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It's great that you want to improvise; you just need a way to get started. To successfully learn to improvise, there are really 2 separate aspects to pursue, sometimes at the same time. The first, which is most often overlooked, is to simply start improvising, using the vocabulary you already know. Major scales, triads, simple accompaniment patterns, etc. Then the second is to learn the specific vocabulary of whatever style you're ultimately interested in, in your case, jazz. Many classical pianists jump right to jazz and sometimes it's such a different world than they're used to that the learn the chord voicings and riffs, but they don't ever become fluent. It never becomes natural. I've seen that the best approach is a well-rounded one, in which the player becomes fluent at improv by using the basics, and either at the same time or a little later, starts learning the specifics of jazz or whatever style they want. Best of luck; you'll experience music in a whole new, exciting way!
Excellent advice. I played classical piano since childhood, and my way into jazz went through ragtime, which is sheet music based. Then, I realised I could improvise in that style, using much of the rhythmic and harmonic vocabulary of that style. From there, I developed interest in the entire history of jazz piano; stride, boogie woogie, bebop and beyond. A classically trained pianist possesses a large vocabulary, and quite often, good technique. This means that the basic tools of improv are already there. Still, crossing the threshold into actual improvisation sometimes feels like a Herculean task. Just jump into it though!
If we are talking about improvisation, in nature, there is a natural order - as in other processes of human evolution:
I hear - I imitate with the voice - I play
So teach Indian music - ie improvisation in Indian traditions - for 5,000 years. With this experience, we can trust to them. These lessons can be seen in YouTube ( usually stage of singing absent, although it is very important) . Hence, is required a teacher who is playing with you and your singing .No book can do it. However, your knowledge of the theory and notation greatly simplifies and speeds up the whole process of understanding - which is also very important.
Sometimes I think we are chasing our tails. I, too, am classically trained and love jazz. For years I have done everything just about all of you suggest: Transcribing, playing along with tunes I love, purchasing all the well known jazz piano teaching aides. Truth is, there is no one answer. We all learn differently. We all have different goals. Mine is to learn jazz piano for my own compositions. I would love to learn to solo. In the privacy of my music room, I make a complete idiot of myself attempting to solo over tunes I have learned (i.e., Bill Evans' "Very Early") and even some of my own tunes. Sometimes it sounds pretty good; sometimes I want to cut my fingers off one at a time. Many years ago I had the fortune to make to acquaintance of the great Don Grolnick. He was an amazing jazz pianist - also classically trained. I asked how he learned; I asked if he could teach me and his response was that he didn't know how. H referred me to Warren Bernhardt. Another great jazz pianist. Warren was the one who suggested that the best thing I could do is purchase a DJ turntable, where I can adjust the speed of records to play in tune with my piano and play along. My point is that, again, there is no answer - there is no one way, one technique, one thing we could do and then we're playing jazz piano. Fact is, if it were that easy, we would ALL be playing brilliantly already. If I could, I would be able to solo just as great as I play Beethoven and Rachmaninoff and Debussy and everybody else classical that I love. So, I love jazz; I play my Bill Evans transcriptions; I look and learn from his voicings. I compose my own tunes, work on playing them with a trio and recording them for prosperity's sake. And, every now and then, I play something, if even just a little bit, that sounds good. Maybe when I retire in three years I'll try looking for a teacher and see if that is any better/different.
If there is reincarnation, I'll come back as the brilliant jazz pianist who wants to play classical ;-D Regardless, my heart sings because of jazz.
You're point about there is no one way is well observed. Because for everyone who says "don't to it this way" there are 10 who did it that way and prospered.
Generally speaking playing with others is among the time-honoured ways in jazz to learn. "Bandstand" experience, so to speak. But not just any bandstand. Playing with experienced players who can help to point out shortcoming and show ways to improvement. And it makes all the difference when it's continuous experience, meaning night after night and week after week and etc.
