and lightly, and STILL have the note sound.
My Richmond has decent tone and repeatability, but
like most uprights, if you play a very ppp piece,
you can sometimes get a "ghost" note that doesn't
even sound.
Naturally, grand pianos are superior in this regard, and
in most other action characteristics.
Is there a more proper term for this ability?
Naturally, I would hope regulating for sensitivity
is not opposite that for fast trilling or repeat-ability.
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Paul678,
The only way that I know to improve it (after let-off/blow/drop/keydip/aftertouch/dampertiming etc. is correct) would be to make sure that every note has the exact same downweight/upweight/friction. Once that eveness from note to note is there, you should be able to play softer with consistency the best that an upright can do. I call it whispering.
Last edited by chernobieff; 10/21/14 12:42 AM.
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Normal regulation should allow for enough yet. Friction of course as weight, on a vertical action, is just to even things a little and have better timing of the keys.
DW UW, on a vertical, should measure Springs to be of any value.
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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The action of playing a note is analogous to throwing a tennis ball at a gong.
If there are "ghost notes" that do not play when you press the key, this is analogous to the tennis ball not hitting the gong.
There are two reasons why the tennis ball may not hit the gong.
1. You are too far away from the gong. (Excessive let off).
2. You are throwing the ball under water. (Excessive centre pin friction)
That's it. All other friction is experienced under positive force, i.e. It would have to be relatively high to have a effect on the ability to play ppp. It does have an effect on other aspects of feel though.
So, make sure you're getting 7-9 swings on the hammer and that let off is as close as possible. Be careful. Too close let off can produce a choked tone without obvious blocking.
Do you know how to check for hammer swings?
Do you know how to rep in a flange?
Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 10/21/14 06:38 AM.
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Mark,
The resistance of Springs is coming into play much for a vertical action.
I do not agree with your 7-8 oscillations. On the vertical hammer, standard is 3.5-4 (3 and a half for a medium hammer.
The thing to be avoided is lack of friction, or too supple hammer, as it will oblige to voice very soft (see Kawai verticals)
The grams escape me at the moment, should be about 4-6 grams <Renner) 2-5 gros for grand hammers. I will check it out.
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Yes, springs add water to the analogy. That is a good point.
I was taught the swings are less, but I really like a sensitive touch. 9 swings does not make noise. Also, we must consider current humidity. 9 swings in summer is not good because in winter it will be more, and then we may hear clacking.
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Isaac,
Remember that general consensus on this forum is that "swings" refer to half-oscillations. So, if the hammer swings back and forth, then
back = 1st swing
forth = 2nd swings
back = 3rd swing
forth = 4th swing
etc. etc.
So 7 to 8 swings is exactly the same as your 3.5 to 4 complete oscillations.
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
1977 "Ortega" 8' + 8' harpsichord (Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg)
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Friction level must be consistent and low, but not too low... 12-9g taper, from bass to treble.
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The action of playing a note is analogous to throwing a tennis ball at a gong.
If there are "ghost notes" that do not play when you press the key, this is analogous to the tennis ball not hitting the gong.
There are two reasons why the tennis ball may not hit the gong.
1. You are too far away from the gong. (Excessive let off).
2. You are throwing the ball under water. (Excessive centre pin friction)
That's it. All other friction is experienced under positive force, i.e. It would have to be relatively high to have a effect on the ability to play ppp. It does have an effect on other aspects of feel though.
So, make sure you're getting 7-9 swings on the hammer and that let off is as close as possible. Be careful. Too close let off can produce a choked tone without obvious blocking.
Do you know how to check for hammer swings?
Do you know how to rep in a flange? Yes, I checked for hammer swings, as per the other thread. The hammer I checked was about 9-10 swings. Can there be too many swings? Or too LITTLE friction? What do you mean by "rep in a flange"?
Last edited by Paul678; 10/21/14 03:52 PM.
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Yes. Friction should not be much lower than what I listed above. You need to calculate your UW and DW to determine friction. UW should ideally be within a 3g spread somewhere between 20-30g.
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... if you play a very ppp piece,
you can sometimes get a "ghost" note that doesn't
even sound. Does that ghost note sound when played ppp once by itself?
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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To me, a ghost note would be a note that sounds without you playing it.
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Yes, I checked for hammer swings, as per the other thread.
The hammer I checked was about 9-10 swings. Can
there be too many swings? Or too LITTLE friction? Yes, there definitely can be too little friction. Think of it like a door that swings too freely - if you're used to using a certain amount of force to open a door, when you use that same amount of force on a door that is too loose, it might fly open far faster than you intended. If you want the door to open at a certain speed, you have to have much finer control over your input, and even then, the door may just be so loose that no amount of tempering your input will give you the control you need. What do you mean by "rep in a flange"? I'm guessing he meant if you know how to pin/re-pin a flange.
