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Hi Paul, Wooden shanks have been just fine for the last 150 years or so. That's a pretty strong track record. Many builders in the past wanted flexible shanks. Many used Cedar and swore the tone improved. It was just that Cedar didn't age well. Others chose Hickory, on that scale, doesn't weigh more than maple and is stiffer. But in the end maple was the preferred choice. Piano makers of the past had choices, and even more today. With every human endeavor when there is a mixture of science and art, one doesn't necessarily always prevail over the other.
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Note to note voicing is more consistent because the shanks are exactly the same strength. Nearly endless customization options. They seem to require less traveling. Burning them is easier because they stay put. Center pin friction is remarkably consistent. I've never had to re-pin one. On the other hand, I just installed a new set of hammers on a set of one-year-old OEM shanks, on a concert grand, and it was a "genuine" pain in the butt to re-pin nearly every single shank/flange. For me, it's a settled issue. The only thing I'll say is that these carbon shanks need to be paired with a softer hammer (i.e. Ronsen or Isaac). Oh... and the price is no more expensive than the wood parts.
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Hi Paul, Wooden shanks have been just fine for the last 150 years or so. That's a pretty strong track record. Many builders in the past wanted flexible shanks. Many used Cedar and swore the tone improved. It was just that Cedar didn't age well. Others chose Hickory, on that scale, doesn't weigh more than maple and is stiffer. But in the end maple was the preferred choice. Greetings, I would take a small degree of issue, here. I suppose it might have to do with the definition of "just fine". Just fine doesn't meant optimum, so the question may be, in pursuit of the optimum action "Is Wood the best? and if so, Why?. Wood was the preferred material for skis, tennis racquets, and golf clubs for most of their history but nobody would consider them if performance was important . In much of my action work, performance trumps anything and everything. Another point, in the university environment, performance is measured not only in response and evenness, but durability, which is where another huge shortcoming of the wooden parts is evident. The material is not stable, and the pinning is not stable, so their regulations are not, either. Carbon fiber has changed all of that. And, it is changing piano quality, too. There is no way to build as even an action out of wooden parts, and there is no way that wooden parts are going to stay where you put them, so even the best regulation is only a transient arrangement, more like a gathering of hobos over a train yard fire, only to all be somewhere else tomorrow. Regards,
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Oh... and the price is no more expensive than the wood parts.
Really? But do you mean only the shanks? What about the rest of the action parts?
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Greetings, I would take a small degree of issue, here. I suppose it might have to do with the definition of "just fine". Just fine doesn't meant optimum, so the question may be, in pursuit of the optimum action "Is Wood the best? and if so, Why?. Wood was the preferred material for skis, tennis racquets, and golf clubs for most of their history but nobody would consider them if performance was important . In much of my action work, performance trumps anything and everything.
Another point, in the university environment, performance is measured not only in response and evenness, but durability, which is where another huge shortcoming of the wooden parts is evident. The material is not stable, and the pinning is not stable, so their regulations are not, either.
Carbon fiber has changed all of that. And, it is changing piano quality, too. There is no way to build as even an action out of wooden parts, and there is no way that wooden parts are going to stay where you put them, so even the best regulation is only a transient arrangement, more like a gathering of hobos over a train yard fire, only to all be somewhere else tomorrow. Regards,
Boy, there's an analogy I can understand as a Tennis player! There's no way the top players can win with a wooden racket. I read about how even teflon bushings, while stable themselves, are still attached to wood flanges, which are humidity sensitive. But WNG's website is a great read: Their parts are God's gift to the piano world! What a surprise they would claim this! ....but is it true? Anodized aluminum capstans that do not need polishing. Hard bushings with unchanging friction. "German Silver" pins. Synthetic buckskin outlasting the real thing. Etc, etc! How much of this is just hype, though? Talk is cheap, how is WNG actions in the real world? Or are they still too new to know yet? And interesting that their pinblocks are still made of wood!
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But WNG's website is a great read: Their parts are God's gift to the piano world! What a surprise they would claim this! ....but is it true? Anodized aluminum capstans that do not need polishing. Hard bushings with unchanging friction. "German Silver" pins. Synthetic buckskin outlasting the real thing. Etc, etc! How much of this is just hype, though? Talk is cheap, how is WNG actions in the real world? Or are they still too new to know yet? And interesting that their pinblocks are still made of wood! I don't know about hype, I have several of these composite actions in university practice rooms, where they are being played approx. 60 hours per week, maybe 1,200 hours per semester, by robust piano majors. Over the last three years, I have seen a marked reduction in the amount of service needed. (Due primarily to the lack of warping between seasons, and stable pinning.) That the hammers keep their alignment for life means that the voicing is more accurate, and when it comes time to re-surface, there is little need to completely remove the string grooves. ) another plus for longevity). So far,they are head and shoulders above the factory's and every other aftermarket supplier I have tried, and I have tried them all in these rooms… Regards,
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I want one!
Back in 1980, when my piano was made, the road cycling team I was on was sponsored by Exxon, and we were riding Exxon Graftek bikes- the first carbon-fiber bikes.
Always loved fine alloy components- precise.
Last edited by harpon; 11/18/14 11:22 AM.
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My current go-to shank/flange, capstan, and back-check for the last five years is from W,N&G. Presently they are the state of the art for those components. For all the reasons Ed Foote listed above.
The most surprising thing about them I noticed on my first set of shank/flanges was how even the tone and touch is with soft playing.
There is an older PW topic covering them if you want to search for it.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible. According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: toneman1@me.com
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Once the composite shanks can be made so that they are adjustable to the mass of the hammer, then yes. Until then, it is a compromise. Wood, too, is a compromise, but that, at the very least, is adjustable through thinning and stiffening, unlike the composite shanks.