It makes a difference too when the other players on the bandstand are all working themselves on sounding as absolutely as good as they can. Because in that sort of situation things can take off like a bonfire. Everyone' collaborating, everyone's excited about the same goal ... good things just happen ... and sometimes the more experience players on the bandstand can help to point out what the good things are ... Eons ago I tenor player I worked with (the proverbial guy who played everywhere with EVERYONE) would stand behind me while I soloed. When he heard something he liked he'd yell "PLAY THAT AGAIN!" And that sort of thing exists as well on gigs where the audience really participates in the performance. The kind of gig where they're listening and really contributing to the energy of the performance.
There's a component of "acceptance" that goes along with becoming a great improviser. "Acceptance" meaning it may be digits cry to be severed one at a time (as you eloquently describe I know that feeling - the cry for severance! It's part of the learning curve.
But what doesn't work today on a bandstand or in a practice session may come back tomorrow in a totally different and successful form. So being non-judgemental about what we play–learning to be non-judgemental–and accepting that we're in a learning curve ... that's a huge skill to develop. Because over time with patience, and acceptance, we can begin to hear where we started so to speak and where we've come to. Seeing the patterns in that leads to all sorts of good things. Such as knowing what to practice, what needs more work and etc.
There's definitely a role that a good teacher can play in all of this. A good teacher can save a lot of time and identify concepts that would otherwise surface only after a lot of time. A good teacher can be a collaborator - and when necessary the voice of "acceptance." Because the "inner critic" as I call it - the inner voice that wants to severe the digits - it often needs to balanced!
That DJ turntable thingy you mentioned - those sorts of things are in software these days. Transcribe and Anytune Pro are two of the best examples. But they do more than just let you adjust tuning through speed. They can slow down a recording without changing the pitch. So those who want to transcribe can hear what needs to be heard at half speed. And those who want to play along can play along at half speed. All of that while the original pitch of the recording remains the same.
Let it be said again. You're totally correct to point out there is no one right way. Except maybe to amend that a little, staying with it ... accepting that learning take times. Over time that can lead to all sorts of amazing gains.
Thank you, Mark. You are so right about playing with a group. I did so many years ago for a very long time. I learned a lot and near the end of my playing with them I started to take chances with my playing, as in improvising. Anyhow, I do plan to play with a group again.
In the privacy of my music room, I make a complete idiot of myself attempting to solo over tunes I have learned (i.e., Bill Evans' "Very Early") and even some of my own tunes. Sometimes it sounds pretty good; sometimes I want to cut my fingers off one at a time. Many years ago I had the fortune to make to acquaintance of the great Don Grolnick. He was an amazing jazz pianist - also classically trained. I asked how he learned; I asked if he could teach me and his response was that he didn't know how.
This is because most artists are not teachers. The most brilliant piece of musical instruction I have come across was written by a guy named Simon Schott, it's a book called "Play Piano by Ear.' Check it out and see if it helps.
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My point is that, again, there is no answer - there is no one way, one technique, one thing we could do and then we're playing jazz piano.
The problem is not that it cannot be taught. The problem is most people don't know how to teach it.
The problem is most people don't know how to teach it.
There's a yet more serious problem; there are those who claim to be able to teach jazz who are unable to play it themselves or who are, at best, mediocre exponents.
This works with non-polyphonic instruments. Not so much with piano. Piano you need to learn the harmonic language first.
On the one hand, the one who plays the piano,  turns  its sound in his own voice (or at least should strive); on the other hand, the piano in jazz has never been a leading tool and absorbed that played horns and drummers ; with a third side , Bill Evans played the flute, Monk - trumpet, Keith Jarrett on flute and soprano saxophone (I recommend all students); with fourth side is not possible to cancel natural psycho physiology of musician, so that teachers are required to study it. The combination of the properties of a wind instrument and piano is carried out on melodica that I use in the last few years with all of my students. It's not theoretical - it works very powerful!
The problem is most people don't know how to teach it.