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT Piano Technician, University of Nebraska-Lincoln ASB Piano Service
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Isaac,
Remember that general consensus on this forum is that "swings" refer to half-oscillations. So, if the hammer swings back and forth, then
back = 1st swing
forth = 2nd swings
back = 3rd swing
forth = 4th swing
etc. etc.
So 7 to 8 swings is exactly the same as your 3.5 to 4 complete oscillations. I dont think so How do you count for the half swing when the hammer stops vertically with 3.5 ? 1back +1forth+1back +1/2forth = 3.5 swings. up to 4.5 swings for a vertical action. 9 is more than for a grand which is about 8 swings and very free yet.
Last edited by Olek; 10/21/14 06:43 PM.
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Joined: Jan 2010
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The action of playing a note is analogous to throwing a tennis ball at a gong.
If there are "ghost notes" that do not play when you press the key, this is analogous to the tennis ball not hitting the gong.
There are two reasons why the tennis ball may not hit the gong.
1. You are too far away from the gong. (Excessive let off).
2. You are throwing the ball under water. (Excessive centre pin friction)
That's it. All other friction is experienced under positive force, i.e. It would have to be relatively high to have a effect on the ability to play ppp. It does have an effect on other aspects of feel though.
So, make sure you're getting 7-9 swings on the hammer and that let off is as close as possible. Be careful. Too close let off can produce a choked tone without obvious blocking.
Do you know how to check for hammer swings?
Do you know how to rep in a flange? Yes, I checked for hammer swings, as per the other thread. The hammer I checked was about 9-10 swings. Can there be too many swings? Or too LITTLE friction? What do you mean by "rep in a flange"? Too many swings can result in a sort of buzzing or clacking when the hammer falls back to the rest rail. Try this: flick each hammer away from the rest rail and listen to the sound it makes as it comes back and strikes the rail. Thud (or nothing) = too tight Musical wooden boing = just right Buzz or clack = too loose Warning. Do not try this unless you really want to know the answer ;-) Sorry, I meant "repin", not rep.
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Yes. Friction should not be much lower than what I listed above. You need to calculate your UW and DW to determine friction. UW should ideally be within a 3g spread somewhere between 20-30g. He is talking about centre pin friction, not action friction.
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both are useful, while the W UW measurements are adapted to a grand with its maximum relation with earth attraction, while on a vertical, the hammer is more or less in equilibrium, so extracting friction can be useful but I am not sure the data is the same than on a grand, (at 10-15 g) more probably way lower.
If DW UW >>friction allows to detect excessive friction in whippen center, I am all for it.
The SW can hardly be obtained I suppose.
friction in hammer flange must be enough so the jack does not loose contact with the butt at the lighter levels of playing (because the transmission in a vertical action is way more efficient than in grand actions, the hammer will go on its own very easily)
Last edited by Olek; 10/21/14 07:05 PM.
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Isaac, I'm confused by your post. In response to my statement that "swing" refers to only "back" or only "forth", in other words one back-and-forth oscillation equals two swings, you write: But then you write: 1back +1forth+1back +1/2forth = 3.5 swings That's exactly what I wrote! Back = 1st swing forth = 2nd swing back = 3rd swing etc. etc. (and add a half if it stops vertically) The point was: 7-9 swings equals 3.5 to 4.5 complete oscillations. Is that really too loose?
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
1977 "Ortega" 8' + 8' harpsichord (Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg)
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No, from the start I am counting as you and I was instructed to repin with 3.5 to 4.5 swings.
You are not counting half a swing (from 15:30 to 18:00 as a swing, dont you?
A swing is from 15:30 to 20:30, for instance back can be a complete swing or stop at 18:00 (0.5 swing in that case).
Is that better?
Mark Cerisano said that he is off norms there.
IH is extremely difficult to have 8 swings and no excessive play. It may happen if you just lubed the part, or if the centers are worn. It is eventually possible if one use sizing solutions.
But with standard repinning job you stay on the firm side knowing some liberty will install soon when the parts will be played.
Regards
Last edited by Olek; 10/22/14 07:58 AM.
Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Thanks for the clarification, Isaac. Our counting methods are the same.
3.5 to 4.5 swings seems quite tight to me (but I'm always eager to learn or be corrected), and this had prompted me to ask about the counting method.
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
1977 "Ortega" 8' + 8' harpsichord (Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg)
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