If the question also somehow applies to the pinning: the WNG pinning is superior for the reasons stated above. BUT, that is the compromise technicians are making for being not being able to adjust the response of the shank...until something better comes along.
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Hi Paul, Wooden shanks have been just fine for the last 150 years or so. That's a pretty strong track record. Many builders in the past wanted flexible shanks. Many used Cedar and swore the tone improved. It was just that Cedar didn't age well. Others chose Hickory, on that scale, doesn't weigh more than maple and is stiffer. But in the end maple was the preferred choice. Piano makers of the past had choices, and even more today. With every human endeavor when there is a mixture of science and art, one doesn't necessarily always prevail over the other. They used cedar shanks almost exclusively in the treble of upright pianos. Never seen one in a grand, though I can't say for sure it was never done. The question is why did cedar get used? Cedar is lighter, so it was used in the treble area to decrease the mass of the assembly moving toward the strings. This improved tone in the treble. It came at the cost of being very fragile and not lasting long. WNG shanks have the same weight advantage as the cedar in the treble, as they use progressively thinner wall thickness toward the treble end of the action.
Dale Fox Registered Piano Technician Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
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Oh... and the price is no more expensive than the wood parts.
Really? But do you mean only the shanks? What about the rest of the action parts? Everything, generally speaking.
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....On the other hand, I just installed a new set of hammers on a set of one-year-old OEM shanks, on a concert grand, and it was a "genuine" pain in the butt to re-pin nearly every single shank/flange..... Be thankful that you did not also have to rebush them all as well!
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A454.7, isn't the mass of the hammer adjustable to a fine tolerance by tapering, coving, curving, removal of felt, etc.? I can control the weight of the hammer to .1 gram. The weight of the shanks is extremely consistent, so it would seem to be more advantageous to control the mass of the hammer. I don't see that there is a loss of control, and the flex remains very consistent from note to note. If you control the mass of the hammer closely and use the WNG shanks, you have built in some consistency and uniformity to the voicing before the voicing needle ever touches the hammer.
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
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Yes: the mass of individual hammers are adjustable to very fine tolerances. The problem is: each of those masses also require a certain "flex" in the shank in order to function optimally. Yes: I understand the f-word is a hot-button issue, but I don't know what else to call it.
It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, so I call it a duck--maybe it is a goose, I don't know...[shrug]...but, it is f-ing something: that is for sure.
If you whack the top of the hammers with the back of a voicer (i.e., something hard with some weight), while suspending the hammer in the air by the knuckle, you will observe both a tone and the rebound/reaction speeds (i.e., right hand senses the rebound of the whacking tool and the left hand the rebound of the hammer). There will be a zone of stiffness where everything seem to work perfectly--stiffer and weaker from that "magical zone of awesome,' and the hammer response feels and even sounds sluggish; this zone changes based on the overall mass of the hammer+shank.
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So, 443, are you saying your hammer weights are not graduated, but determined tonally for each note...thus the need to tune each shank?
I don't usually test wooden shank pitch test, but decided to compare two current actions with carefully graduated hammer weights...one WNG CF and one Tokiwa. Tapping the shank as you and Olek do, I was astounded that, given the carefully graduated hammer weights, the pitch of the CF was strikingly smooth and consistent.
The wood shanks, same graduated hammer mass, were all over the place.
Jim Ialeggio
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Ok, so it looks like WNG is the superior action these days. But from here: http://www.precisionpianoservices.com/rates.htm#compositeparts"Early use of plastic in piano actions from the 1930's and 1940's resulted in horrible degradation of the materials, to a point where they simply disintegrated when handled. This was caused by a basic lack of knowledge about the characteristics of the materials at that point in history. It rendered many pianos, mostly spinets and small uprights, completely useless, and not worth repairing. This has also resulted in giving plastics and composites a “bad-rep” in the piano industry." So given that "composites" is a euphemism for "plastic", what is different about the plastics that WNG uses versus what was tried in the 30's and 40's? That website states that the WNG actions were introduced in 2008, so it's only been 6 years. Isn't it still too early to know whether or not these actions will also disintegrate with time?
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jim ialeggio, I do lots of samples. When I am basically where I want to be tonally in terms of weight and strike point shape, I then graduate both.
Tuning the shanks is a different issue, that I don't have down to a predictable science...yet. Right now, I am just aiming for the zone (i.e., sometimes is a hit, other times it is a miss).
The tone of the shank is "something," but my gut tells me it is an indicator of something else that is going on (i.e., probably the flex).
It is good to know about your observations re: smooth pitch of the CF. How about the hammer rebound response (i.e., as felt at the knuckle, etc.)? There might even be a way to adjust this with the CF...I don't know...
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Materials science and the chemistry of "Plastic" has come a long way since the 40s. If you don't think so, then I would not recommend getting on a commercial airliner ever again. ;-}
Kawai has been using composites in their actions for 25-30+ years now.
Do you play golf, tennis, row a racing shell, ride a bike, etc? All these sports depend on composites. Time for the piano to make it into the 20th century instead of being stuck in the 19th century.
People using the "plastics are bad" sales pitch are selling old technology. Not that it is a bad piano, but how much better could it be if design and material came a few decades forward.
Dale Fox Registered Piano Technician Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
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I believe Most of the material used is a fiber reinforced nylon with the shank itself a longitudinal carbon fiber in epoxy matrix tube. These material have been used widely for at least three decades in various types of machines and structures in all sorts of environments.
You could inquire directly to W,N&G and I am sure they would give you all the information needed.
Every real advance in piano construction has been materials driven.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible. According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: toneman1@me.com
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