Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Misguided expectations of rebuild?

Over my career as a technician and rebuilder, I could not count the number of rebuilt grands, Steinway and otherwise, that seemed "stillborn" in tone. The customer is unhappy with the sound. The hammers bark and die. Little sustain. The piano sounds pinched.

Though I most favor the Ronsen Low Profile Weikert felt hammers these days, I have hung my fair share of Renner Blues over the years and voiced them. I know their habits and I have come across many sets of Blues hung on rebuilds that were never voiced. These hammers can sound beautiful, but they require a lot of needling and an extended voicing protocol to sound their best. And these are hammers that, unless they are put a diet, will be very heavy. The pianos sound disappointing.

That may be the case with your piano. You can perform a simple test, Chasingrainbows. Do the pluck test. On a number of sample notes, lift the damper away from the string with one hand and firmly pluck one string with the other. Hold the note and listen to the sustain of the note. Does the note gain in volume after the attack phase? Repeat a few times to get a good sense of what you are hearing. Hold the note until the sound decays and dies.

Now play the note as you would normally with a medium blow, holding the key down as you listen to the sustain over a period of time, just as you did with the pluck test.

Compare the two. If you hear more sustain with the pluck test, then the hammers are not getting everything out of the soundboard that is there. Expert voicing can bring that out and make the piano sing.

It may be that the soundboard does have problems, but this is a start in understanding where the problems may lie. A new soundboard in a rebuild can have problems, a new soundboard in a new piano can have problems. If the work is done expertly, it should make little differences whether the shell is an old piano or a new one.

Thank you William. He showed me how to time the decay of a note. After playing a few, each had a decay time of at least 15 seconds or more. I will do the pluck test you describe. I appreciate your help.

William, how long of a sustain do I want?

Which is why I think ultimately this piano will end up being returned. If they have a showroom of instruments that are "out of tune and don't sound good" then what more proof does one need? The evidence is right there! The rebuilders I'm familiar with wouldn't dare to have a single instrument on the floor not performing at 100% knowing a prospective client is coming by. Its very convenient for the proprietor to say that the instruments that the OP observed and experienced as not being very good were not their work, but they're certain they can take a bunch of money and make a rebuilt A sound amazing. More than a little suspicious to me.

I found this video on Youtube, it's about rebuilding a Steinway. In the beginning Robert talks about the soundboard, then goes on to address the other components as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3wwW4c0nSo

Aside from Robert's very quick primmer, never EVER buy a piano based on name alone, especially if rebuilt. One has to play other instruments by the rebuilder and if the work isn't stellar run the other way. Its just that simple.

Return the piano and get your money back. The whole thing sounds like a disaster to me. Don't let them pressure you into saying everything is better after some attempts are made to fix things. Even if there is some improvement.

IMO the sustain in the bass should be a non issue on even an inexpensive piano. It' the sustain in the treble that one usually tests.

Sounds like you're trying to measure sustain in the wrong way if you're waiting until the sound completely dies out. That isn't relevant.

That's the way the technician demonstrated. what other way is there pianoloverus?

I and my tech think that one has to listen for the "useful" portion of the sustain. In other words, if the volume drops off quickly after the initial attack but still remains audible at a very low level for a long time that is not good sustain.

Just a quick update. The rebuilder came yesterday and after spending 40 minutes telling me of their "successful rebuild" stories, he tuned the piano. specific keys really stood out for me, and he agreed, voiced them, and overall, the piano produced a slightly warmer sound. However, those particular keys still sound awful to me - harsh, not balanced or resonant. He did the 15 second decay on many keys for me (playing a key, then timing the seconds that the tone could still be heard, which grew softer with each second), and said it was their finest A rebuild and many people spoke very highly of it. I told him that I was glad to hear that because if I send it back, they should have no problem selling it. It may be their best rebuild, but IMO, it still sounds like an old piano, and that is NOT the sound I was expecting.

Well, that's exactly what happened. The sound remains audible, but fades. How could it not fade over time? I'm confused.

Chasingrainbows,

Marc W is the "tuner" in Perry's book and one of the inspirations for Perry to write it. At least that is my understanding. Perry, please correct me if I am mistaken.

Marc W was the technician who brought the beauty back to Perry's piano.

Marc is a highly regarded freelance piano technician that can be hired. My suggestion would be to do just that. Marc does travel to NJ and beyond under certain circumstances.

If you are interested, I can provide contact info via PM.

Of course it fades over time. The question is how quickly does it reach an insignificant level of sound. If the sound drops off very quickly and then "sustains" at some very low level that is not good or useful. Also, the sustain testing should be done basically in various regions of the treble. I think it's a given that the bass and tenor ranges sustain adequately unless there is something seriously wrong with the piano.

How long do you have to make up your mind about returning the piano?

Old pianos, even partially rebuilt, generally
sound and feel lousy compared to newer ones.

All of your angst may have been prevented if you had
just waited, and actually PLAYED the re-built piano,
BEFORE you paid for it.

I say "may have" prevented, because you may have liked
it at the piano shop, but still have not liked it in your
home.

Still, you will have a FAR better chance if you try
it out first.

This is not entirely true and is misleading. If it were, there would be no market what so ever for rebuilt instruments, and I have seen many that sound better than a new model.

Larry, are you referring to Perry Knize? I would love that information!

I have less than 2 weeks! He only checked a few bass notes while he was here.

If you're talking about checking the sustain, then either he doesn't understand some very basic things or he's trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Either way, I'd run away.

Wow,

I am only just seeing this now. Chasingrainbows, I have no idea what you are doing with this piano at this point, but you should not be in the position you are in right now.

Some of the things you've shared simply don't make sense from a quality rebuilder. If you need help feel free to call me. I am fairly local and I will help if I can.