Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Study Group - Mozart Sonata n13 KV 333

Hey, how about we begin a study group? It's somewhat more stimulating to me participating in online events or such. When I keep to myself I tend to be in the "confort zone", playing the same pieces I already know over and over.

I never attempted a real long piece - aside from 2 well-known Beethoven adagios from his sonatas, Burgmuller, Schumann and Gurlitt stuff for beginners is my usual turf.

A Mozart sonata should be fine enough to change that: not overly long, nor extremely technically demanding. His sonata facile is much too beaten already, as is Turkish March, but someone in other forum proposed this one and after playing the first few compasses I fell in love for it:





here's a link for the score

choose an edition (I chose the first one, without fingerings)

and come in. Let's discuss our difficulties and shortcomings and how to overcome them.

The image represents what I can play after 3 days (about an hour a day) now with relative ease.

I'm fine with the articulations and tempo so far, but that "cadenza" closing the first part in the penultimate compass is kinda tough. It demands quick fingering and smooth chords...

so, how about we begin and use the image above for a week 1 goal? more? less? tell me what you think...

I love this Sonate, most of all the third part.

I can not say that I play the whole sonate without some mistakes,......but I like to play this wonderfull piece.

Difficult for me are the quick passages before the last time, the theme starts.....

I like to hear experiences of other pianoplaying musiclovers.

Best regards,
Johan B

checking the different grading systems this piece is AMEB grade 10, RCM grade 11. Way out of my league.

Way out of my league too, but I think it is a really cool idea.

I suppose I can play the first couple of bars :p

Mozart is wonderful to play and this is a great one. Although this one is deceptively difficult I think it provides a lot of technical and musical growth. It is possible to start it sooner than you might think. You might not be too satisfied with the results but you can keep returning to it in the future.

I learned this sonata when I was about 15 years old, if I remember correctly; and I've been keeping it in my repertoire; meaning: I still play it from time to time.

Beautiful piece of music; especially the developments in the first and second movement.

Technically, there is one thing that my hand disagrees with; the alternating scales, like in measure 12 of the first movement (e-g-f-a-g-bflat-a-c) and throughout the piece. I guess slow practise on these might take care of the problems.

I remember that it took me really long to master the sonata technically as a teenager. Before that, I had played a Haydn sonata (D major Hob.XVI/37), which I liked and had mastered rather quickly; but after that, the Mozart sonata was a leap. But once you can play it, it's really nice.

So to those studying it: It might be hard at first, but worth the effort.

Path,

Indeed.......the sonata is worth to study. The parts which are difficult to me....I have to polish it,....but mostly I play on.....thinking I will do that later on....

From Haydn to Mozart.......yes, sometimes a big step....

Mozart and Hayn, I never studied in my youth. At that time I was churchorganist playing Bach, Buxtehude etc. First at the age of 53 I 'discovered' the way to play Mozart, Haydn, Clementi, Kuhlau etc.

Best regards,
Johan B

well, I looked up but couldn't find info on what exact pieces these grades mean. I know my level is about Bach 2-part inventions and I'm progressing reasonably fine, though slowly, with this one. I learned 7 more compasses this night and perfected the previous ones (specially the "cadenza").

The best judge is just trying to play it. It's really not that difficult, not a myriads of voices moving in parallel, just melody and broken arpeggios and some voice interplay. Most chords present are just thirds, there are no big leaps, no long trill sections. Mozart at his most graceful and crystal clear. One should only beware of the articulations markings and tempo...

come on, guys, don't be shy... maybe tomorrow I post a mp3 work in progress...

BTW, I think I heard this sonate before, but I'm not following any video performance, just playing from score.





that's the spirit



actually, I believe Haydn last sonatas are far more technically demanding than any from Mozart. one day I'll get to Papa Haydn...

Yes, K.333 is conservatory level repertoire. RCM Level 9 includes K.330 though, so that one would have been more approachable, if you consider RCM Level 9 approachable. It's funny; when I saw the thread's subject title, my immediate reaction was, "maybe in 10 years I could join this study group!"

I do want to add K.333 is one of my favorite. In this Yamaha commercial, I do want to say to the salesman please stop talking and let me listen to the beautiful K.333 being played by this amazing pianist - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc3bqNg_Hag

Thanks.......the youtube link.....mmmmm....Yamaha.....I like it.......

Maybe those who find it challenging could just play the RH? There are so many great musical issues to play with, just in the RH of a Mozart sonata.

LH, RH, hands separate then together... whatever... you can't be sure you can't do it unless you try it.

I'm hopeful of getting to the end of page 1 tonight or at least close enough... I'll post an mp3 with progress, I've already set up an account on soundcloud

We're off and running then I will keep my comments to RH musicality for anyone who wants to do that, plus responding to whatever questions I may be able to help with...

Phrasing
The section you posted has 2 phrases, the first from pickup to m. 1 until m. 4, the second from pickup to m. 5 until end of section. The first phrase has a question in the middle (F-Eb) and an answer at the end (C-D). The second phrase interrupts itself after getting through only 2 measures, then reiterates what it just said with more animation (m. 7-8 reiterate m. 5-6). So it is like a typical 4-bar phrase that is turned into 6 bars by that reiteration.

If this were a Mozart opera, it would be excited dialogue, or maybe one character talking to an imaginary partner and saying his/her lines too Maybe it would be sung by Papageno, or Cherubino, someone with that sort of excitable and cheery energy.

The Appoggiatura
Measures 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7 all start with appoggiaturas! Wow!
The appoggiatura is a dissonant note played on a strong beat that then resolves on the next note. It is a way of enjoying dissonance and delaying the arrival of consonance. It's always good to give the dissonant note of an appoggiatura a little extra love, and since the one in m. 2 is an important note in the question part of the phrase, I'd lean on that one especially much.


Are you dividing those runs into groups of 4 notes that can be played 1324? That's a good go-to fingering for those. While the 24 is playing, the 1 can sidle over next to the 4 to get ready for the next group.

PS Mozart is awesome.

I'm glad I clicked back into this thread, Heather's commentary is great!
I love this idea, and at another point in time would be on for it, but not at the moment.
My second piece for the Schumann recital is requiring a lot of work, and I have two "challenge" pieces parked which I want to pick back up once the Schumann is at the polishing stage, so must...resist...challenge - for now, at least :-)

as quick suggestion if you want an edition without fingering, you can get the new mozart edition here:
http://dme.mozarteum.at/DME/nma/start.php?l=2

you can add the fingering using another edited edition, but for Mozart, that is the best urtext.

another cheers for the insightful analysis by Heather! wow. there's really a lot of rhethoric in the classical period, huh?

I'll see if I check the UR text, but so far been working on the that score.

Here's my WIP with the measures depicted in the image above:

https://soundcloud.com/namekuseijin-br/mozart-kv-333-wip-1


(sorry for my lame old google account :p)

still need to work that cadenza, but I'm glad how this is coming out. I'm actually a bit farther down, but still on first page. I can get to cadenza 2, but still not quite as presentable as section 1... :P

BTW, feel free to add suggestions here...

another thing that is helping with mozart, is to listen to vengerov masterclasses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st4-CcO4XwM

because he's so expressive and really helps to understand "between the lines" of mozart apparent simplicity.

Nice masterclass......comparison....basketball.....but it works......you see it and you can hear it....

Best regards
Johan B

Yeah me too. I want to follow along especially if Heather is giving pointers, but my plate is too full at the moment My second Schumann piece... I still have to learn it. Oh boy.