There's a yet more serious problem; there are those who claim to be able to teach jazz who are unable to play it themselves or who are, at best, mediocre exponents.
This is so true. There are basically two types of teachers who shouldn't be teaching music: those who can play but can't teach, and those who can't do either. One interesting exception was a fellow named Jimmie Amadie (whose books I recommend). He was unable to play for decades due to tendonitis. During this time he taught (and was a good at it.) I'm sure there must be a handful of other, good music teachers who, for whatever reason, are unable to play.
In any case, not to completely ignore the sarcastic and ungrounded jab in your post, do you refer to the following as being mediocre? NOTIFICATION FROM MODERATOR: The video has been removed because it does not show the Micheal Martinez who posted it, but a different Michael Martinez, who is a professional pianist. You can find his works at this site: Michael Martinez, professional pianist
We can certainly agree that the professional pianist Michael Martinez is far from mediocre.
Last edited by casinitaly; 01/22/1501:28 PM. Reason: to clarify misrepresentation
The problem is most people don't know how to teach it.
There's a yet more serious problem; there are those who claim to be able to teach jazz who are unable to play it themselves or who are, at best, mediocre exponents.
not to completely ignore the sarcastic and ungrounded jab in your post, do you refer to the following as being mediocre?
Not at all. That is a polished performance.
But tell me something, Michael. Do you claim to be the Michael Martinez who is performing in that video?
Here's enlightening video for adults (for children too) - how within three minutes reach from zero to a satisfactory for the novice jazz pianist swing feel .
In The Mood
Please forgive me for the fragments are cut short - I still can not handle the camera.
IMO in jazz education something still can change ...
The problem is most people don't know how to teach it.
There's a yet more serious problem; there are those who claim to be able to teach jazz who are unable to play it themselves or who are, at best, mediocre exponents.
not to completely ignore the sarcastic and ungrounded jab in your post, do you refer to the following as being mediocre?
Not at all. That is a polished performance.
But tell me something, Michael. Do you claim to be the Michael Martinez who is performing in that video?
The problem is not that it cannot be taught. The problem is most people don't know how to teach it.
IMO must be careful to use the loud expressions. It is unlikely that You, Michael, has statistics covering, say, 50 teachers. Perhaps among them there are just 30 who know how to teach?
The problem is not that it cannot be taught. The problem is most people don't know how to teach it.
IMO must be careful to use the loud expressions. It is unlikely that You, Michael, has statistics covering, say, 50 teachers. Perhaps among them there are just 30 who know how to teach?
Nahum, you're a known and respected poster in this forum who writes with deserved authority.
You'll have noticed that Michael Martinez also writes in this forum with an authoritative style claiming to be an 'educator'.
In an effort to justify his authority it appears he is also laying claim - not yet explicity but by juxtaposition - to be the very capable pianist Michael Martinez who has uploaded several videos to youtube.
Since MM is actively using this forum to build credibility (and hence sell his services!) it's important that posters with a potential interest not be misled. I say this with reasonable cause: I've already had PM contact with another PW member who bought his book believing him, at the time of purchase, to be the MM with a Youtube profile.
I'm an ordinary poster here (not a moderator, aspiring or otherwise!) but could I suggest at this point we resist the temptation to add any additional posts to this particular thread until Michael Martinez has commented? As yet, something doesn't quite add up.
dire tonic[ You know, I still like to give some credit . My previous experience was in AllAboutJazz; saw there advertising of several books, bought them - and was satisfied, except for one book , from the author of which I could not expect this. I even wrote a review at Amazon (and of unsuccessful book too) .But overall feeling remains positive.
... and sometimes the more experience players on the bandstand can help to point out what the good things are ... Eons ago I tenor player I worked with (the proverbial guy who played everywhere with EVERYONE) would stand behind me while I soloed. When he heard something he liked he'd yell "PLAY THAT AGAIN!" And that sort of thing exists as well on gigs where the audience really participates in the performance. The kind of gig where they're listening and really contributing to the energy of the performance.